What women want from female characters

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Auro-Cyanide
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What women want from female characters

#1 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

This topic is partly inspired by this particular panel discussion: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... Characters (which is an hour long, but interesting to listen to) and partly from the realisation that females tend to hate female BxG characters as much as males hate male GxB characters

I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss, not only for other females, but also for the guys making games where females make up a part of their audience, or even just people who want to have their female characters be more female friendly. Someone is free to make male equivalent topics if they want, but I won't since it would be purely speculation instead of partial speculation :D

I think this can be a good topic to discuss because it comes across as very confusing and generally leaves men pulling out their hair going 'Oh my god, what do you women want!?' Also, females tend to be extremely hard on other females, even female characters. I'm pretty sure we are always going to be picky in this area.

I'm just going to write down my general reaction to the topic from my observation of it, so it would be great if others could join in with what they think about it, whether they agree or not.

------------------

As with all characters, I think everything comes down to purpose. A female character could literally be the sluttiest women this side of the solar system, but if she has a reason to do so, I think we would be fine with it. Some people will raise issue with it for personal reasons, but generally speaking people would accept it. Depending on the story you give her, people may like her, hate her, feel sorry for her, but it would be based on her story, not just the way she looks. So I think everything comes back to the idea of a character having a purpose that is supported by the story, basically not boobs for boobs sake.

SEXUALITY: Believe it or not, but most women do not have an issue with female characters if they a sexy. The problem again arises from purpose. Feminine sexuality has always, and will always, belong to the female sex. I think females tend to react negatively when this is taken away and used as a tool for males. If a female character is meant to be sexy, and she owns that sexuality, it can be a good thing. A great deal of females like to look good and feel attractive. It's not something that we generally feel bad about. So it can be something we can connect with in a female character. We can not connect as well when the female is obviously just meant to be eye candy. And I feel that it isn't impossible for a female to look good and be a good female character.

BREASTS: Ah, yes, boobs. Males love them. And so do females. Most adult females have them in some way, shape or form. They are apart of us and generally we like them. Plus they are soft and squidgy. So the breasts themselves are not the problem. So what is?

-Physics.
There are two things you need to know about breasts. 1. They are heavy. The bigger they are, the heavier they get. 2. They move around A LOT.
Breasts are basically bags of fat and they are not that securely attached to our chests. Breasts are effected by gravity just like anything else, and so they are not going to hold themselves up. That is why we wear bras. When designing a female character, you may wish to think about: What type of body shape she has, how big her breasts are, how is this going to effect what she does, AND WHERE IS HER BRA GOING TO GO WITH HER OUTFIT. Every time I see a big breasted female fighter with nothing but strips of cloth, all I can think is 'Oh, that would hurt'. If you have anything above an A cup, even jumping up and down without a bra can be painful.

-Size.
Women get breasts come in all different shapes and sizes. No-one knows better than us. We are also aware of how breast size can connect with body size, and that sometimes it doesn't. As long as breast size is hitting somewhere within reality and give a nod towards gravity, I don't think females would question it too much. The other thing with size is that it shouldn't define a character. Most women don't want to be thought of in relation to her breasts. There is more to them than that. It is definitely apart of a females design, and may even effect how the character feels about them. But all that should stem from her personality, not what she looks like. Some women flaunt their breasts, some hide them, some just think they are massive pain. Again, this is something to consider.

CLOTHING.
Okay, every one is going to have to admit the idea of wearing armour and exposing skin at the same time is ridiculous, right? Again, clothing should fit in with purpose. A female character dressing in a seductive manner is fine. A female character dressing in a seductive manner on a battlefield is just stupid. All of this will be effected by how realistic your story is and what else is going on. Sometimes a female character would be better off naked then in certain outfits. But if you want to avoid females rolling their eyes about it, basically step into the characters shows. How would you feel dressed like this? Does it fit the character's personality? Is she going to have to fight in this? Will she be comfortable? Will she even be able to move in it? As long as the outfit comes off as natural, it's fine. If it is unnatural, all it is going to do is snap people out of their immersion. Also, please refer to this comic: http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/777

AGGRESSION.
I don't really expect to see a lot of female characters in historical or modern war settings. It just doesn't happen all that often. And female fighters of any type are going to tend to fall into a slightly unrealistic setting, which is what some stories go for. Females are, on average, not as physically strong as males. And that is fine. Nobody can argue with nature on that one. However, there are other things to consider. At the end of the day, if a female or those she cares about is threatened, she is just as likely to fight as anybody else. She has just as much reason to fight as anybody else. To protect those she loves, to protect the future, all that stuff. She might not be as successful physically, but she isn't incapable of it either. Reality and fantasy does mix a lot on this front, and as long as it sits well with what you have going on in your story, I think she will be successful. Also, don't forget 'hell hath no fury like a women scorned'. There are shreds of truth in that.

FEMININITY.
This one is still in open debate with women, so I don't expect anyone to resolve it anytime soon.
Personally, I don't feel there is anything wrong with liking pink, cooking, dresses, make-up, cute things etc etc. As long as there are variations and options for females, there is nothing wrong with having these types of things. If a female character happens to be a nurturing type, good for her. It doesn't make her any more or less of a women. Females need to stop being so judgemental of what each one of us likes to do. We are a massive group made of individuals. Liking traditional 'female' things does not make you weak, it just makes you who you are. The best thing to do in this regard in my opinion is to study the females around you and base your characters in a similar way.

Anyway, that is all I can think of for the moment. Feel free to offer up your own feelings on the issue, other things you want to add, things you disagree with etc. This topic is specifically about female reactions to female characters. What females want may not concern you or your game at all, and that is all good. However, some people may be interested in knowing more about how females feel about certain type of characterisations (and personally I would be interested to hear the male reaction to both female and male too ;) )

GJsoft

Re: What women want from female characters

#2 Post by GJsoft »

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Re: What women want from female characters

#3 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

I agree. Everyone likes a well defines character, it doesn't matter who or what they are. This argument could easily be applied to male characters, child characters, old characters, alien characters. But that would be a massive discussion, so I only choose a small part that I am most familiar with and picked out a couple issues that would stop a certain part of the audience connecting with the character.

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Re: What women want from female characters

#4 Post by Aleema »

In regards to the boobs section, I find myself staring at Elenor's clevage (right) and turned off by Loren's chest (left):
loren_bewbs.jpg
I think because Elenor is realistic, and Loren ... not so much (I don't even know what or how her clothing is staying on). Whereas Elenor is just sporting some major under-boobage that's sorta intriguing. Even in a non-gay way. Loren is more ... like Ivy from soul caliber as the podcast pointed out as a big "no-no". :) But I like the characters in Loren RPG because not only the women are half-naked, and I think that's fair. (I apologize to Jack for using his game as an example. :) )

In regards to feminimity, I had to look up the "smurfette syndrome" after the podcast and found the Nostalgia Chick's Smurfette Principle. It's about Token females, and how they're always PAAAANK. xD I love all colors, and pink is definitely a fun color, but the whole "girls are only pink" is what's frustrating sometimes. Gotta hand it to Red Vs. Blue for having a pink male character. Though its the butt of many jokes, it's definitely become the norm and challenges pink being only associated with females. Also, "it's lightish red." :lol:

Good post.

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Re: What women want from female characters

#5 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

Granted, boobs are hard to get right. I have issues with it -.-'
But I find, no matter the size or shape, the more realistic they are, the more attractive they are. It's kind of that combination of where they sit, that slight weight and that odd consistency between liquid and solid. If you get that spot on, everyone is going to be staring at them.

I haven't really felt it has been a question of quantity of female characters (though females are over 50% of the population. Just saying) but more a question of quality. Even where female characters pop up, female issues are rarely dealt with. Or even females dealing with universal issues. Though disney movies had quite a few female protagonists and they progressively got better.

Visual Novels, unlike other game type, have a good balance of male and female characters. So quantity isn't so much an issue, though some of the above issues arise. For other games, I see no reason why more games shouldn't have female protagonists. It's not like males are incapable of connecting with a female character, and I personally think it would be good for everyone to be exposed to a female perspective more often.

From Nostalgia Chick's Smurfette Principle, I though it was interesting, but true, that female characters are often viewed as a problem. They nag, they get angry, they get themselves in situations from which they have to be saved. Their redeeming feature is that they are physically female :/ Didn't this give males a negative impression of females, or is this how we appear to them?

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Re: What women want from female characters

#6 Post by Crocosquirrel »

Thank you for the breakdown. It should help matters in the extremely near future. I at least try and take these things into account when writing women, and although I'm not always successful, I'd like to think I get it right a considerable portion of the time.

I wrote a well-endowed woman for Academy Daze, and she does in fact own that facet of herself-- and is more than happy to use it to get what she wants. I don't take a lot of time to explore her particular psychology in the text, however.

That said, when I jammed myself in her little blonde head, she comes out for me a lot like she will seem on the screen. Ambitious, vicious, and uncaring about collateral damage. There is some suspicion as things progress that gravity is being cheated in her case...

On the other hand, the female character that's smallest doesn't really see herself in terms of attractiveness. Psychologically, she starts the game as 'female' but doesn't really see herself as a 'woman' until near the end of her Path. So she's a work in progress for Alex. Not that he ever really realizes that.

The one in the middle is Nanami, and she can see herself as a woman. As the result of some rather unfortunate events, has serious body issues, despite being fairly well endowed, and otherwise comfortable in her skin.

The others fall in a fair spectrum amongst that range, and all have their own peculiar psychologies. It the men in this case that get short shrift, with only one that says anything about the way they're built. I've seen a number of men written very strangely by men and women alike.

Some of them make me want to claw my eyes out, and facestab the author. Edward Cullen comes to mind first and foremost, as the creepy stalker-dude. I've read those books, and I still don't get how anyone can be attracted to him, never mind the heavy-handed pursuit of the invisible not-blue-eyed waif-girl that passes for a protagonist for that series.

I'm honestly not sure which is the bigger crime, now that I'm mulling it. The nearly impossible Male, the unusually flat girl, or the interplay between them that passes for a romance. Maybe I just don't get it at all. Wouldn't be the first time.

Women aren't the only ones that can get these things wrong. Men can get it wrong too. We're not all the tough-guy martial-arts driven weight-lifting Chuck Norris types. In fact, very few men are like this, or can ever be that sort of alpha-male jerk. Same goes for the chained-up Bad Boy, Creepy Stalker-Dude, Gun-toting fanatic, Hunter/Outdoorsman, knife-wielding maniac, or Cowabunga Pothead. Men in the general population tend to not be nearly that body-conscious are are fine with knowing enough hand-to-hand combat to hold their own in a one-to-one fight. We will jump to protect what's ours, and we try and fix everything. Doesn't really matter if we *can*, we'll either kill ourselves learning how, or fake it, depending on our time, level of chivalry, and level of insistence on honesty. After all, if you kick a problem enough, you'll either break it for good or it'll start working.

In my own case, in a time long, long past, I decided that I wanted needed to know how to optimize memory in my 80486 computer. To do that, one needed to edit two files, config.sys and autoexec.bat. Load things in the right order, and work things out correctly, and you can shave enough off to make things work that would not otherwise. It took me a week of incessant trial and error, but I managed, and could do the same with nearly any other configuration.

On the other hand, if I open the hood of my car, I can see how many cables go into the engine, and replace the parts on the end. Don't ask me to do much more, though, or you'l;l come back to a pile of junk. I just don't know how.

The guy down the street from me sees the tray that comes out of his computer as a really spiffy cupholder, but he can fix nearly anything that goes wrong in my car. Me, I'll go ask him about my car, but he'd rather kick his computer until the cupholder works. Each according to his gifts.

We can ask for directions, or GPS recievers wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are. We'd just rather not ask the random dude with the three hundred metal bits hanging from his face, because the chances of a similar frame of reference is slim at best. "Go out of here on that street, turn left, and keep going until you see the thing on the right, and turn the other way on Buttmonkey street."

Dude, you have no idea, and now I have none either. Don't glower at me. You don't scare me, but I can go out to my car and come back with something that will scare the hell out of you: An industrial-strength magnet.

Am I a jerk? Yes. Can I do idiotic things? Yes. Do I look at a woman and imagine what she looks like naked? Absolutely.

Is that all that I am? No. Try not to write me as such. I can write myself like that, thanks, and I'll still be wrong.
Auro-Cyanide wrote: From Nostalgia Chick's Smurfette Principle, I though it was interesting, but true, that female characters are often viewed as a problem. They nag, they get angry, they get themselves in situations from which they have to be saved. Their redeeming feature is that they are physically female :/ Didn't this give males a negative impression of females, or is this how we appear to them?
More the former than the latter. Women have been painted this way as long as there has been media sufficient to portray them, and it get ingrained into the psyches of men that might have to try writing them. It's annoying, but there it is. As far as drawing women, I don't even try to draw men. Not worth it at this point. One of the big reasons i ask for others to do that ;)

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of text. I needed a tiny rant, and someone provided me a worthy subject and stage.
I'm going to get off my soap-box now, and let you get back to your day.

Academy Daze- Back in production! Complete with ecchi-ness ;)

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Re: What women want from female characters

#7 Post by Sapphi »

Auro-Cyanide wrote: As with all characters, I think everything comes down to purpose. A female character could literally be the sluttiest women this side of the solar system, but if she has a reason to do so, I think we would be fine with it.
Auro-Cyanide wrote: SEXUALITY: Believe it or not, but most women do not have an issue with female characters if they a sexy. The problem again arises from purpose.

Spot on. I usually don't complain unless the sluttiness/sexiness is just really in your face for no other reason than to sell stuff. Sexy female characters aren't always derogatory; in fact, they can be empowering. Just where we (girls) draw the line on what's empowering vs. what's detrimental is probably going to differ. In my case, I'm pretty picky, but I'm not seething with jealous hatred at every single sexy female character either. To compare two sort-of similar characters to hopefully explain myself...

Dr. Tearju from Black Cat is incredibly sexy. And Yabuki obviously had a lot of fun drawing her. But her sexiness isn't forced at you when you read the comics. You can just sort of sit back and appreciate how pretty she is. She is also a genius scientist and a relevant character to the plot, which makes her useful for more than just selling books.

On the other hand, a similar character but one I utterly despise is Mikaela (Megan Fox) from the live-action Transformers films. I didn't know who Megan Fox was before the movie, so I had no bias for or against her. And at first as I watched the movie, I thought, "Oh, she's pretty." But then it just started to grate on me. I felt like they weren't just content to let her be sexy, they had to shove her at me like "LOOK!! BE AROUSED!!!" Same story with Tearju, she's a hot girl who also specializes in something. And I really liked that Mikaela was a mechanic. What I I did not like that even that was fetishized to a high degree.

Maybe the real difference between these two lies in the other character's reaction to them, though. If they're pretty sexy but nobody really seems to make a big deal out of it, fine. If they're sexy and everyone in the movie is constantly acknowledging that, it's irritating, and chances are I'll find them much less attractive in the end. Most likely if Mikaela had been a side character who just happened to be really hot and worked on cars, and nobody flipped out because OMG A GIRL WHO WORKS ON CARS IS THIS HOT then she probably would have been my favorite character. My thought process then, instead of "Ugh, get that dumb slut off the screen and give me more robots" would have been more like "Woah, a girl who works on cars and is pretty! Cool! My new role model!"
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Re: What women want from female characters

#8 Post by papillon »

Women are individuals. They all want entirely different things. Yes, there are general trends within a culture, but at ANY time, if you say "Men Want" or "Women Want" you are guaranteed to run smack into a man or woman who disagrees and probably feels insulted.

There are a lot of places where referring to women as "females" is considered dehumanising and extremely insulting. There are others where it isn't. :)

Some women are very hard on other women. Some men are very hard on other men. These things are sometimes done from jealousy and sometimes done from a sense of 'gender policing' - having a strong belief as to what a proper member of your gender should be like. And THAT sometimes comes from being insecure in your gender yourself, or from having been policed by others. And sometimes it doesn't!

Many *people* will respond badly to characters that are intended to be part of their "group" (whether that be gender, race, culture, or something else) but act like stereotypes or idiots.

---

Now, interestingly, I haven't seen _that_ much hate from female players for the datable girl in BxG games. Sure, I've seen some, but I've probably seen at least as many female players who PLAY BxG games and are totally fine with moeblobs. I've seen a lot more hate from female players for "traditional" GxB protagonists.


As for a character who personally annoyed me, I did a lot of ranting about Samara while i was struggling through Mass Effect 2. Her character design and the way the camera focused on her seemed TOTALLY gratuitous and not matching her actual personality at all. Whereas Miranda, who got more blog articles complaining about the camera staring at her ass, didn't bother me at all, and Jack *only* bothered me in the sense that she made the male/female skin imbalance in the game really obvious. Miranda and Jack's outfits and behavior seem in keeping with their characters.

Also, magic antigravity boobs.

But as I said, a lot of people were more annoyed by Miranda or Jack. We all make different judgments. :)

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Re: What women want from female characters

#9 Post by GJsoft »

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Re: What women want from female characters

#10 Post by Anthy »

I'm neutral about the boob thing usually. In anime-style at least, I just see huge perky boobs and perfectly form-fitting clothing the same as the exaggerated large eyes, long legs etc. Although when a character's outfit is impossible without use of lots of body glue, and it's somehow worn without using body glue, that's pretty weird. I think some character designers should study fashion and garment construction more, seriously.

I also see otome protagonists getting the most flak. I've played a fair number of GxB games, and there are only a small number of times I've really come across a protag that I'd call "useless" "stupid" or whatever everyone likes to paint them as. Most GxB protags I've played are either really normal, or pretty cool, and I have fun playing as them. Either way this stereotype of GxB protagonists I always hear about is in the minority. Maybe I just have better luck when picking out games to play.

When people obviously try hard to deviate from that stereotype, too, I find it really annoying. What's worst are the "feisty" girls who always go against the grain and scream "no!" as all the guys fall madly in love with her and she usually ends up with one of them regardless. >____>; Whenever I come across something like that in a game/fiction/etc I drop it like it's hot.

---------

Anyway... yeah, this is a very subjective topic! For me it also depends on the role/context of the character-- protagonist, main, supporting, etc. Like, I absolutely LOVE stoic females and upbeat 'tomboys' in terms of characters I'd want to pursue in a GxG game (in BxG, I've seen too many cases where they become domestic or bumbling moeblobs when I prefer a more submissive male in those kinds of relationships, it ruins everything, gah). BxG, I gravitate toward ojousama and crazy/eccentric types (bonus if they are a genius), though if they "break" at a certain point I get ticked off. I like tsunderes with minimal "dere".

And for protagonists, she can just be normal, but it's best when she has common sense and can play the "straight (wo?)man". It's also much much better when she's aware of her actions having an effect on the other characters, even if it's intentionally manipulative. Going so far as playing as a character who is seriously off-kilter or has a twisted sense of morals would be very interesting, but hard to pull off. And like I mentioned earlier, 'fiesty' characters are right out. I'm sure there would be a lot of people who disagree with me, though :)

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Re: What women want from female characters

#11 Post by HotLimit »

Auro-Cyanide wrote: I don't really expect to see a lot of female characters in historical or modern war settings. It just doesn't happen all that often.
It's not that it doesn't happen that often, it's because history is written by men :wink:
There are probably several instances of female warriors in the past who simply went undocumented, and I think it's completely realistic to have a historical fiction story about a female solider (or whatever) that never got her due.

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Re: What women want from female characters

#12 Post by papillon »

In most historical war settings, though, you aren't going to get a LOT of female warriors (However, that shouldn't be taken to be the same as 'none'. Same for non-white characters in historical Europe. They exist! They're just not *common*.)

There are many known cases of women fighting, often in disguise. There are doubtless many more we don't know about. Nothing wrong with having one or two in your story. You're just not going to get a 50/50 gender balance in most war scenarios if you're aiming for realism... of course, realism isn't always a primary or even desired goal in fiction.

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Re: What women want from female characters

#13 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

papillon wrote:Women are individuals. They all want entirely different things. Yes, there are general trends within a culture, but at ANY time, if you say "Men Want" or "Women Want" you are guaranteed to run smack into a man or woman who disagrees and probably feels insulted.
I agree that women are individuals. The problem is that female characters are sometimes not treated as individuals. Sometimes they barely qualify as characters.

The whole point of my topic is to ask everyone to think about purpose. Everything should come back to that. I basically want people to design their female character with depth and try and get in the characters head a little. How does the female character think about their sexuality for instance? Sometimes it doesn't get more complicated as 'well, this girl is a slut' and 'this girl is shy'. That doesn't describe an individual to me. I don't think I said anything that most women are going to disagree with. Most of us would want awesome female characters, right?

As for the historical thing, I have no doubt there have been women on the battlefield and some of them have even been documented. But I don't expect to see a lot of them, nor am I going to feel terribly insulted if there were no females. It would be understandable in the circumstances.

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Re: What women want from female characters

#14 Post by Anthy »

^ I think that's less of a problem in writing and more of a problem with society in general, though poor writing certainly doesn't help anyone.

I mean, a lot of people still are very uncomfortable with anything involving female + sexuality, so there's a huge dichotomy between the "eek don't look at me it's dirty" characters and the "she wears a short skirt and has big boobs so she's a slut" characters (ugh I hate that term being thrown around so casually... but yeah)

A lot of guys just can't write girls, either. There are a few who are really good, and they stand out, but it's equally if not more obvious when guys project their hang-ups, bitterness, or utter lack of knowledge on the female characters they write. Maybe they just don't know how women are wired, and that in reality it isn't that different from how men are wired, they're all human! :P In that kind of case I think more writers should study psychology (and make more friends haha), just like how some character designers would benefit from learning about fashion.

I always had an easier time giving female characters a true sense of purpose and complexity, but that's because I am a girl and so I feel like I can imagine certain kinds of scenes with more authenticity, have had many girl friends and my circle of male friends is limited (and aside from maybe one or two, I don't find them as inspiring. so with my male characters, I don't particularly base them off real guys I know, or I'd find myself wanting to punch my drawings/computer screen a little too often :lol: I still enjoy writing about boys though)

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Re: What women want from female characters

#15 Post by broken_angel »

This thread made me happy. C:

As a woman, I don't mind moeblobs and the like if they're in context. I also have a deep appreciation for female characters who are sexy, know it, and own their sexuality - the kind that wear revealing outfits not to be eye candy, but to use their assets to their advantage and to be the one in control. In that way, I actually like warriors with skimpy outfits, both male and female, even if it's not at all practical. xD There's just something so strong and feminine about a woman warrior wearing some light armor or something that accentuates her curves. Most RPGs generally disappoint me, only providing ugly armor that isn't feminine at all. :C

But huge gravity-defying boobs either make me laugh in a sad way, or they just turn me off completely. Example: Princess Lover. It looked cute from the AMVs I saw, but there was just too much boob focus...I stopped watching after the first episode. That being said, as a game maker, my character designs can sometimes get lost in translation when being drawn by the artists I hire. Take Zuleika, for example. She's supposed to be like 15-16 with a small, modest body. Instead, she looks more like she's around 20 and ended up with these impossibly big boobs, and I'm more inclined to make jokes about them (seriously, what kind of magic does she use to keep that dress on?) than to admire them. Can people still take her seriously as a protagonist? I wonder.

One of the tropes that really bothers me, though, is the girl who does everything for the male protagonist and is basically like his mother. Example would be Kaede from Shuffle! I absolutely hated her...until she went crazy. Then she finally had some personality. xD But the girls who just take care of the male character, feeding them, clothing them, doing everything for them, not getting upset when he goes after other girls (or does, but never acts on that jealousy), and of course - the staple of any wife-material love interest - nags him all the time about stupid stuff. That's when it gets really irritating for me, and why I don't play most BxG dating sim type games.

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