Any advice on creating a gender-neutral visual novel?

[papillon]

I don't see why the story should be completely different based on the protagonists gender.

Because men and women are different.

It is entirely dependent on the nature of the story and the nature of the protagonists.

Some men are not very different from some women, and some men's experiences are not very different from some women's experiences.

If you are telling a story about an all-male military unit, making the protagonist female changes the story down to the absolute fundament. It is not in any way the same story.

If you are telling a story about a struggling young reporter working on a first assignment writing a restaurant review, it's possible that the protagonist's gender makes VERY little difference.

For a romance-focused story, well, it depends on the cultural standards of the setting you're writing in, but it will probably make a sizable difference, though not necessarily to the level of needing a whole new story.

If you've played SC2VN, there are two routes for male and female protagonist, and while there are a few scenes that are affected by the player's gender (since the issue of women in esports is part of the plot!), the overall shape of the story is basically the same.

As I said in my initial post, the romance is a small aspect of the game and not the focus at all, and quite frankly I don't want my Visual Novel to be an escapist power fantasy. In fact, my frustration at how VN's always seem to have a "true ending" where everyone lives is what drove me to try to make my own. If you have to choose between the life of character A and character B in my game then you have to accept that one of them will die.

I would recommend against using a contrary driver as your motivation. You may very well have complaints about the way certain VNs execute what they do, but I would suggest focusing on the story you want to tell, rather than the aspects of other works you want to avoid.

While it's good to have things you WANT to say and not just things you don't want to say, the desire to "make things better" is the driving motivation behind a great deal of creative effort. Many, many people see something that's been done and think about how they want to improve on it.

However, to EJ107 - it is not my experience that "most" VNs have a true ending. Many people dislike true ends because they feel that they undermine the purpose of allowing you to choose your path in the first place.

When it comes down to live-or-die outcomes, however, while there is a benefit in making the players make hard decisions and live with them, those decisions can also be forced and unfair. Players will think of other options and be angry that they weren't available. In real life, sometimes you make the best decision that you can under time pressure and it's not necessarily the best thing to have done and you just have to live with that... but in a game where you can already back up and make different choices, it can feel pretty unfair if the writer denies you the obvious fix.

I think that saying they are aimed at the "18-25" demographic is a bit misleading, as it seems to to be a very niche group of 18-25 year old's they are aimed at. If you like that sort of stuff then that's fine, but I'm definitely not targeting that group.

The anime viewing community is itself a niche, and VN readers are a niche within that niche.

Intentionally limiting yourself to only the most hardcore audience of VN fans is absolutely not the only way to go. There is nothing wrong with reaching out to a new audience!

However, you do need to think about HOW you intend to reach out to them, if you want to reach that audience.

What concerns me is your level of discomfort with something as benign as an escapist fantasy about being a teenager in school. Judging by the implications you make, I think you might be overly concerned about being the recipient of such implications yourself, and are engaging in virtue signalling behavior as a defense mechanism against that.

I think you need to consider the state of your mindset at the moment.

You are not a judge, and you are leaping to a lot of defensive conclusions.

[EJ107]

While it's good to have things you WANT to say and not just things you don't want to say, the desire to "make things better" is the driving motivation behind a great deal of creative effort. Many, many people see something that's been done and think about how they want to improve on it.

However, to EJ107 - it is not my experience that "most" VNs have a true ending. Many people dislike true ends because they feel that they undermine the purpose of allowing you to choose your path in the first place.

When it comes down to live-or-die outcomes, however, while there is a benefit in making the players make hard decisions and live with them, those decisions can also be forced and unfair. Players will think of other options and be angry that they weren't available. In real life, sometimes you make the best decision that you can under time pressure and it's not necessarily the best thing to have done and you just have to live with that... but in a game where you can already back up and make different choices, it can feel pretty unfair if the writer denies you the obvious fix.

Thank you for your feedback. That's very much my feeling on true endings, and I understand that there are a lot of VN's (particularly those published on sites like this) that do not have them. I was mostly talking about the big names like Steins;Gate or Clannad.

My game is all about consequence and going back to change the past, so I'm trying to walk a fine line between having some things that the player has the ability to change (without screwing everything else up) and having things that the player does not have the ability to solve. Ultimately I want the game to be about accepting loss, though I am concerned that I may not be able to pull off the required finesse.

I definitely don't want the game to feel unfair.

Your subtext has not been missed here. Might I recommend holding off on the making of accusatory implications for a moment? Because you're suggesting a pretty heinous intent in the minds of those to whom eroge in a school setting are targeted; namely, wanting to chase jailbait skirts. That is not what escapist fantasies in these settings are about, or their protagonists would be adults creeping on teenagers instead of teenage students themselves. It's fairly well-known that adults look back on their teenage years longingly, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that there can be a market for those who want to indulge in brief escapist fantasies where they can revisit the environment of their youth. There is no reason any of this has to be about being a creeper, and frankly, it's pretty rude to imply that it is.

It's rude for me to make suggestions about who eroge (explicitly pornographic games) where the characters are under 18 is aimed at?

I appreciate that if you enjoy h-games you don't have much choice since many are set in schools, but that's my point. Explicit games shouldn't be largely set in schools.

The anime viewing community is itself a niche, and VN readers are a niche within that niche. What concerns me is your level of discomfort with something as benign as an escapist fantasy about being a teenager in school. Judging by the implications you make, I think you might be overly concerned about being the recipient of such implications yourself, and are engaging in virtue signalling behavior as a defense mechanism against that.

I think you need to consider the state of your mindset at the moment. I don't think you're in a good place for creating a visual novel as it stands. Your focus on things you don't like strikes me as a spiteful motivation, and your aspirations are to provide a player with such a volume of choice as to make a writer weep at the task set before them. I think you're spending a lot of brain bytes on insignificant political and personal concerns and that, I am certain, will get in the way of your ability to produce a quality story. When your biggest concerns are about the prevalence of true ends, allowing the player to choose the gender of the protagonist, and what kind of "obsession" makes you "uncomfortable," I think it's safe to say that you are way down in the weeds, and need to step back to take a breath of fresh air so you can look at the big picture and remember what matters most in a novel: telling a story that the audience will enjoy.

Excuse me?

You know nothing about my game other than that I want a gender choice, and have no right to take a few brief off-hand statements I made and start talking about my mindset or the reasons I want to create my game. I asked for advice on writing a game with multi-gender appeal, not a diatribe on my supposed outlook on Anime and VN's.

[Caveat Lector]

The best advice I can offer under this context is:

Make the game you want.

If you want to make a game outside the typical high school setting, that's fine! If you've reached the point where you've decided to try to conceptualize something as a Visual Novel, then you're on the path to making a Visual Novel! As for making something gender neutral...

If a work is truly well-done, it CAN appeal to outside its targeted demographic. Think about what makes your story what it is. Or look at works with stories that have universal appeal. What kind of themes can just about everyone relate to? Or, perhaps, simply write it to the end. Sometimes, you can only see what your story is really about AFTER writing it.

[gekiganwing]

EJ107, are you currently looking for examples of fiction in which the main character's gender does not matter? If so, then I am not sure what to suggest. Consider asking a librarian, or finding another person who's knowledgeable about a variety of stories.

Ultimately I want the game to be about accepting loss, though I am concerned that I may not be able to pull off the required finesse.

I appreciate that you want to make a lengthy VN with complex themes which challenges readers. Make sure that you can devote enough time and effort to writing your story. Consider giving yourself deadlines for completing sections of the story, in order to deal with issues such as perfectionism or procrastination. Look for people who can give you positive comments as well as criticism. If necessary, create multiple drafts.

Explicit games shouldn't be largely set in schools.

I want to encourage diversity in fiction. In my opinion, stories should have a variety of art styles, topics, genres, settings, and so on. There should not be a default content rating. In other words, I don't want most stories to get a G rating, an NC-17 rating, or any specific one in between those two extremes.

Creating a visual novel that challenges readers' expectations can be rewarding. It might find an audience, and it might make money if it's released as an indie game. However, please keep in mind it might not become popular. Some topics here on Lemma Soft for completed games and works in progress only have a few responses. Also, I have seen people start topics about freeware and indie visual novels on the sub-Reddit r/visualnovels, and then get no replies. That said... if you want to design an offbeat visual novel, then be willing to create art for art's sale.

[Rossfellow]

That said... if you want to design an offbeat visual novel, then be willing to create art for art's sale.

This is perhaps the best and harshest advice to this topic that can fit in one sentence.