No way

[Mikan]

zzz lol

[sciencewarrior]

You know, I wouldn't put a girl in the very first scene, not for A22's badly presented and somewhat misguided reasons, but simply because that puts too much focus on her. It would be much more appropriate for a game about your relationship with one specific girl, or in which you want to emphasize a certain playthrough sequence, for example, to prevent spoilers.

[Jake]

I am somewhat surprised to see how intolerant you guys are of different people

There are two parts to this that I can see. One is being intolerant of people, and the other is being intolerant of ideas.

We are not intolerant of people because they're different, we're intolerant of people in this case because they're confrontational and agressive and don't take part in polite discourse very well. To pick an example, Deji has a pretty different attitude to a lot of the older members here in several regards, but I don't remember anyone ever calling her a troll. But, you know, Deji is polite and friendly and willing to discuss things without calling people names.

And in general, I don't think the community here is intolerant of ideas because they're different, they're intolerant of ideas because they're silly. Coming onto a forum full of writers and saying that having a hook at the beginning of a story to get the reader interested is a sign of hack writing is like going onto a forum full of painters and telling them that anyone who paints with oils is a hack, because everyone knows real painters paint with their own blood.

[PyTom]

You guys are so into yourselves that when someone with a much different personality appears, you immediately accuse them of trolling or whatever and try to subdue their nature. Lemmasoft is not only against solving problems but also diversity, it seems.

I don't think we're against diversity but incivility. If A22 had come in and disagreed with mrsulu in a civil way, the discussion would have moved on just file. It's when he started using words like "shit" and "butthurt" to dismiss others opinions that the forum began to gang up against him.

I mean, just recently we had this thread:

http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... f=8&t=4073

where people expressed different opinions on obfuscating games. But everyone stayed respectful of each other, and so there wasn't any drama. In general forum drama is bad... we can move discussions forward without it.

[Deji]

To pick an example, Deji has a pretty different attitude to a lot of the older members here in several regards, but I don't remember anyone ever calling her a troll. But, you know, Deji is polite and friendly and willing to discuss things without calling people names.

That's only because I oftenly rewrite stuff several times when I'm talking/replying to somebody (I rewrote this reply like... 6 times). I learnt that being polite is the best way to keep everybody happy and avoid upseting other people for free. If I don't like somehting I try to say it in a way that would be te least offensive... It's just MY point of view anyway, and I have no right to stomp over somebody and force them to accept it 9_9;; (but I DO think everybody would be happier if they tried to avoid damaging/upseting other people with what they do =_=; )

Now, I think not being able to behave and start being verbally violent to other people, shows that a person either has a really poor education or is awfuly inmature.... or that's used to those arguments where the people who breaks the other/yells louder wins >_o;

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway, back to topic, I hope you find a good start for your game, Mikan.
I hope you were able to read what I wrote and find it helpful.. if not... oh well, I fail xD;
Good luck anyway ^^ I'll be looking forward to your game, whatever it is you decide to do with it!

[monele]

I'd suggest that if this keeps being an issue to be discussed, we transfer it to a new thread somewhere more appropriate. Mikan, I hope you understand we didn't mean harm :/

[Nicol Armarfi]

It's when he started using words like "shit" and "butthurt" to dismiss others opinions that the forum began to gang up against him.

Yes because a more vulgar vocabulary all arguments false.

If A22 had come in and disagreed with mrsulu in a civil way

I agree that the posts became less and less civil as the argument dragged on, but really the first post was rather typical minus two or three curse words.

It didn't look that way at all, since 'Guest' was clearly misrepresenting what mrsulu had said, and behaving in a very antagonistic manner.

This made me chuckle a little as the general populace of this forum is also misrepresenting/misinterpreting what A22 and I think. We agree that a hook is always/usually a good idea in a story, but that starting it off with one isn't always a good idea. I've seen many films and read a decent amount of novels that have not started with a hook, but I enjoyed them thoroughly. I believe that in the case of a school life or slice of life story like this one doesn't need to start with much of a hook, since there is little plot to those sorts of stories anyway. I agree with someone earlier who posted saying that the art could be a good hook as well, which is the reason I played through the demo in the first place.

maybe he spends too much time in antagonistic communities like 4chan

I don't understand why everyone seems to believe comparing everything to 4chan is like an invincible shield in an argument, as it does not really have anything to do with the argument itself. 4chan is not the only place on the internet where people have regular debates or forum 'drama'; these things happen frequently, for example, fanboy flamewars on gaming boards. Those things also happen quite frequently on the typical bulletin board system and are usually much, much less civilized than this argument right now.

I am honestly appalled by the reaction this community gets from one or two people posting a separate opinion in a way they disagree with. You appear to be against calling names but resort to pointing and calling people trolls as quickly as possible, which is uber hypocritical.

[Susu]

May I poke in, to say that this is getting totally out of hand? I'm all for this debate, but honestly, this is neither the time nor place (as has already been said), perhaps create another thread in general discussion or something, and then everyone can go wild. It's spamming Mikan's thread...;--;

I do, to an extent understand what you mean by "doesn't start off with a hook" and I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion. However, Nicol, you phrased it in a much better way than ACC. Regardless of his opinion, even if it did make sense (although I still don't quite get it), when you phrase things in an insulting condescending way, naturally people are going to get angry at you; I've yet to meet someone who likes to be talked down to, sweetie. Yes, every forum has it's little wars, but this one seems to not have them too often...^-^'' Again, (I know I'm being a hypocrite by posting this too), but I really think we should have a different thread for this...>>

[PyTom]

And with that, I'm going to declare that any meta-discussion should occur in a new thread under General Discussion.

[Jake]

I've seen many films and read a decent amount of novels that have not started with a hook, but I enjoyed them thoroughly.

Since this is actually on-topic - and I'm pretty interested - could you name some good examples? Because I can't think of any stories I've enjoyed, off-hand, that haven't started with some kind of hook.

Again - not always is the hook a clichéd cheap trick. It's just a thing that gets the reader interested. A thing that hints that there's a story there to be enjoyed.

I believe that in the case of a school life or slice of life story like this one doesn't need to start with much of a hook, since there is little plot to those sorts of stories anyway.

The problem with 'slice-of-life' stories is that they're pretty hard to make interesting, because... well, they're everyday happenings, and everyone has those around them all the time anyway. And you'll notice that there are very few slice-of-life-happenings media which are very long without having an actual story which runs through them anyway; they're not typically just a series of vignettes.

[Nicol Armarfi]

Jake: I guess this discussion is moving to the General forum now, as per Tom's request. I've taken initiative to create a thread: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =13&t=4092

[Jake]

Jake: I guess this discussion is moving to the General forum now, as per Tom's request. I've taken initiative to create a thread: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =13&t=4092

I think Tom was talking about the talking-about-arguments-and-rudeness discussion rather than the talking-about-stories discussion...

[Nicol Armarfi]

I see. I am bad at multitasking.

[musical74]

Just one question Mikan: how big will the finished project be as far as MB goes? Just tells me if I will be downloading it before I head off to work or not....hate dialup sometimes.

[A22]

Wow, I wasn't even trolling, but because you guys decided to discuss whether or not I was trolling for 3 pages, you have now successfully trolled yourselves.

"I do, to an extent understand what you mean by "doesn't start off with a hook" and I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion. However, Nicol, you phrased it in a much better way than ACC. "

Translation: "Lawl I agree with everything but the phrasing was not simple enough so I totally misunderstood and took it as trolling."

Don't worry, you are not alone.

<A22> Yeah nice job restating everything I was saying in the thread and then agreeing with it
<A22> After making a big deal out of how I was trolling
<renpytom> trolling is more how you say it than what you say.

Also how do you get a 3 letter word wrong? wtf ACC?