curousity: create a secret event when playing new game plus

[renoa-heartilly]

hello everyone!
i was working on my sunofes novel and while adding up the points system, i remembered a game i read about before:
the first time you play the game you go through a normal school day, and when the day is over, the game ends.
that's it, game over!
you find yourself at the menu screen confused, because, how can that be the whole game?!
so you start the game again and skip to change the choices you made hoping to get another ending.
but this goes on for a few playthroughs, and sometime during the last playthrough, the protagonist goes: it feels like i've done this before!
and you realize that you've been playing the same day over and over!
a time traveling protagonist!

i did not play the game myself so i don't know it's name or story, but it was an interesting way to use the system to create something new of an overused genre!

i tried to make something of the same effect with Renpy using the points system, assuming that i can give a character 0 points at the beginning and every playthrough adds another point, and after a few play throughs you will get their real ending.
right away renpy tells me the variable needs to be set before it can be modified with $ charaA_point +=1
so i tried $ charaA_point = 0, and $ charaA_point == 0, trying to trick it into going through with it, but it seems Renpy requires the variable to be set early on in the game with a solid number.
this way the points end up being reset at every new game ($ charaA_point = 0) no matter what you do you add up the points in the previous playthrough.
i tried making it ($ charaA_point = -1) for the lolz, thinking renpy will deduce 1 with every new game, and all i had to do was give the character more than 1 point at the appropriate time, but it didn't work, i guess it reset the points to the exact number -1 at every new game

i guess it could be done by counting how many times the game was finished, right?
if $ ended_the_game > 4
jump true_end
but how would renpy calculate that if it resets everything at label start?

anyway, this isn't a real question for the questions category, it's just curiosity on the logic of it and whether or not it can be done

how do you feel about games that require you to finish them several times before getting the 'true' ending?
as for me, if i find myself in the main menu after an ending, i'd probably Load the game thinking i've made a mistake, not start a new game (unless there is an indication that it has become new game +)

[trooper6]

anyway, this isn't a real question for the questions category, it's just curiosity on the logic of it and whether or not it can be done

how do you feel about games that require you to finish them several times before getting the 'true' ending?
as for me, if i find myself in the main menu after an ending, i'd probably Load the game thinking i've made a mistake, not start a new game (unless there is an indication that it has become new game +)

Can it be done? Yes. You just have to use persistent variables. http://www.renpy.org/doc/html/persistent.html#

How do I feel about games that require me to finish them several times before getting the "true" ending? I hate them. I've only experienced it with 999 and I hated it more than anything. I only played about 3 or 4 of the endings before I was so irritated that I stopped. Note: I don't like the concept of True endings and this is one of the reasons why.

Now, I don't mind easter eggs and bonuses for doing a game more than once. But if I play complete the game and spend hours doing it...I don't like being given a broken or fake ending because the creator wants me to pad the playing time by having me repeat my self another 5 times. Do not like.

I don't mind prologue fake-outs like with Ristorante Amore. That's cool. But I have to play a game over and over and over to get the "true" ending. No.

[Taranee]

If the 'false' endings are very good, I think it's fine that the visual novel has to be replayed many times. In the only visual novel where I've seen this done well, there were many bittersweet false endings that had to be read before I could get the happy ending. It made the true ending feel much more rewarding, because the sad endings made me sympathize with the characters and want to see them finally succeed.

The false endings should be written as well (or even better) as the true ending and they shouldn't feel like punishments, because it's stupid to punish for something that can't be avoided. Make every playthrough feel like a complete story, even if the ending isn't the true one. There should be character development and some partially achieved goal. And make it easy to get the true ending when all the false endings have been unlocked, so that there won't be unnecessary repetitive playthroughs.

I also think there should be lots of variations to the common path, or the reader will just press "skip" and get bored.

[Kailoto]

For once, I think I'll disagree with trooper6 here (:o)... I don't mind forced replays, but ONLY if a few conditions are met.

1) Content needs to change between playthroughs. Even seeing the same sentence repeated once can be tedious, so as you'd imagine, rehashing entire sequences would make the game extremely unappealing. If I have to start a new game again to see the rest of the story, don't pad it out... just cut to where the story differs.

2) "Incomplete" endings should not be false or conflicting. If the first playthrough takes longer than say, around 45 minutes, the ending had better be an actual ending that stands alone from the rest. Think "alternate" as opposed to "false" or "good but not true" end. Replay should be motivated by learning more about the world and characters, NOT because you're forced into failure or a sub-optimal outcome the first time through.

3) There needs to be a justification for the mechanic. This one is probably the most important in my opinion - if the story has no reason to require a replay, then why make it a replay at all? Why not just construct a linear timeline that serves the same purpose? There has to be some deep, significant meaning in requiring the player to start from the beginning again, not just a new chapter.

Now if you're talking about a small, mostly trivial scene as a reward for the player completing the game to 100%? I think that's fine, as long as it's strictly supplemental - not a true ending or anything of the sort. It's okay to reward a player for going all the way, but you can't punish everyone else who doesn't at the same time.

I think the best and most relevant example I can think of that does this well is Fate/stay night. There's three different arcs, all which start from the same place in the timeline. You're required to play them in order, which differentiates it from an open-ended game, but the order is justified, because each subsequent playthrough has an entirely new sequence of events that adds to the previous playthrough without repeating things you already know. Each ending stands alone, and while some are arguably more important than others, they're each treated as a full, positive end. And if you 100% the game, you'll get a bonus scene that serves the dual purpose of fanservice and developer commentary while not containing anything vital to the experience.

Oh, and F/SN added in a handy feature that would let you skip entire scenes at a time to make replaying as painless as possible, a feature that I wish all VNs had. My point is this: you can do it, but a LOT of effort needs to go into making it work well. So be wary.

[Harliqueen]

In theory it sounds pretty awesome, but in reality I'm not sure I'd enjoy it so much.

I'm going to have to agree with trooper6 and say I don't like 'true' endings. I don't have much precious freetime to play VNs or games, so when I do get a chance I tend to only get to play them through once maybe twice (because I want to try out other VNs in that time), which means I am never able to get all the endings. Plus, most of the time, I think it's up to the player to decide what their 'true' ending is (which one they like best, etc), instead of someone deciding for them. That's the point of the interaction of the player, right? To forge their own path through the VN

But, saying that, there are obviously people who really enjoy playing through a VN many times and getting all the endings.

Also, I might not replay a game like that, if I was shunted back to main menu after nothing happened, I might just think it was a very well thought out VN

In the end, I think you have to decide if it's something you would enjoy making, and if the logistics are there, then go for it!

[Chocopyro]

I'm actually playing around with the idea of a protagonist who is a reincarnation of himself from a different timeplane after the player makes his first playthrough, which in turn grants him with newly added dejavu scenes and some new options in old choices that were not present in the first playthrough of the game. Perhaps a "True Ending" scenario could actually play out rather effectively in this scenario, as not only does it take the previous endings into account, but it could explain that the protagonist's soul needed to experience all the regular endings before attaining an esoteric subconscious understanding in order to complete a task, answer a question, or unlock a hidden secret which ties everything together.

But when it comes down to it, I prefer to think of unlockable endings as "Bonus Endings" not "True Endings". In most cases, (For romantic games) players may only play because they're interested in one or two of the romantic interests, and aren't going to bother going after a true ending. So they don't want to feel cheated out of their stories from incomplete conclusions. But for the players who are whole heartedly interested in a game's story, it's characters, and it's world, then if they devour their way through every ending and are still left wanting more, then I think it would be kind of cheating them for not rewarding them for their efforts. So, if you aren't rewarding them through a slew of extra bonuses in the Extra screen, then at least give them a fun joke ending.

[trooper6]

But when it comes down to it, I prefer to think of unlockable endings as "Bonus Endings" not "True Endings". In most cases, (For romantic games) players may only play because they're interested in one or two of the romantic interests, and aren't going to bother going after a true ending. So they don't want to feel cheated out of their stories from incomplete conclusions. But for the players who are whole heartedly interested in a game's story, it's characters, and it's world, then if they devour their way through every ending and are still left wanting more, then I think it would be kind of cheating them for not rewarding them for their efforts. So, if you aren't rewarding them through a slew of extra bonuses in the Extra screen, then at least give them a fun joke ending.

This is basically my position. Bonus Endings? Yes! Some sort of completionist reward? Sure! Secret side routes for doing everything? Awesome! But I remember the frustration I had with 999 when it became clear that so and so was going to kill me with an ax regardless of my choices because it was route #2, 3, and 4...and that is what happens in those routes. The use of the true route mechanic took away my agency and resulted in outcomes that were not based on how I had played. I don't like that.

Now I think looping games can be done well..but I don't think that is the same thing. I basically think that a player should be able to get a complete experience from one playthrough. Things should not be artificially withheld from the player just because it is the first playthrough.

[Carassaurat]

Mind, there's a difference between having a "true ending" and the situation described in the OP's example. In the latter, it is not so much a question of liking it, since it is the point of the thing altogether that it is actually repeated and that the character involved becomes aware of that. Save the Date employs a mechanic like that. It's a bit like the movie Groundhog Day.

(I must admit I've myself toyed with the idea of making a dating game where in the second playthrough, the love interest from the first would show up again to confront you with leaving her and in the third playthrough the Commendatore you killed in the first playthrough would show up, drag you to hell and remove the ability to ever play the game again.)

[trooper6]

(I must admit I've myself toyed with the idea of making a dating game where in the second playthrough, the love interest from the first would show up again to confront you with leaving her and in the third playthrough the Commendatore you killed in the first playthrough would show up, drag you to hell and remove the ability to ever play the game again.)

That sounds fun!

[Auro-Cyanide]

(I must admit I've myself toyed with the idea of making a dating game where in the second playthrough, the love interest from the first would show up again to confront you with leaving her and in the third playthrough the Commendatore you killed in the first playthrough would show up, drag you to hell and remove the ability to ever play the game again.)

I believe that has been done before, I've heard people liked it

I think it was Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi (haven't played it myself)

I think this mechanic is pretty cool if the execution is pulled off well. You basically have to make it worthwhile for your player through the whole thing, not just the endings. You have to be careful not to take a player's attention for granted, it's actually quite a precious thing that can be hard to get and keep. Respect that and don't waste their time.

I think it's a lot easier to pull this off in a short game than a long one, people are just more willing to do the run throughs that way. I also think that the content has to be worth it. Though frankly I think your endings should ALWAYS be fulfilling in and of themselves (not including game overs that are meant to be overcome to continue). It just seems like poor form to ask your player to play through and then give them something half-arsed because they made a 'mistake'. In the games we have made our 'bad' endings are sometimes more popular than our 'good' endings, and that is something we aim for.

(We kind of experimented with repeated playthroughs in Taarradhin, which is a fairly short game, to varying levels of success... I think it required more planning and a better concept, but I got some interesting feedback.)

[SundownKid]

This is basically my position. Bonus Endings? Yes! Some sort of completionist reward? Sure! Secret side routes for doing everything? Awesome! But I remember the frustration I had with 999 when it became clear that so and so was going to kill me with an ax regardless of my choices because it was route #2, 3, and 4...and that is what happens in those routes. The use of the true route mechanic took away my agency and resulted in outcomes that were not based on how I had played. I don't like that.

Now I think looping games can be done well..but I don't think that is the sane thing. I basically think that a player should be able to get a complete experience from one playthrough. Things should not be artificially withheld from the player just because it is the first playthrough.

I agree. Well, it was an interesting twist in 999, but then Virtue's Last Reward did it all over again and when I realized it, I facepalmed hard. I went into it assuming that Ally or Betray would give me a customized playthrough depending on who I decided to trust. But no... you had to do ALL the possible paths in order to get the true ending. So ultimately it was just a plot device and not player agency. That is not how the game's trailers and stuff presented it at all, it made it seem like Ally or Betray was important to the story when you really just had to trudge through every possible path ever.

[trooper6]

I agree. Well, it was an interesting twist in 999, but then Virtue's Last Reward did it all over again and when I realized it, I facepalmed hard. I went into it assuming that Ally or Betray would give me a customized playthrough depending on who I decided to trust. But no... you had to do ALL the possible paths in order to get the true ending. So ultimately it was just a plot device and not player agency. That is not how the game's trailers and stuff presented it at all, it made it seem like Ally or Betray was important to the story when you really just had to trudge through every possible path ever.

Oh? Well...Virtue's Last Reward is off of my to-play list then. Thank you for letting me know!
But I do want to say for the record that I think that looping can be done well and in an interesting way. I even had an idea for a game where playing a game a second time made some subtle changes that went beyond just the choices you made (it is complicated)...but if you never replayed the game, you would have a complete and excellent experience. The changes I was thinking of had to do with capitalizing on a concept/mechanic and wouldn't make the second play through better, more true...just give you a slightly different dialogue. But...never would I compromise player agency or hold back, just give some fun bits for a second play through.

[SundownKid]

I agree. Well, it was an interesting twist in 999, but then Virtue's Last Reward did it all over again and when I realized it, I facepalmed hard. I went into it assuming that Ally or Betray would give me a customized playthrough depending on who I decided to trust. But no... you had to do ALL the possible paths in order to get the true ending. So ultimately it was just a plot device and not player agency. That is not how the game's trailers and stuff presented it at all, it made it seem like Ally or Betray was important to the story when you really just had to trudge through every possible path ever.

Oh? Well...Virtue's Last Reward is off of my to-play list then. Thank you for letting me know!
But I do want to say for the record that I think that looping can be done well and in an interesting way. I even had an idea for a game where playing a game a second time made some subtle changes that went beyond just the choices you made (it is complicated)...but if you never replayed the game, you would have a complete and excellent experience. The changes I was thinking of had to do with capitalizing on a concept/mechanic and wouldn't make the second play through better, more true...just give you a slightly different dialogue. But...never would I compromise player agency or hold back, just give some fun bits for a second play through.

One thing that sound a lot like you are describing is NieR. You can play it once and get to Ending A and it mostly makes sense. But then when you replay it again, it adds in some new dialog that changes the way you see the game. Ok, I guess it does technically make it "more true" though.

[trooper6]

I've heard good things about NieR...it is on my list of games to play...but there is no guarantee I'll play it twice...I have so many games on my backlog and so little time...another reason I think it is important that a player can get a complete satisfying ending on the first play through.

[SundownKid]

I've heard good things about NieR...it is on my list of games to play...but there is no guarantee I'll play it twice...I have so many games on my backlog and so little time...another reason I think it is important that a player can get a complete satisfying ending on the first play through.

Well, technically it's more like half a playthrough, since it starts from a certain event in the 50% mark of the game. Otherwise it would be really tedious to replay, since there are endings C and D too.