Lemma Soft Forums

Don't be Captain Obvious and say, "The difference between them is that one is for projects with a lot of progress and the other one is for possible games that might be worked on more." I'm sure that many of us know that it's not working out like it should.

Way back when PyTom was running the "LSF Forum Mandates" topics, many users were in favor of a new and oh-so shiny WIP forum that would encourage actual feedback on the game, not just squeals of how cute Character A is or how awesome Character B is. And I'm still seeing the not-very-occasional post about how people will "stalk" a thread. Also the not-too-rare instance of a newbie posting their latest concept in the WIP area. Don't get it yet? There's virtually no difference between the new WIP and the Ideas subforums. If creators asked a series of questions in their game's Ideas thread, they'd get the same result as if it were a WIP thread.

Are we really going to let all these changes go in vain and let the games in progress fall into anarchy again? Clearly users aren't reading the Sticky thread about posting in the WIP section, and the Player's Chat was ignored to the point that the Admins closed the thing. That's incredibly pathetic, if you ask me.

We need to change the forum culture to fix this, but if it continues to fall on deaf ears, then nothing productive is bound to happen.

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I agree. There are lots things we could be doing that are far more productive that what's been going on.

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Ha, I pretty much thought this was going to happen all along.
Even if Admins changed the rules, they can't change the way people act.
I also never really understood the point of the player's chat. I'm glad it's closed - I didn't think it should have existed in the first place. To me, it was very confusing to have more than one thread for one game.
I've also noticed that certain threads posted in the WIP were getting moved to Ideas... even though they had far more progress shown than some of the ones that are being allowed to stay. =w= It just seems very inconsistent.

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That just about sums it up.

You can't just go around changing the layout and expect the people to change, as well. I may not have been here very long, but even I can tell that there's something fundamentally wrong. I don't want to go about pointing fingers or anything, but a large part of the problem, as Moya said, is that so little of the commenting being done is constructive.

What we really need is to have all comments in one area or the other be constructive, and we need that to be ENFORCED. If you have to, employ some moderators to make sure that it's done. Basically, have them go through and delete any thread in the WIP section that isn't about a game with notable amounts of development put into it, and any post that's not giving something constructive and worthwhile. That is to say, no posts simply saying, "OMG, I love [character]!!! (S)He's so [adjective]!!" That's not helpful. That's obvious, and obnoxious, and wholly a waste of everyone's time.

TL;DR? Put some thought into enforcing the rules, not just laying them out.

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"Be not afraid of greatness: some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them."
William Shakespeare, "Twelfth Night"

The "I love this character" and the "I'm stalking this game" comments do help some people. They help provide motivation. I'm all for actually enforcing the rules, so I could understand deleting those comments when they were in the wrong place, but I don't think that would be a good idea now that there is no designated area for such comments.
I'd like to see the games in the WIP thread have to have actual progress enforced more.

When I'm writing a story, drawing sprites, changing the gameplay, I always know what I'm doing.
I discuss a lot with friends but also have my own idea / goal in mind - and all I need to hear is "aww, that looks cute, I look forward to it".
Critism is nice and such, and if someone can give me some I'll be glad and appreciate it, but hearing as this loveable comments aren't allowed here demotivates me incredibly.
I don't make games so that the player or reader has to sit down or a few hours to write an essay about it, but to enjoy it.
And when I see a game, an idea, some art that catches my eye I just want to tell them that I'll "stalk" they thread, as it's adorable and I look fowrad to it - saying "I'm interested and I trust you to make the best out of it, please go on with what you're doing" is sometimes all you need to hear.

Not all people want critism but if people see something in the concept that is just wrong they'll oint it out.
People who search advice and critism will always find some.
But if you cannot accept the people that just want to show their progress and get motivated a little than they might just be gone one day.
You cannot change the way the community acts, just your way of dealing with it.
You can either try to control everyone here or decide that we will solve this on our own - and never forget that if you decide to supress things people can just always go away. If this is your way of "fixing the community culture" than alright.

After all - what's wrong with saying that I like something?
It's not like this will keep me from giving constructiv critism whenever I think it's needed.

- R.

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I just spend a while going through WiP and Ideas, and moving threads that seemed out of place to me. I think the separation there - the requirement that discussion in WiP be about progress, rather than just ideas, so the conversation can be about specifics, rather than generalities.

I have to say, doing this triaging is really hard. To do it, you need to look at a thread and try to divine how far along the game is from it. I'm sure I screwed it up and offended someone, but I tried to make as many judgements as I can in the time allotted.

If a forum regular, someone with more than a couple hundreds posts and of good character, was to PM me and volunteer for the job, I'd give it to them. Orphans preferred.

I've kind of given up on the idea of keeping WiP developer focused. Too many people seem to use it as a means of promotion, rather than a place for development discussion. When you do that, users want to participate. At this point, all I can do is let them, and hope that the remaining developer discussion moves to the appropriate places in the creator corner.

Ryouko >>> It's fine to say you like something - but it's far far better if you can say _why_ you like it, rather than just saying that you like it. This way, other people can take that and use it to make their games better. When someone says "I'm stalking this game", that doesn't tell anyone anything.

I wish more people would challenge those short personal posts - ask the poster why they like the game in question.

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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face in marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt

Yeah, sure. but what if I don't really know because it's just this kinda feeling?
(You know, sometimes the feelings are far more important then the rest, as you don't want anyone to tell you at the end "the technique was nice and theoretically I should have liked it".)
I mean, sure, it's cooler if someone says "Hey, I like your story because the flow's really nice" instead of just a "I like it", but being told that they enjoyed it (which is the goal) is better then not getting any feedback because people simply don't have the time to analyse and write things like "I liked it, the rhetorical device in line 17 really pepped this up".
Sometimes it's just not easy to understand why you like it - especially with WIPs that don't have a demo.
What am I supposed to say there besides if it seems to fall into my taste or not?

- R.

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I'm not saying that these sort of comments should be removed completely, but there should be more substance to them. I see the usual three-liners, and I think to myself, "Why? Why do you like it? Is it because it's pretty and shiny?" Instead of stating the reason why they're attracted to one project than another one, they just say a generic comment about how they look forward to it and so on. It doesn't have too be particularly deep or mindblowing at all! Just a simple reason will do. So yeah, I'm with PyTom on this one.

I don't want that type of community, and I'm sure that no one would want to do that to LSF either. All I ask is for people to say something meaningful along with their encouragement; put what the creator wants in terms of feedback in a blender along with your motivation-booster, then serve it as a nice and refreshing smoothie.

I'll trust your judgement when someone applies for the job.

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Visit the OELVN wiki at the top of the forum! We have free assets, programs, tutorials, tips and more over there. I'm the administrator, PM me if you want to help organize the place. I could use a hand.

Oh boy. We are just going in circles with this really.

1. We need all comments of all shapes, sizes and types. Constructive comments are cool, postive feel good ones are cool. It's all good, they mean something in different ways.

2. The onnus is on the DEVELOPER to provide content, not really the viewer. We should be looking at our own projects and what we need to do instead of thinking about what people should and should not say. If you provide good content, people are waaaaay more inclined to comment on it in a more productive manner. A project isn't going to be completed by comments, it's going to be done with work.

3. I'm not sure how strict the mods are with the WiP forum in terms of progress, but that's really there gig. I've seen good moves and I've seen some not be moved. That's really for them to decide on how it's going to go. I personally think it could be a little stricter, but I'm more concerned with what I'm doing anyway.

4. If you want to make a change, get going. You can't make others do what you want, but you can do it yourself. This culture isn't going to magically pop out of nowhere. If a couple people took a leaf out of gekiganwing's book, it would be a good start. (Seriously gekiganwing you do such a great job ^_^b)

Overall, this was never going to happen overnight and the admin are only human. Create change by facilitating it.

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After reading the sticky, I went ahead... and created a thread in the wrong section. Besides "sorry for that, should have asked first!", I have two things to say:

First, I think the rules could be more detailed: "title screen and all character sprites done", "more than 50% of the script", "at least 5 minutes of complete gameplay". People follow instructions with numbers and absolute terms better.

Second, maybe threads should only be created in the Ideas section, and the respective creators could PM the WiP moderator with evidence of their progress to ask to move the thread to WiP. I think this would reduce the amount of work and potential for drama.

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Keep your script in your Dropbox folder.
It allows you to share files with your team, keeps backups of previous versions, and is ridiculously easy to use.

I think that's a good idea. It'd be easy to implement too. Just lock the WIP board, which forces people to post in Ideas.

Otherwise, we might as well merge the two boards again if there's going to be no functional difference.

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I've got to agree with most of you. I'm having a hard time distinguishing between the ideas and the actual works in progress. It certainly seems like an interesting idea (locking the WIP board) although it would mean more work on the part of the mods, who have a pretty tough job already.

In terms of comments like "Ooh! So cool! *stalks*" I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I've made some of those myself. I really do try to come up with more productive things to say, but sometimes, that's all that there is to be said. That's why I'm resolving here to PM those comments in the future instead of posting them and wasting everyone else's time. Thinking about it, most people will appreciate a PM more than a comment anyway (at least, I would). Also, the recipient is probably the only one that that comment is relevant to, so it just seems to be more efficient.

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Not really checking the forums any more due to time constraints, so if you want to contact me, PM. I'll get a notification and log in.
Also, I've been hit and run posting, which means I don't see many replies. If you want to respond to something I've said, also feel free to PM me.

Why don't we have a little bit of the old cratus to the demos? Power to the people and all that.
Let the developers themselves post in their threads what kind of comments they'd like to receive.
You know, a short litte "Constructive comments only please" or "Worship me, for I am your new god".

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YES

That idea certainly makes sense. Sadly, it won't deal with the people who read a little bit, then post (or read nothing). Then again, I'm not sure anything would deal with those people.

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Not really checking the forums any more due to time constraints, so if you want to contact me, PM. I'll get a notification and log in.
Also, I've been hit and run posting, which means I don't see many replies. If you want to respond to something I've said, also feel free to PM me.