Lemma Soft Forums

Eloquently put, Argeus.

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Deviantart Account
Current Project: Our Crossing Paths [GxB] [Alternate History/Drama]

That argument can be made for *any* game in the entire world. "Some completely different pastime is free, so why should I pay for this?"

Climbing trees in my backyard is free. Why should I pay for Fallout 3?

Because... playing Fallout 3 is a totally different experience to climbing trees in my backyard?

If you are a person who makes items for sale, no matter HOW cheaply you price them, some people will give you grief about it and insist that the price should be lower. Lower the price, and you'll still get complaints. Possibly even from the same person. This does not mean that you should listen to them. Price complaints may be entirely accurate. Or they may be entirely inaccurate.

There was a 4chan thread that asked what on earth I was smoking by pricing Magical Diary at $25. My husband snarked "Dollar bills, obviously!"

The posters in that thread were so convinced that it was 'obvious' that I had done something wrong and 'no one' would ever buy it that they made no effort to investigate the truth.

Many, many, many, many items for sale are not necessities. They are not 100% rational purchases. They are not good uses of money for people who have almost no money to spare. That doesn't mean you can't build a business empire based on them.

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Hanako Games

Hence, I'd draw your attention to a couple of keywords in my argument.

I want to draw a distinction between a game you make as a hobby and a game you make as a commercial pursuit. If it is the former, there is no requirement for quality control. You are not owing anyone anything financially, everything you program, code, draw and write are entirely out of the passion of yourself and maybe a bit of altruism. The best way - IMO - that such a product can survive is to stay free and be a community effort, by gamers, for gamers.

If it is a commercial product, it's another thing entirely. The quality has to measure up to the industry standard against its competitors and in the name of consumer right. You have a responsibility to make it worthy of this standard. And you better do so too, since not a whole lot of people would fork out money for products of a quality they can easily find for free. In other words, the price of a product reflects the level of quality and content the consumer expects to find upon purchase, in comparison with existing competitors. To most amateur game makers, providing this is beyond their abilities.

Not that it can't be done (Google Mount and Blade Warband Napoleonic Wars - it started as a free mod, garnered a relatively large player base, and now just got the green light to become a commercial addon. And it is freaking glorious) but the examples are few and far between. Much more often you'd hear an indie game losing a huge portion of its players because of unpopular business decisions. Gamers who came to indie gaming looking for a free or at least reasonably cheap experience would feel cheated - betrayed, and from time to time I feel they are justified.

Oh, and this:



You're referring to what microeconomics refers to as luxury goods. Which, at the end of the day, is just that - a kind of goods. And in a market where pretty much everyone can compete in (well, everyone with programming, artistic and writing skills, but theoretically there is not much of an entry barrier) like indie games, you effectively cannot be a price setter. I daresay when complaints exists, especially when it comes to pricing and especially in large quantity, something has most probably gone wrong.

Well, that's my two cents.

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One Province Minor - 120 class variables and still counting!

Because there is no such thing as too many variables.

When complaints about the price exist that are not born out in the actual sales figures, it is NOT because something has 'probably gone wrong'.

Talk to people who are selling products and you'll find a lot of Internet Experts yelling at them that they'd make more money if they lowered their prices, and a lot of sellers who will point out that they've actually DONE that and it WAS NOT TRUE. In fact, many people make MORE sales when they RAISE their prices.

Obviously what's true in one case is not true in every case, some people do indeed do better with lower prices, and experimenting to find the sweet spot is a good idea. Strangely, a lot of Internet Experts fail to acknowledge that what's true in one case is not true in every case, and insist that their way must always be right, even if they have no idea what they're talking about.

That's why I twitch and hot-button respond to statements of so-called truth that... really aren't.

On the other hand, if nobody is buying and everybody is telling you your price is wrong, then yeah, your price is probably wrong!

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Hanako Games

I always thought the VNs were appropriately priced. Considering all the work that goes into it, I'll gladly pay 20+ dollars for a quality VN and have done so repeatedly in the past. Yeah, there were a few commercial games that I didn't buy because of their price tag, but that was because they blatantly used free art or very recognizable sprites that I had see in freeware games. Completely different case and a completely different group that I knew to avoid in the future.

Have to also chime in: quite a few times I've seen an indie group lower prices, I read later their sales didn't improve. Instead, they made less money because of the price drop. I mean, I know a few people may be happy and buy the VN because of a price drop. But it's not an easy cure, unless you manage to get on Steam where you have a huge audience who will buy the VN/game. Getting that level of exposure and advertisement on the other hand....

I've got lots of data over my indie career, and the ONLY case when lowering price makes sense, is if you get lots of exposure (which in practice right now can be achieved in only one way: getting on Steam).
Some people erroneously think that getting on itunes/android means lots of exposure, while it's the exact opposite (you're buried instantly in a sea of other 1309801million games). Most of my (very few) Android sales comes from people who already know me, or from the links on my site.
Also, my best selling games are the most expensive ones People should understand that us (developers) don't price games randomly but we have a lots of statistics and we exchange info between ourselves.

That said, I know that some people simply can't afford to pay much, and that's why I do regular sales of my games, because I think is fair (unless the game is very new).

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computer games

Made a lot of the first. Currently trying to make the second.

The problem is that in this little medium we have, people are used to playing commercial games for free, so even if you release something for free that is understandably unpolished, you will still get flak for it.

When you want to make something that will not get flak, you become obsessive about your work and it stops being fun. I'm only making a commercial game (or several) now because selling is the only way to recover my investment (the project was initially a freeware idea until I realized it will be very mediocre without more resources being put into it.) Other people in this forum have also put money into their freeware games, so-called 'investment-ware' games. We also have a few debut free releases of commercial groups... it will be very hard to compete with them unless you provide something that is different from what they provide.

Here's a demotivational quote from a recent conversation I had with one of the pro makers (I'm paraphrasing). Sorry to post this but it's something worth sharing with regards to insight to what people feel like even if they're doing a better job than most.

The bottom line of my argument is, "don't go commercial unless you are up for the challenge".

Personally, I've always found 'selling' a game - or any art created by people I know for that matter - to be an entirely foreign concept. For one thing, putting up for sale that whose quality is dubious is rather distasteful, and unfortunately appraising art is not like appraising physical goods where you can pinpoint its quality and value with due precision. For the other, I may be second-guessing here, but I've assumed that indie gamemakers do have a day job or two to pay the bills, such that any art created is only for the sake of creating something awesome.

Then again, that's my personal opinion.

On a tangent:



It's a visual novel. At the very least you'd get flak for being, if nothing else, "those perverted weaboos who make glorified porn" unless you go out of the way to make something that is not related to romance or Japan entirely. The merits of that criticism is entirely up for debate, but it is there and you'll have to live with it.

... to paraphrase a friend.

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One Province Minor - 120 class variables and still counting!

Because there is no such thing as too many variables.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following your argument from the beginning, but how is this point doesn't devalue the work of every illustrator, designer, writer - or anyone who works with creativity - as well? The previous existence of a control (say, editors or publishing houses) doesn't exactly ensure I'll get quality content when I buy a popular novel. Specially because, yes, each person has different standarts and tastes when it comes to "art". You're not wrong at that… Which is why it's the buyers decision if he/she is getting the book/game/piece of art, by the price the owner of the content/artist that created it has set. Going back to VNs, there are demos - or at least, the majority of VNs I've ever bought have demos, or screenshots in the least - for everyone to appraise the game themselves before buying. You play a bit, you see if it gets you interested enough to pay 20 bucks for it. If the art is pleasing to your eyes, if the writing and the characters are cool, you get it.

I don't think anyone sells (or buys) VNs blindly, without screenshots at least, or a bit on what the game is about. Only the iOS ones I've seen without a demo - and even those have reviews, stars, a small description and screenshots. It might be a small gamble paying for VN, but so is buying said physical goods. Who has never bought a shoe that turned out to be so uncomfortable that you couldn't use it? Even if you try it at the store, you only realize after walking five blocks with it.

... And yes, for some of us, these games *are* our full-time jobs.

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Hanako Games

Apologies for being unclear. What I did try to say is, in very simple language, "I find it uncomfortable to produce works that people can consider to be of low quality, and have the gall to ask money for it."



Which is where my original statement stops applying. Making a game with a commercial aim from the start because that's how you pay your bill =/= making a game as a hobby and then try to sell it. I was speaking from the gamemaking-as-hobby camp.

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One Province Minor - 120 class variables and still counting!

Because there is no such thing as too many variables.

You know, even if I think the final product isn't the most polished, it all comes down to one thing:

Do I think this group has potential?

In any degree, be it story or art. If this group has some kind of potential, I'll be willing to think of my payment for a less than perfect game as a sort of investment in that group. A lot of commercial groups already have a high standard of quality in my eyes, but there are a few that haven't really hit it big. Just because one VN they released isn't that professional or great does not mean their next one won't blow me away.

Just saying. I felt this way after being very pleasantly surprised by two groups whose work I had automatically dismissed beforehand. Now, I can't wait to read their next release (if they have a next release, one group seems dead set on disbanding ) Anyways, this is kind of a labor of love and I want to reward that dedication that makes these VN even possible. Even hobbyist can turn into professional VN makers with the right encouragement and growth. What really bugs me is how difficult it is for VNs to get properly recognized on the mainstream media, but eh...maybe that'll change?