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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Sapphi wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
Mickey Mouse is one of their original creations, not based off anything else, and the face of their company created by their founder himself nearly 80 years ago.


It's kind of besides the point, but actually...

So your argument is that they copied themselves? After all, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit was created by Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks (who was a Disney employee at the time). I'd say if your new work is based off your old work it is still an original creation.

LVUER wrote:
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Just say 'no' to fan games and works. It isn't worth the headache or trouble, is officially illegal, and you can never make money or have a famous game of your own if you are leeching off someone else's creative work.


Can't agree 100% with this. Remember Black Rock Shooter? It's one of my most favorite.

From the same Wikipedia article you linked to:
Quote:
The 50-minute OVA is based on the song of the same name by Supercell and its accompanying music video with illustrations by Huke. Musical composer Ryo and Huke, both members of Supercell, collaborated on the project.

They had permission from the original IP holders. Meaning it does not count as a fan game or work, but is instead a licensed property.


I don't know why this is so hard for people to accept. You either have permission or you don't. If you don't, it's illegal. Black and white, cut and dried. If you want to make a "fan game" legally you must ask permission from copyright holders - which if they grant, it ceases to be a doujin work and is now instead a licensed work. So my point stands - there is no reason to make a fan game. It just wastes everyone's time and resources - time and resources that could be focused on original content - and potentially lands you in deep legal and monetary troubles.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:36 pm 
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I'm not talking about 50 minutes OVA, but rather the creation of Black Rock Shooter herself. BRS is created as fan-made of Yamaha's Vocaloid Hatsune Miku.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:49 pm 
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LVUER wrote:
I'm not talking about 50 minutes OVA, but rather the creation of Black Rock Shooter herself. BRS is created as fan-made of Yamaha's Vocaloid Hatsune Miku.

Are you sure? B★RS was a character illustration before it was a song, and the original post doesn't mention anything about Miku. I imagine the twintails are just a coincidence.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:00 pm 
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LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
I don't hold ill will against Disney for any of this, and I feel it is disingenuous to do so just because they are a large corporation. We want to favor the underdog, but we would all be offended if someone used our characters without our permission. Especially if someone grabbed one of your characters just to behead them on screen. Just because Disney is big shouldn't make them fair game for people grabbing their stuff left and right. Mickey Mouse is one of their original creations, not based off anything else, and the face of their company created by their founder himself nearly 80 years ago.

My problem with Disney is how they stole Tezuka Ozamu's work and claim it as their own. They're a thief themselves lol, if someone steal from others than he shouldn't complain if other steal from them. If only they never do stuff like this, then I will have no problem with them sueing nanashi.

LVUER wrote:
I'm not talking about 50 minutes OVA, but rather the creation of Black Rock Shooter herself. BRS is created as fan-made of Yamaha's Vocaloid Hatsune Miku.

I think BRS is Huke original creation and she originally doesn't look like Miku, but he indeed change the design to resemble Miku after Ryo create the song with vocaloid. So BRS is not Miku, she only look like her (even her ponytails are not even).

Edit: aah ... ninja-ed by J-Datie ... orz

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:07 pm 
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HikkiPanda wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
]I don't hold ill will against Disney for any of this, and I feel it is disingenuous to do so just because they are a large corporation. We want to favor the underdog, but we would all be offended if someone used our characters without our permission. Especially if someone grabbed one of your characters just to behead them on screen. Just because Disney is big shouldn't make them fair game for people grabbing their stuff left and right. Mickey Mouse is one of their original creations, not based off anything else, and the face of their company created by their founder himself nearly 80 years ago.

My problem with Disney is how they stole Tezuka Ozamu's work and claim it as their own. They're a thief themselves lol, if someone steal from others than he shouldn't complain if other steal from them. If only they never do stuff like this, then I have no problem with them sueing nanashi.

Even if Disney did rip off Tezuka*, it doesn't justify someone else doing the same thing.

*And they probably did <x<

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:14 pm 
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J. Datie wrote:
LVUER wrote:
I'm not talking about 50 minutes OVA, but rather the creation of Black Rock Shooter herself. BRS is created as fan-made of Yamaha's Vocaloid Hatsune Miku.

Are you sure? B★RS was a character illustration before it was a song, and the original post doesn't mention anything about Miku. I imagine the twintails are just a coincidence.

It wouldn't matter if it was based off Vocaloid or not originally, as it has been substantially changed and makes no reference to Vocaloid. The characters are sufficiently different that one could not be mistaken for the other. As J. Datie said, the only similar features are the twintails and elongated form, and that is likely coincidence.

If you make your own version of a character, one that is similar too, but can not be confused for, someone else's character, that isn't copyright infringement or a fan game. In that case, what you have created is an expy, and is perfectly legal.

HikkiPanda wrote:
My problem with Disney is how they stole Tezuka Ozamu's work and claim it as their own. They're a thief themselves lol, if someone steal from others than he shouldn't complain if other steal from them. If only they never do stuff like this, then I have no problem with them sueing nanashi.

Many of the similarities can be explained away - for instance, Simba is close to Kimba, but Simba was chosen because it means "lion" in Swahili. I believe Disney when they say the other similarities between the two are coincidental. Besides, the Lion King is obviously mostly drawn from Hamlet.

The stories between the two are wildly different, with the White Lion being about the struggle between humans and animals, etc. Almost no plot points are shared between the two. So then the only thing the two films share is having a lion as the protagonist with similar names. Besides, the Lion King qualifies as an expy and is thus legal, even if it was inspired or influenced by the White Lion.

And if you claim it is okay to steal from a thief, then everyone becomes a thief. We had a saying in the Marine Corps. - "There is only one thief in the Corps. Everyone else is just trying to get their stuff back." It was something of a joke, but everyone stealing gear was a real and serious problem, and they all tried to justify it by saying they had been stolen from. That's no way to solve problems and just creates more. Whether Disney has been guilty or not of copyright infringement in the past makes no difference as to whether or not Nanashi is guilty of copyright infringement in the present.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Mink wrote:
Even if Disney did rip off Tezuka*, it doesn't justify someone else doing the same thing.

*And they probably did <x<

I agree, it doesn't justify what Nanashi did. I mean, beheading Mickey? They're obviously trolls. That Tezuka incidents only prevent me to sympathize with Disney and hate them even more ^^. I hope u get my point this time

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
So my point stands - there is no reason to make a fan game. It just wastes everyone's time and resources - time and resources that could be focused on original content - and potentially lands you in deep legal and monetary troubles.

You know, the world will be pretty boring if no fan stuff is ever made ^^;. A lot of people loves fanworks too, so it's not wasting everyone's time. While I also prefer original content, you will have a harder time to try to get people to notice your existence and loves your original work. Some famous doujin group and pros start from doing fanwork during the early days of their career.

So both original works and fanworks have their own pros and cons. Both can be successful and both can waste everyone's time.

@Regarding Lion King: Disney employees admit that they're going to make a Kimba's remake and their early sketch shows a white lion. There is also similarities in their stories and scenes according too several sites and Tezuka production himself.

@Regarding a thief: I'm not saying that it's ok to steal lol ... orz. What I'm saying is, if you're a thief then you shouldn't complain if people steal from you. You know, double standard stuff and golden rule (One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:48 pm 
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HikkiPanda wrote:
You know, the world will be pretty boring if no fan stuff is ever made ^^;. A lot of people loves fanworks too, so it's not wasting everyone's time. While I also prefer original content, you will have a harder time to try to get people to notice your existence and loves your original work. Some famous doujin group and pros start from doing fanwork during the early days of their career.

So both original works and fanworks have their own pros and cons. Both can be successful and both can waste everyone's time.

I'd have to disagree. I think the world is a much more boring place when everyone insists on copying other people's works so we end up with a glut of material we've all seen before. And in the case of fan material it is often material we have seen done much better before.

And the fact that fan works are relying on the name recognition of the property they are using to get noticed only proves they are mooching off someone else's success. Getting successful off interest and clout you made by stealing other people's creativity doesn't speak highly of someone's moral character.

If someone is a great artist and storyteller they are only wasting their own time and talent by making fan work, in addition to being a thief. If they put the time and effort in they could build their own creative properties and characters and have people love that. But I guess that would be harder, so why put in that effort, right?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:17 pm 
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LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
If someone is a great artist and storyteller they are only wasting their own time and talent by making fan work, in addition to being a thief. If they put the time and effort in they could build their own creative properties and characters and have people love that. But I guess that would be harder, so why put in that effort, right?


I disagree on the case of fanwork done by people who are actual fans. In that case the answer is simple: It's done because fans love the series/characters/world. You want to share it, support it, do something with it, because you love it so much. In my opinion, that in itself is not something bad if it's not done for financial/profit reasons.

If it's just used to get more recognition and cash, then that's another thing, but keep in mind it's not always because of that or because people are 'too lazy'...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:22 pm 
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LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
I'd have to disagree. I think the world is a much more boring place when everyone insists on copying other people's works so we end up with a glut of material we've all seen before. And in the case of fan material it is often material we have seen done much better before.

I agree, If everyone insist on copying others then we will have a really really big trouble. It will be boring if all we see are the same stuff over and over again. The ideal situation will be a world where we have a good amount of both original works and fanworks.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
And the fact that fan works are relying on the name recognition of the property they are using to get noticed only proves they are mooching off someone else's success. Getting successful off interest and clout you made by stealing other people's creativity doesn't speak highly of someone's moral character.

Not everyone who make fanworks are thief. Some people just love their favorite character so much. Some doesn't like with how the original story goes (like it turn their favorite character into a loser, or their favoite pairings doesn't end up together, etc).

You can consider people who make fanworks as a thief if they mass produced their works for profit (like make it as a downloadable in the internet, etc). If they don't do those stuff than they're not a thief, just hardcore fans.

Look at comiket:
1. They sell derivative works, but the cost is pretty cheap, usually just to cover the expenses etc. The number produced is also very limited. So They're not stealing.
2. Some doujin stuff ended on the internet as a downloadable, it's free so they're not stealing.

Edit: Ninja-ed by Anna ... orz

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
If someone is a great artist and storyteller they are only wasting their own time and talent by making fan work, in addition to being a thief. If they put the time and effort in they could build their own creative properties and characters and have people love that. But I guess that would be harder, so why put in that effort, right?

Not all people are serious about their carreer as artist/writer, some do it only as a hobby. It's unfortunate, but that's the truth :(.

And I don't claim that making original work is useless and people should focus on fanworks only just because making original stuff is harder. What I said is that both original and fanworks can success and fail, both have their own pros and cons. What I said is: it's not wise to claim that one is totally useless and the other is the only solution.
1. You can make a good fanworks to boost your fame, but don't expect to get much money from it. It's fair I guess.
2. You can make a good original work and be rich fast, but you will have to try harder. It's also fair in my book.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Anna wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
If someone is a great artist and storyteller they are only wasting their own time and talent by making fan work, in addition to being a thief. If they put the time and effort in they could build their own creative properties and characters and have people love that. But I guess that would be harder, so why put in that effort, right?


I disagree on the case of fanwork done by people who are actual fans. In that case the answer is simple: It's done because fans love the series/characters/world. You want to share it, support it, do something with it, because you love it so much. In my opinion, that in itself is not something bad if it's not done for financial/profit reasons.

If it's just used to get more recognition and cash, then that's another thing, but keep in mind it's not always because of that or because people are 'too lazy'...

I agree with this ENTIRELY.

There is nothing wrong with loving something enough to make fanworks for it, whether you share it with others or not. MANY writers start out writing what could be considered fanfiction (heck, Stephen King himself admitted that some of his first stories in middle school were blatant rip offs of movies, but if he didn't write them he would not be where he is today). Many artists started by drawing their favorite cartoon or movie or book characters when they were kids. It is not a waste of time if you use it to further your own talent, use it as a stepping stone to become better at your craft. Writing that awful Self Insert fic with Doctor Who at age 16 would probably get no one anywhere, but at least it started to get them WRITING, and if they continue to do that then it would allow them to get better at writing, figure out how to make the characters more believable, more 3 dimensional, make the story and plot flow more, and maybe even just improve general grammar. Sometimes they don't want to do anything original because they don't like the idea of it, and sometimes they do it just to entertain themselves or other fans.

It is when you rely SOLELY on your fanworks to gain popularity or attempt to make money off them (or in this case, just using someone else's work for what I can't see being anything other then "hey, here's Mickey Mouse, now chop off his head") that it becomes an issue. If you do nothing but Pokemon fanart and expect that to get you somewhere in the world other than "that person who draws EPIC/AWFUL Pokemon fanart"... then you are sorely mistaken. But by drawing that fanart one could discover that, hey, they REALLY like this art thing, maybe they should try their own original stuff.

And then in time they could end up going to a good art school and becoming an animator for Dreamworks.

Basically, what I mean is fanworks may seem like a waste of time, but they can be a stepping stone to original works. Some people would never get started on original projects without doing fan stuff, while others will never once touch it in the least. Some don't want money or fame or popularity, some just have ideas they want to get out and go for the fun of it, no matter what anyone says. Doing fanwork is JUST as hard, if not harder, than original work. Because you are in control of your original work.

In fanwork, you have to keep as close to canon as humanly possible, or the majority of the fanbase will gut you like a FISH if you share it.

Fanwork, to me, is like that awful poetry I wrote in high school. No one will ever see it, and it will not get me anywhere in life. But it is experience and it can help a creative person grow, whether they wish to pursue it as a career or not, because some people honestly don't want to do that. They would rather simply delve into someone else's pool and share it with others, then potentially have one big one that they can't share at all.

I would rather share a small pool with friends than have a big one to myself, even if I have and do go after both.

It's like saying that you should never try to cook meals you see others doing and try to instead go straight for your own recipes. Some people CAN do that. Others need to learn what everyone else has done and copy them with a bit of their own twist before getting the hang of it.

Or saying that by playing different sports as a kid you wasted all the years you could have been solely focused on one, back when you didn't know which one you liked as much.

Fanworks may mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, but to some it was the first thing they had. By saying it is a waste of time is like saying all the stories that authors never publish were a waste of their career to some. Not everyone is in it for the fame or money... some rightly do not care. They want to do what they love, no matter what the medium. Sometimes it can be used to further something, others it is nothing more than a hobby to relax with. Like reading. Or playing visual novels. When you do not write or make the games yourselves.

TL;DR: Fanworks can be used to improve one's creative abilities and even some professionals have done it. It can also be nothing but fun entertainment to some. Saying it is not worth it at all is like saying any practice or fun is worth nothing in my mind. But you can disagree with me, I know that with something like this it is impossible to come to a concrete ideal or agreement. *shrug* Agree to disagree and all that.

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Last edited by Blane Doyle on Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:59 pm 
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I might be biased since I love mickey and I never really played nanashi's game--but be it that the money issued was quite big and might be a bit over, I'm completely amen with disney. About the tezuka-disney controversy, this was the first time I've known of it lol. But hey, tezuka production could have sued disney anytime they want but they didn't because matters were proven that *maybe everything was just completely coincidental(just basing my answer on wiki, I told you it's my first time knowing that). Whereas in nanashi's game, it was pretty OBVIOUS what he had used and done there. As a mickey fan, I find it extremely offensive(I'm glad I haven't played that game)---obviously, this would how people and disney would think if you actually beheaded someone adored by a lot. If I had played that game, I would personally report it myself to disney. And no offense because that, I think was quite right both in law and as person who loves mickey(told you I'm biased!).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:01 pm 
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LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
I'd have to disagree. I think the world is a much more boring place when everyone insists on copying other people's works so we end up with a glut of material we've all seen before. And in the case of fan material it is often material we have seen done much better before.

And the fact that fan works are relying on the name recognition of the property they are using to get noticed only proves they are mooching off someone else's success. Getting successful off interest and clout you made by stealing other people's creativity doesn't speak highly of someone's moral character.


Fanfiction is not a modern phenomenon. Homer's Illiad and Odyssey are essentially fanfiction, a collection of written stories based on characters from an oral tradition not original to him. The Coyote of the Choktaw is the direct ancestor of Wile E. Coyote. When done well, derivative works often improve and expand on the themes of the original work, making a more entertaining story. Hell, my big work is based on Ben Lehman's Bliss Stage.

But then again, I had the good sense to ask for - and receive - permission to use Bliss Stage as an inspiration.

The issue is not whether or not a derivative work is valuable in it's own right; it's whether or not derivative works are legal and, more importantly, used according to the wishes of the original author. And in this case, I have no sympathy for the company that was foolish to use The Mouse and official Disney voice clips as what amounts to a throwaway enemy character.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:40 pm 
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And the fact that fan works are relying on the name recognition of the property they are using to get noticed only proves they are mooching off someone else's success. Getting successful off interest and clout you made by stealing other people's creativity doesn't speak highly of someone's moral character.

If someone is a great artist and storyteller they are only wasting their own time and talent by making fan work, in addition to being a thief. If they put the time and effort in they could build their own creative properties and characters and have people love that. But I guess that would be harder, so why put in that effort, right?


Right, the doujin group CLAMP never used their popularity from making fanworks as a stepping stone to making original works, and certainly never went on to do anything interesting like Cardcaptor Sakura or Chobits. And the founder of Bungie surely didn't get started by selling the source code to a copy of Pong he had created. And of course, no one takes the fanworks of John Milton seriously.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Funnyguts wrote:
Right, the doujin group CLAMP never used their popularity from making fanworks as a stepping stone to making original works, and certainly never went on to do anything interesting like Cardcaptor Sakura or Chobits. And the founder of Bungie surely didn't get started by selling the source code to a copy of Pong he had created. And of course, no one takes the fanworks of John Milton seriously.

This is so missing a /sarcasm tag.

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Fanwork, to me, is like that awful poetry I wrote in high school. No one will ever see it, and it will not get me anywhere in life. But it is experience and it can help a creative person grow, whether they wish to pursue it as a career or not, because some people honestly don't want to do that. They would rather simply delve into someone else's pool and share it with others, then potentially have one big one that they can't share at all.

There's a fine line between fanwork and derivative work. Some of the bestselling horror/fantasy literature in Germany (Wolfgang Hohlbein's works comes to mind) is not only based on existing novels but directly builds upon settings and characters from these novels. The Warlock of Salem books, for example, directly build upon the works of H.P. Lovecraft, using the ancient unspeakable evils from Lovecraft's fiction as antagonists. This, if you want to put it like this, is Lovecraft fanfiction done professionally, and it works because there's no longer a copyright on the characters.

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