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That I agree... He has potential... all he needs is a bit of a push. My sole intention is to point out what "I" think can be improved... That's why I went ahead and did a bit of harsh crit. Sure, he got style and is developing very well but this is a harsh world. World will not wait for someone to develop. If he's going to start developing his technique it has to be now (Sad but this is a competitive world... and as an artist, I can easily tell this guy had potential)... who knows, maybe in a few years he'll have godlike drawing skills.

I don't know about other people but my intentions are good. If I think there is something wrong based on "MY" point of view then I'll point it out with good intention. Same with my works, others pointed out my faults, decided to fix them. Both parties benefit from it... my art improved and world now gets better art than my previous crap.

I'm actually a retired professional graphic artist / storyboard artist with over 50 comics, 2 picture books, 25 illustrated childrens books, 40 TV commercials (2 under my direct supervision) and countless illustrations ranging from childrens to adult smut under my belt all in a 7 year span started pro way back in college... back off.


Which is exactly what I did.


Did you read the whole thread or just popped up to start a flame war?... but anyway. As I have mentioned earlier world is a harsh place... sure, you will receive encouragement and comfort while you were a beginner but once you stepped into the "Real World" as a pro, there woun't be any compromises... no second chances... if your work sucks, we'll just find a replacement... only the toughest will stay and live... rest just fade away... are you following me? Anyway, He's great and I look forward the day he'll surpass me, deji or any other artist... if he's overwhelmed by what I have said then he stood no chance. Sure depression follows after a harsh crit... what are you gonna do about it huh?... Sit there like an Emo and wait to be comforted or are you gonna stand up and do something about it...


Nah... All you did is write but you didn't make any sense... you didn't prove anything nor contribute anything of value except flame someone with good intentions (depends on point of view) for doing what is right...

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http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com

This is my first ever flame war on Lemmasoft and I'm kinda fired up so might as well push it a bit...

Under normal circumstances, I listen to crit... absorb the message and improve based on what I learned.

So here's "MY" crit in a nutshell...



Now lets compare it to what "YOU" have in mind...




You have a brain right?... even half a brain will easily recognize which one is the better one, the one that contains more information to narrow down faults... places he could improve instead of just a "Simple Pat on the Back"...

You know what I see here... you let your emotions take over your decision making cells. You think a simple pat on the back will solve this worlds problems. What do you think will happen if he steps up as a professional only to find out his skills are not on par with the rest of the industry... rejection, followed by depression... see... what you're doing is wrong. Period... that's not how things work. Sure there may be a few cases where crap work did become somewhat successfull... take picasso for example... Art Lovers and fans view his work as the MASTERPIECE OF THAT CENTURY but ask the average joe on what he thinks of it... A skewered piece of trash, A monkey draw that, is he drunk and so forth... Sooner or later the artist will have to sell his work and by selling it means it has to conform to a certain standard.

I hope I got my message clear... whew... so this is what a flamewar is...

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http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com

Oh god, I laughed so hard at this flamewar xDDDD

Well, * tries to get himself together * Teluna really have a cute style here, but it has its flaws on some points Lucy already pointed out =D

Practice harder everyday, and you'll be a great artist for sure. Your anatomics notions are a bit off, though, so try to take a look at anatomy books or even at photos or such (the problem of photos being you would have to get naked pictures, and that wouldn't work ever for me... but we're talking 'bout you so it's an idea).

And hm... Lucy's artwork (at least this one) is the standard-anime-like, but this doesn't mean it doesn't have its own appeal. No matter how hard a people try to copy other person's style, it'll never be the same thing, since peoples have their own feelings they put into it and their own technics/mannerisms, so copying other persons style until developing your own (or even with your own style developed) its fine, you'll always learn something from it ^.-

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「A.RK Programmer•Trying to be a DeviantArtist」


Yep, I'm back after almost dying at PyWeek

Awright! Cut it out, children. I'm gonna take a neutral stance here and point out a few things. While I don't condone trolling, our liddle guest does bring up some valid points.

1. I don't remember Teluna ever stating that he wished to draw in the generic anime style that mugen is pushing, though undeniably, the anatomy tips are always useful.

2. No matter what the level of the artist, I do think it's rude to redline/deface a drawing to show where said artist may have committed some errors unless: a. the artist asked for criticism himself. b. the artist agreed to allow other posters to use his work as an example for a semi-tutorial. Either way, it would be polite to say something along the lines of "If you don't mind me doing so..." etc. before proceeding with a redline or any other sort of error correction prior to the artist's consent.

3. The argument about the "real world" being different seems kinda silly to me. I don't think Teluna ever stated whether he wanted to become a professional or not; that was never the purpose of the original post, so bringing that up now seems kinda pointless - other than the fact that you wanted to win an argument. (sorry, mugen... just stating what I see.)

Also, I think our guest over there is just here to troll, so best not to get too worked up about it.

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How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

I'm glad you liked it, Teluna

Now... redrawing somebody's character in your own style is called fanart, and I doubt it helps other people improve their own style much unless they want to draw in a similar style or something.

And a friendly pat on the back doesn't hurt anybody and encourages people to keep on practicing and improving. It's not as we're telling them "Wow, awesome professional work! Stop posting stuff here and go publish something already!". It's up to the "artist" to find their style, their pace and their path for improvement; one only can give pointers.

Now, back to topic...

I think there are a couple of things you might want to revise on the detective (in case you overlooked them, in case they were intentional, don't mind me).
The bent arm's length is too long, compared to the other arm, and the hand's position holding the... thing he's smoking/eating/something looks a bit weird and I think it could be improved by looking at references.

And here's my take on the detective's shading. The streetlight was so tempting I made a quick attempt myself (without the base coloring, though) It was fun! X3
Hope it helps!

_________________

When drawing something, anything, USE REFERENCES!! Use your Google-fu!

Don't trust your memory, and don't blindly trust what other people teaches you either.

Research, observation, analysis, experimentation and practice is the key! (:

Yea... and a very successful one...


Hmm... Though my intention was good... now that I think about it... maybe I was indeed rude... (My Apologies)


Hey!... this is my first flame war and this little fucker suddenly popped up questioning my hard earned credentials. I still have my pride as a pro and will protect/reclaim it whenever I see it fit... you'll probably feel the same way too if you're on my shoes.


True, but used the wrong way, it will only make you somewhat happy but that doesn't solve the underlying problem...


There is a saying that the only person in this world who could see an artist's potential is another artist and that holds true (to me) I saw Teluna's work, posted on Lemmasoft asking for a crit on how to improve. So that's exactly what I did... I examined it carefully and came to the conclusion that this guy once he overcome some of his errors will be a good artist in the near future. nfortunatelly, my way of crit is a bit too harsh for a selected few and typed like a monkey critisizing my method because it's too rude for his standards... and yet he didn't offer anything in return... he just... typed like a monkey.

Oh! Back to topic...

Teluna?... you in here?...

I'm sorry if I screwed up your pics without your permission... but I have a good reason for it.

I'm sorry for being rude... I am not a people pleaser, when I see what I think maybe something that can be improved... I just point it.

Yes you have a cute style developing there but push things a bit further by taking anatomy into consideration. Draw the character naked first... this way you could easily visualize space and placement... the way the cloth wraps...

"POOF" (Hey!... don't let my comments bog you down! FIGHTO...)

P.S. FUCK YOU TROLL!!! MY BLOOD PRESSURE SHOOT UP!!!

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http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com

To be honest, I wish people would take Guest's point to account here. Whereas I don't really think of the way Teluna has been critiziced as badly as Guest did, to be honest, I myself am offended every time someone redlines let alone redraws my artwork without permission... :/ Whereas the criticism given in the thread sure is good, I think it's pretty thoughtless to assume that everyone wants it. A lot of artists just want to make art that serves its purpose (for example, has a certain atmosphere or looks like a character) without trying to be technically excellent. It's just simply narrow-minded to think that everyone has the same aspirations you have. :S

It's useless to assume that criticism always helps, too. It only helps when one desires it. Otherwise, especially in the case of redrawing and redlines, in the worst cases it only makes the artist feel uninspired and unsatisfied. When you do what the artist did yourself and show it to him/her with the intent to teach, you're directly implying that you are a better artist. Whereas this might be true in the way that people have different levels of skills, whether or not someone is better is a question of preference, and usually even those who aren't technically skilled have their own good parts: many amateurs have better imagination than professionals do, for instance. I think it's great when two artists agree that they want to learn each other's ways of doing something, but trying to force your way of doing it on someone by doing so without a permission is just pure meh if you ask me. I think more experienced artists should encourage and suggest but critique only when asked... It's a part of being a mature artist. Of course then again I'm just an amateur myself, so you can of course disregard my opinion if you think it's unprofessional or something.


Sorry for continuing the offtopic in your thread, Teluna. Nonetheless I have to say your art is cute... Your style, perhaps exactly because it isn't so technical, looks really free and relaxed. It's the kind of style that improves one's mood. It would really suit a lighthearted VN very well... :3

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I positively think that a redline is way more effective when teaching that just saying "mind the perspective" or "the right arm is bent in the wrong angle" (I come from places where redline, visual examples and/or references are encouraged when giving constructive criticism)

I'm sorry if offended anybody with it, I was just trying to be helpful Dx;
*edits previous posted image to remove the redline*

_________________

When drawing something, anything, USE REFERENCES!! Use your Google-fu!

Don't trust your memory, and don't blindly trust what other people teaches you either.

Research, observation, analysis, experimentation and practice is the key! (:

Yo, long time lurker on the boards here (as a guest, only recently joined up... Just for this occasion), and I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Do you realize what you just did?

You not only insulted this person's talent, you had the balls to completely redesign they're character into typical generic animu bullshit (that anyone with 1/4 a brain is sick of seeing), complete with dinner plate eyes, and an obvious sex change. Your redesign is not only one of the most non-creative redesigns I've ever seen, It also harbors many of the same problems you chose to criticize. Throughout the rest of this post YOU will refer to ME as Sempai.




There is no problem wearing a backpack over a cloak/coat/jacket, I have no idea where you got that idea but when I was a wee lad heading to school I did it every day.



The only valid point you made was that Teluna's vanishing points did not match up (Which seeing as how only 2 of your vanishing points matched up, you have no room to criticize), also nice trace job, I've seen your character in about 1000 useless "how to anime books". Perhaps that's your problem, you assume because you are a veteran poster you have talent Maybe instead of drawing something everyone has seen before, you might want to try taking a risk in developing your own style, Much like Teluna.

And Done. Discard all of your unoriginal scanned sketches and start anew to develop your own style.

Hey Teluna...welcome to Lemmasoft. If you have any more questions, might I suggest moving to private messages for the time being?

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Geez, kids nowadays have so much education, all the more in internet ¬¬

@Deji:
I think redlines are a better way to show peoples flaws too, since you're showing not only the error, but how to fix it. It's easier to learn how to improve.

Also, when you're doing something that is difficult to you, you're improving, aren't you? Peoples improve by superation. And I think about copying other peoples work more like copying photos, you still learning the basics, dinamics and good ways to arrange a scene. Well, that's just my opinion, so I can be wrong =D


That's true.


Or that you are just more experienced and know how to help the artist improve and are trying to do so.

Though, I agree with your points, Hime. I didn't saw anywhere Teluna asking for improving on his style, so maybe he likes the style he has and his current skills and don't wishes to improve or change it or whatever.

Oh, well, enough of off-topic hm?

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「A.RK Programmer•Trying to be a DeviantArtist」


Yep, I'm back after almost dying at PyWeek

*observes the smoking crater*

Now look at what you've caused, Mugen! It's gonna take weeks to clean up this mess!

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You said the same thing twice in a row here thought id point that out. Also just because you've been in the business for 7 years, doesn't mean anything, Lets take a look at Uwe Boll and his long career.

Producer
# Stoic (2009) (producer)
# Far Cry (2008) (producer)
# Alone in the Dark II (2008) (V) (producer)
# Tunnel Rats (2008) (executive producer)
# BloodRayne II: Deliverance (2007) (V) (executive producer)
# They Wait (2007) (executive producer)
# Postal (2007) (producer)
# Seed (2007) (producer)
# In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale (2007) (producer)
# BloodRayne (2005) (producer)
# Alone in the Dark (2005) (executive producer)
# House of the Dead (2003) (producer)
# Heart of America (2002) (executive producer)
# Blackwoods (2002) (executive producer)
# Angels Don't Sleep Here (2001) (executive producer)
# L'amour, l'argent, l'amour (2000) (co-producer)
# Fíaskó (2000) (co-producer)
# Sanctimony (2000) (TV) (producer)
# Fake - Die Fälschung (1998) (executive producer)
# Das erste Semester (1997) (executive producer)
# Amoklauf (1994) (producer)
# Barschel - Mord in Genf? (1993) (producer)

Director
# Stoic (2009)
# Far Cry (2008)
# Tunnel Rats (2008)
# BloodRayne II: Deliverance (2007) (V)
# Postal (2007)
# Seed (2007)
# In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale (2007)
# BloodRayne (2005)
# Alone in the Dark (2005)
# House of the Dead (2003)
# Heart of America (2002)
# Blackwoods (2002)
# Sanctimony (2000) (TV)
# Das erste Semester (1997)
# Amoklauf (1994)
# Barschel - Mord in Genf? (1993)
# German Fried Movie (1991) (V)

Writer
# Tunnel Rats (2008) (screenplay)
# Postal (2007) (written by)
# Seed (2007) (written by)
# Heart of America (2002) (story)
# Blackwoods (2002) (written by)
# Sanctimony (2000) (TV) (written by)
# Das erste Semester (1997) (writer)
# Amoklauf (1994) (writer)
# Barschel - Mord in Genf? (1993) (writer)
# German Fried Movie (1991) (V) (writer)

I'm Sure most of us can agree, Just because you've been in the business 7, or in Boll's Case 17 going on 18 years, and have had a lot of work, it doesn't prove your any good. It just proves you are persistent.