[BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama, Dark, Pyschological Horror]

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama][Dark][Suspense]

#16 Post by Shaples »

ZennyPai wrote:MC has something to lose. A normal life. And he will lose it whether or not he decides to go through with it.
Right: if he'll lose it either way, there's no tension there.
ZennyPai wrote:Stakes need to be higher and more realistic? What's worse and more realistic than the rest of your life being ruined?
I think Caveat Lector hit the nail on the head here - sure, all of that stuff would be terrible, and terrible to be forced into, but the character's focus seems to be entirely on the consequences to HIM, with little focus on the impact on the other characters. The descriptions of the female characters even make it feel like they're people he knows, but that he isn't really attached to for one reason or another - which is exactly what I mean by the stakes being low. It's set up like "Yeah, this girl was my childhood friend, but she was sick and going to die anyway, so it's sad, but not TOO sad that I had to kill her" or "My boss is always flirting with me, so it's fine if we just have sex/she was kind of a bitch to everyone else anyway, so it's not so awful that I had to kill her" etc etc. These aren't characters that the MC seems to care deeply about; they strike me as being disposable, which makes for a diminished emotional impact.

I think for a puppetmaster type scenario to work, the puppetmaster has to have a compelling reason to be manipulating someone in the way that they are (which this one doesn't seem to so far), and the person being controlled needs not only a compelling reason forcing him or her to do what they're told, but a compelling reason NOT to. If the character has no ability to fight back (ie the punishment is eternal supernatural torture), they have no agency, which deflates tension. If they have no REASON or DESIRE to fight back, like Caveat said, they come off as just as villainous as the manipulator.

I would highly recommend checking out the game Heavy Rain, either playing it or finding and watching a Let's Play, because that game does an amazing job of forcing a character to make awful, devastating choices at the hands of a puppetmaster. It's tense and emotionally heavy - no matter what choices you make, there are real and immediate consequences that weigh on you as the player as much as the character. And a lot of that tension comes from the fact that the character is forced to choose between his own well being and the well being of someone he cares about A LOT - and you have to decide how far that bond can stretch.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#17 Post by ZennyZenZen »

Before I continue....
But I also believe in giving someone the tools to help them make the game they want, and to do it well. If done right, a dark game can be really amazing and thought-provoking even if it's intended as just entertainment alone. If done poorly, a dark game can come off as insulting and trivializing, and not even the "it's just fiction" disclaimer can hold water for that.
I acknowledge this with all the comments so far. Thank you very much. I know you are all trying to help. And I love that. Thank you.

And now, a response to a response.
So if you've got your Average Joe who is given the choice to rape another woman or respect her boundaries...what does that say about the MC? You say you also have the choice not do any of it, sure, but you also mention that the MC's main concern is going to jail or ruining their reputation, and yet what stops them from committing rape on their own or holding a gun to these women's heads is "human empathy". If the MC is set up as morally questionable or outright villainous from the get-go, then it wouldn't be as much of a problem. The problem isn't that he's a guy who's caught up in a fucked-up situation and needs to do fucked-up things to survive, it's that he's a guy caught up in a fucked-up situation who places a higher value for his own life above the lives of others and yet will apparently be portrayed as a "good person" who doesn't hold a gun to these women's heads because of "human empathy" nonetheless. You say "nobody's saying what happens in these stories is good", but if you're setting him up as someone who is capable of feeling empathy and then chooses to just ignore that empathy for the sake of saving his own skin, that says something different.
Morally questionable is more correct. To me, giving the game choices is more of a 'what the player would do in that situation' more than 'what the character would do.' It's more of a freedom thing. The reality is that he does have these options. And who doesn't? You can't point out even the most morally right person and say for sure that he doesn't have the ability to immediately change his mind and go on a killing spree. We have these options and what stops us is self-control and/or whatever is left of our dignity and/or integrity.

I guess one of the points I have to address is if the mc is his own character or if the player is the mc. I want to say a little bit of both. I want it to be like, the mc had a life before you started playing the game. He made relationships with people before you started playing the game. And now that you have some control over his decisons, you are put into his shoes during his situation and it says more about the mc yes, but also a little bit something about the player. So I want to try as much as possible to put them together. It sounds difficult and maybe even contradictory, but I'll see what I can do.

The "human empathy" argument. I understand that it does sound contradictory, and the mc is dealing with these contradictory feelings. As he is holding the weapon to the victim, even with the ultimate objective of selfish survival, would he not feel that the victim did not deserve this. That he feels that all this is unfair. That he wouldn't take a second to think what it would feel like to be the person at the other end of the weapon. Those emotions are what he is going through. And those emotions do not make him a good person, but it makes him human. And I guess that's what I wanted to point out. It felt as if everyone's saying the mc is a purely cold, selfish, heartless, emotionless bastard of a human being. But in reality he is struggling, he is in chaos. He's not emotionless, he's feeling horrible. And that's what I wanted to say about empathy. Maybe i'm just using the wrong word.
Killing first gives the MC less guilt over time? And you're setting him up as a good person capable of feeling human empathy?
Yeah. Sorry about that. That was my bad, really did a bad thing talking about that part. I was thinking more of the system of the game. Say, if the game is going to have any stats and attributes. Initially, when i wrote that post, I was thinking if I should impose a system that makes the characters around you more, suspicious. And therefore will affect how you talk to the police and how you talk to your co-workers and friends. I was thinking that with some sort of guilt-meter, perhaps the game will be more challenging.

Then I decided, nahh, probably won't be a good idea. Mainly because I wouldn't know how to go about doing that. So I was speaking in a very logical sense of 'how to beat the game' rather than talking about the actual implications.

So yeah, I take blame for that. My mistake.
If Average Joe is meant to be set up as a good person who feels human empathy and would rather not kill if given the choice, then his biggest concern over killing someone should be the fact that he's killing someone, that he's taking a life, that he's potentially putting their loved ones through a lot of grief and robbing the victim of the chance to live a good life, no matter how "justified" he may be in doing so. If his biggest concern is just having difficult seducing and/or attracting someone afterwards, going to jail, and/or having his reputation ruined, sorry, but he's a sociopath. Doesn't matter what the story itself says, if his biggest concern about killing someone is how it affects his own chances at romance or a successful career, that pretty much nils any argument that he's capable of feeling empathy. Even if the story is intended to just be "entertainment", that doesn't mean people can't take away their own interpretation from it. Even if he's intended to be sympathetic, that doesn't necessarily mean he is sympathetic, if that makes sense.
Ah. That is right. I can't take away people's interpretation of it. So what am I doing? Guess I like responding to comments. Besides, by responding to comments, i'm internalizing them at the same time, taking everything into consideration. But I am human. I might fail here and there.

Anyway, supporting what I said before, yes, he is very concerned about potentially putting their loved ones through a lot of grief and robbing the victim of the chance to live a good life. And he has to deal with that in his head. I also want to know what exactly 'justified' means. Because to me it means, 'a good reason for doing a bad thing.' And i'm saying that none of this is justified because he has a bad reason for doing a bad thing. I feel as if this word 'justified' is here as if some imaginary person is defending his decisions to be right when even I'm not doing that.
But again, the problem is how we're supposed to view him in light of these things, and you keep alternating between "empathy stops him from doing these things" and "yeah, he's pretty much an asshole if he does this". Ask yourself, "what sort of character is this guy supposed to be? Is he an anti-hero, a villain protagonist, or just a poor innocent caught up in a bad situation?". Once you answer that, then it's easier to see how you can characterize him. From the sounds of things, however, and I am just saying this based off of what's been described of him so far, he sounds an awful lot like a sociopathic villain protagonist who just happens to cross paths with another villain who's slightly eviller by comparison, and is like this from the get-go.
Empathy is more of what is going through his mind and why he doesn't do the deed at break-neck speed (Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I just wanted it to rhyme). And I alternate between the two to show what's happening and what I personally think about what's happening. In a way, i'm subjecting myself to my own story and I tell my opinion of it as if it isn't. Little self-conscious? Yes. I am. And I would say "poor innocent caught up in a bad situation" and I want it to be that way and not any other. I guess I described him as blank therefore would be easier to de-humanize him.
So basically, the MC does reprehensible things, is given the choice NOT to do them and nobley sacrifice his life so no one gets hurt but also has the choice to do them and become a monster..and yet this mystery guy is the one whom we're supposed to view as "THE" bad guy, as worse by comparison? If there's not much of a difference between the hero and the villain's actions, then the story is either an intentional black-and-gray/gray-and-gray/black-and-black morality story (which could be interesting if done right), or the story has a bad case of Moral Dissonance.
It's a bit confusing when I read this part. But I'll just respond like this. Mc is human, and my game will show very human emotions, while the mystery man is doing this for plain entertainment. The mc regards human life as important and he has to deal with his decisions for the rest of his life. The mystery man just watches with a smile on his face. To him, it's all a show. And to me, that's more evil. A man who shows no sympathy at all, a man who is able to show and even pride himself in the fact that he has very little concern over what he caused. His only concern is entertainment. Wanting to see the fruits of the evil seed he planted. Just there, silently watching.

And finally...
Look, I know people are going to say "let him make the game he wants"
While I'm pretty sure that's what people are quietly implying, it seems people are more concerned of the darkness, triviality, and if it can be called controversial, aspects of the story.

EDIT: ^ Actually I take that back. It seems people are more concerned by a 'Problem' that they have with the story. I wrote it very quickly as a concept. People are pointing out the problems of the concept, and I'm addressing them. Like I said, to internalize the advice they gave. I take most of them into consideration already, but I don't mind being reminded. In fact, please remind me on what I have to do. I don't have much experience writing this kind of story so any input is much appreciated.

I like how you describe mc as Average Joe. Just for that, i'm naming him Joe. Joseph. Joe.
Last edited by ZennyZenZen on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama][Suspense]

#18 Post by Mad Harlequin »

Caveat Lector wrote:That's the other major problem I have with this: The MC himself is in a position of power over these women, too. Not physical, supernatural power, but he is still set up in a situation where he has the potential to choose which women live and which ones don't. If he decides who's the most "disposable" one, that particular character could die. And since he plans to manipulate other women into either falling in love with him so he can marry them or getting into bed with him--and possibly leaving one or the other with a broken heart once he moves on with someone else--then he's also using the power of manipulation. It doesn't seem like there's much of a difference between the MC and the mystery man.

[etc.]
Yep. That's definitely moral dissonance. The only real difference I see right now is that Mr. Mystery happens to have some control over life and death, while the mortal MC does not.

And just so we're clear, I would still be objecting if a woman were the one in the MC's position and men were the victims.
Shaples wrote:I think Caveat Lector hit the nail on the head here - sure, all of that stuff would be terrible, and terrible to be forced into, but the character's focus seems to be entirely on the consequences to HIM, with little focus on the impact on the other characters.

[...]

I think for a puppetmaster type scenario to work, the puppetmaster has to have a compelling reason to be manipulating someone in the way that they are (which this one doesn't seem to so far), and the person being controlled needs not only a compelling reason forcing him or her to do what they're told, but a compelling reason NOT to. If the character has no ability to fight back (ie the punishment is eternal supernatural torture), they have no agency, which deflates tension. If they have no REASON or DESIRE to fight back, like Caveat said, they come off as just as villainous as the manipulator.
Seconded. Right now, the concept comes across as an excuse to prop up a half-baked power fantasy. I don't care that the MC is endangered, and I don't care that the mystery man presumably has control of this situation. I have no reason to even remotely consider going along with his plot---and nor do the women in question. They're just cardboard standees. You're even using character models from an eroge. As far as we know, they're given no choice in the matter (although "choice" is a word I'd prefer not to use, what with all the manipulation going on) and that's what bothers me the most.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#19 Post by ZennyZenZen »

but the character's focus seems to be entirely on the consequences to HIM, with little focus on the impact on the other characters. The descriptions of the female characters even make it feel like they're people he knows, but that he isn't really attached to for one reason or another - which is exactly what I mean by the stakes being low. It's set up like "Yeah, this girl was my childhood friend, but she was sick and going to die anyway, so it's sad, but not TOO sad that I had to kill her" or "My boss is always flirting with me, so it's fine if we just have sex/she was kind of a bitch to everyone else anyway, so it's not so awful that I had to kill her" etc etc. These aren't characters that the MC seems to care deeply about; they strike me as being disposable, which makes for a diminished emotional impact.
I intentionally made them that way. Yes. The fact that the characters strike you as being disposable means my objective is working. But consider this, just because a character is disposable, does that justify killing them? No. It does not. I did set it up that way for you, the player, to think that way.

To think like,

"Yeah, my co-worker likes me so it seems easier to marry her,"

making you think like that means that my objective is being cleared. You just de-humanized a character just like that. And I would to. And that's what I had in mind while creating the characters. You diminished the emotional impact, because I intended it to be that way.

I don't want you to consider it to be a hard thing like killing someone close to you like your mother. I want you to consider, "Oh hey, here's an advantage to killing this character," and then after a few seconds make you feel like, "Oh god, did I really just think that?"
I think for a puppetmaster type scenario to work, the puppetmaster has to have a compelling reason to be manipulating someone in the way that they are (which this one doesn't seem to so far), and the person being controlled needs not only a compelling reason forcing him or her to do what they're told, but a compelling reason NOT to. If the character has no ability to fight back (ie the punishment is eternal supernatural torture), they have no agency, which deflates tension. If they have no REASON or DESIRE to fight back, like Caveat said, they come off as just as villainous as the manipulator.
Then that's a matter of preference on how puppetmaster type scenarios work with the both of us. I think it depends. I made my puppetmaster have no reason to make people his puppets other than for his very entertainment. Having a character like that makes me hate him. I hate my own character. God. I fucking hate this mystery man. He's powerful, and he's corrupt. Not to mention crazy.

To do something reprehensible and cause dissent just for 'fun' is the worst reason you could come up with. I go to bars, drink for 'fun'. I go to casinos, gambling for 'fun'. It's a bad reason. But the mystery douche is just like, "Hi, I cursed you. Why? Cuz I'm bored."

And he's not even the type who's like "Ah, this is boring" at any point in the story. He's the type who's just stands there, smiling, entertained by any decision you make whether it's do or die.

Okay, Joe is faced into a supernatural, otherworldly fate worse than death. Experienced it first-hand for a minute. Every second feeling like a year. Only to come back and be told to do things he would never even dream of doing. He's doing it out of fear. He doesn't want to experience that ever again. So that's part of what's going on in his mind while doing the things he's told to do, but as I said before, Joe is human and has human feelings and emotions. Joe is thinking about the life of the victim and her loved ones and her future life.

Of course Joe wants to fight back and has a very strong desire to. But after his horrifying experience, he knows that he can't do anything about it.
And a lot of that tension comes from the fact that the character is forced to choose between his own well being and the well being of someone he cares about A LOT - and you have to decide how far that bond can stretch.
I'm sorry. This may sound like a weak dick response but, doing stuff to people you're close to just seems... kinda mainstream. You see it all the time. Husband kills wife. Son kills dad. Sister kills boyfriend. It's all the same.

How about we let important characters live, and let side characters die. Oooh, goosebumps.

But I have thought about that. If MFK does well, I might make a sequel using different characters and different situations.

~~~~

Oh, and if you've placed any references and links in your comments, yes I am reading/watching them through and learning a lot. Thank you.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#20 Post by Mad Harlequin »

ZennyPai wrote:I don't want you to consider it to be a hard thing like killing someone close to you like your mother. I want you to consider, "Oh hey, here's an advantage to killing this character," and then after a few seconds make you feel like, "Oh god, did I really just think that?"
Yeah, because it's so much easier to kill a stranger. It should be a difficult thing to kill anyone. Fuck morals, right?
Of course Joe wants to fight back and has a very strong desire to. But after his horrifying experience, he knows that he can't do anything about it.
Can't, or won't? He's not even going to bother trying to consult every priest, rabbi, imam, monk, voodoo queen, and cryptozoologist in the tri-state area to find an alternate solution?

The only way for participation in this game to contain a shred of morality at all is if refusing to participate is somehow made more immoral than going along with it is.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#21 Post by Rinima »

Meh, seems a little to much like Raplay for my liking really.

Also "She has always been a moody girl, but after knowing about her condition, she has become full-blown bipolar." Sorry but what does being moody got to do with bi-polar. Moody DOES NOT = bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder is a type of depression, not a personality type. Please treat the disorder and those who suffer from it with respect.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#22 Post by ZennyZenZen »

Yeah, because it's so much easier to kill a stranger. It should be a difficult thing to kill anyone. Fuck morals, right?
I'm sorry. I worded it wrong. I meant to say what I said in the last few lines. That doing the deed to people too close to you seemed mainstream and I just want to try to write something away from that. It is a difficult thing to kill anyone. That's pretty much one of the things that will make the story emotional.
Can't, or won't? He's not even going to bother trying to consult every priest, rabbi, imam, monk, voodoo queen, and cryptozoologist in the tri-state area to find an alternate solution?

The only way for participation in this game to contain a shred of morality at all is if refusing to participate is somehow made more immoral than going along with it is.
Can't. That's how horrifying the experience was. That after waking up, you know that you have no say in this. I guess it also portrays how weak Joe is. Say you can stomach whatever horrifying situation I can come up with (which probably won't be so bad because I'm not used to writing horror). But then comes the separation between the player and Joe. Joe can't stomach it. He goes along with it.

And there's no implication or intention for any of the deeds he is about to do has any shred of morality. That's not the point. The point is to make an immoral and dark game where you know you are doing immoral things and what goes through your or Joe's head as he does so.
Moody DOES NOT = bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder is a type of depression, not a personality type. Please treat the disorder and those who suffer from it with respect.
I'm sorry, wrong words. If i had to elaborate. It means that before she knew she had the disease, she was an impulsive, moody, girl. She would be depressed about something one day, and the next day show joy like nothing happened. She would be really nice to you for an hour and then just slap you across the face and ignore you for next few hours.

Then she's become bipolar. Depressed, yes. Mentally diagnosed, yes. Having manic episodes, yes. Having depressive episodes, yes. Perhaps becoming bipolar is a symptom of the disease? Maybe.

The disease thing sounds cliche and lazy I know. But I did think it over at least this much.

~~~~

Just an observation. I like how this topic has more replies than my other project, even when there's already a demo out and all this one has is a quickly written plot and characters. Not to mention more views than the demo thread of my other project.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#23 Post by Mad Harlequin »

ZennyPai wrote:Can't. That's how horrifying the experience was. That after waking up, you know that you have no say in this. I guess it also portrays how weak Joe is. Say you can stomach whatever horrifying situation I can come up with (which probably won't be so bad because I'm not used to writing horror). But then comes the separation between the player and Joe. Joe can't stomach it. He goes along with it.
Then I would suggest that you not give him a way out, because right now, it doesn't matter how weak you say he is---he still has a way out through refusing to participate, and so do the other characters. He can make every excuse he wants, but he can't be characterized as a nice guy stuck making shitty choices if he has morally preferable options (stopping this mysterious man or killing himself for the greater good) and doesn't take them. You need to up the ante.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#24 Post by ZennyZenZen »

he can't be characterized as a nice guy stuck making shitty choices if he has morally preferable options and doesn't take them
Nobody wants to characterize him as a nice guy. I want to characterize him as a human being. And human beings have choices to all extremes.

Just knowing that you can back off at any time and do the another thing instead. Back out of attempted murder because it's not something he would do.

I would describe Joe as someone with a lot of contradictory feelings and thoughts. Maybe you don't know how that feels and it's a kind of character I want to portray. A human being with a million thoughts running through his head before he does or doesn't do.

A thought like this, "I don't want to suffer like that again, but I don't want to end this woman's life."

If he has these two contradictory thoughts, then the choice is there for him.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#25 Post by Caveat Lector »

Maybe you don't know how that feels and it's a kind of character I want to portray.
Actually, people have contradictory thoughts and feelings all the time. Not necessarily in big ways, but in much smaller ways. The kind of person who believes themselves to be implicitly honest and yet doesn't tell the cashier that they gave them more change than necessary. That sort of thing. I think the point MadHarlequin is trying to get across is that you can't portray the MC as one thing (a neutral person caught up in a bad situation) when the way you're describing him is something else (someone who serves themselves first and CAN choose to take the high road but also chooses not to). People do have moments of hypocrisy, ranging from tiny little things to major things, and also moments of cognitive dissonance, and even personality traits that clash against one another, but at the same time there are certain elements that just flat-out cancel out. One cannot call themselves an honest person if they lie to someone's face not just one time but consistently.

This War of Mine features ordinary people who, at times, are forced to do awful things to survive, and manages to pull it off convincingly. Of course, the situation in that game is a bit different from here, but it does show how people can become the complete opposite of themselves in harsh circumstances and then almost immediately regret it.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#26 Post by Mad Harlequin »

Caveat Lector wrote:I think the point MadHarlequin is trying to get across is that you can't portray the MC as one thing (a neutral person caught up in a bad situation) when the way you're describing him is something else (someone who serves themselves first and CAN choose to take the high road but also chooses not to).
Yeah, you've got it. Thanks. I'm not always as clear as I want to be.

Anyway, I spoke about this concept at length with a friend yesterday---well, it was more like worried venting, but that's neither here nor there---and it was suggested to me (thanks, friend!) that there is a way to address this moral quandary the MC is supposed to have: if any party refuses to participate, everyone is killed by the mystery man with godlike powers. In the interest of ensuring an even playing field, I think the other characters should be made aware of the rules of the "game" as well---not through the MC, but through the mystery man.

With that in mind, the blame for this situation is now squarely placed on the mystery man's shoulders, and the MC is as helpless as the other characters---who, by the way, can now be fully developed as fellow actors in this story, rather than being props. Now you can focus on writing a story about how four characters are forced to deal with this situation, exploring the consequences for all of them. (You can drop that [Controversial] tag now. You're welcome.)
I'm an aspiring writer and voice talent with a passion for literature and an unhealthy attachment to video games. I am also a seasoned typo-sniper. Inquiries are encouraged. Friendly chats are welcome.
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#27 Post by ColaCat »

I don't want to get involved in this heated debate, which is why I'll just keep this as short as possible. Killing someone is hard, naturally. But at the same time if you had to think about what's harder, killing someone you know well or someone you briefly met at the office, I think it's needless to say that killing someone you know would be more difficult.
No, I'm not saying that either is easy - I'm merely stating that if I was in that position, I think I'd end up being a coward and killing a stranger, someone you are completely emotionally disconnected from. Sure, it'll eat you up, but think how much more it would eat you up if it were someone you were extremely close to?
Also, how I see Joe is as a desperate soul. I'm not justifying his actions at all (although remember that things can be consensual), I'm just saying that once you experience something as painful and horrifying as death you don't care. Your mind goes into one massive scramble and you do things that you would never normally do. And it's only once that panic has subsided that you look back and think "did I really do that? Did I really think those awful things?"
As someone who has experienced a near death, can I just say that it's like this massive weight you feel you must lift, this immense panic, that makes you feel willing to do anything to get out of the situation.
Humans all have the capability to be truly wicked and often, when the chips are down, people will act on selfish instincts (actually a physical chemical process in your brain, it's not just in the mind) that they wish they could turn off.

Anyway, just my opinion on it all. ^_^
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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#28 Post by Rozume »

This could be an interesting and compelling story if done right, but from what I've read so far there's very little indication that this story is something other than a power-fantasy.

There are tons of issues with this concept I don't even know where to start, but I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head here. What I will add is that you don't really give us a reason to care for the MC. Why should we care about the MC and his choices? What makes him so special that this mysterious man cursed this guy out of all people? (and please, do NOT give a half-assed reason like "he was bored")

If you intended for your MC here to be a vehicle for the player, that's fine, but you have to give the player a reason to go along the ride. Otherwise, you may have to think about whether or not Average Joe here is the best person to tell your story with.

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#29 Post by Mad Harlequin »

Rozume wrote:If you intended for your MC here to be a vehicle for the player, that's fine, but you have to give the player a reason to go along the ride.
Don't worry. My friend and I took care of that part for everyone (provided that our suggestion is heeded, of course).
I'm an aspiring writer and voice talent with a passion for literature and an unhealthy attachment to video games. I am also a seasoned typo-sniper. Inquiries are encouraged. Friendly chats are welcome.
"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
— Mark Twain

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Re: [BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama,Dark,Suspense,Controversi

#30 Post by Shaples »

ZennyPai wrote:The fact that the characters strike you as being disposable means my objective is working. But consider this, just because a character is disposable, does that justify killing them? No. It does not. I did set it up that way for you, the player, to think that way.

To think like,

"Yeah, my co-worker likes me so it seems easier to marry her,"

making you think like that means that my objective is being cleared. You just de-humanized a character just like that. And I would to. And that's what I had in mind while creating the characters. You diminished the emotional impact, because I intended it to be that way.

I don't want you to consider it to be a hard thing like killing someone close to you like your mother. I want you to consider, "Oh hey, here's an advantage to killing this character," and then after a few seconds make you feel like, "Oh god, did I really just think that?"
The problem is, if the player isn't invested in the character at all, you won't have that reaction. This is sort of meta-gamey, but you can't de-humanize a character that doesn't feel like a person. Parents/family/children/spouses are often used as the victims in this kind of scenario because they come with built in emotional currency: even if the character doesn't have much substance or screen time, you as the player are invested in them because it's understood that the character is important to the PC in the same way a similar person in your own life is important to you. Without that understood connection, you need to do a lot more leg work to make the NPCs feel like people rather than props in a game, especially if you want that shock value.

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