Lemma Soft Forums

Post your questions & comments about visual novels, anime, and video games!
It is currently Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:09 pm 
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:51 am
Posts: 302
Location: Singapore
Projects: Lakeside Sunset, Wedding Vows, Working Woman
Preliminary note: This is a post meant to provide insights and provoke thought about the character creation process, by outlining a different approach to the problem. It's also fairly image-heavy.

Start with this maxim:

Quote:
"Every character is best defined not by what he or she does, but by their relationship with the characters and environment around them."


The above is my own paraphrase of a few statements by Orson Scott Card, author of the Ender's Game sci-fi saga, writing about his experiences in creating meaningful, impactful stories. I know there's some problems with that maxim, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it to be true for now. What this means is that, when creating characters for stories, the most important thing to define is NOT what types of physical traits or personality quirks they have, but rather what relationships they have with the other characters in the story.

One of the problems I see in the current batch of VNs being produced is that there is a lack of depth and complexity in the characters. And I trace it largely to this underlying problem - that we focus too much on the individual traits of a particular character, and not enough on the social and relational environment around them. I think, in order to progress into deeper and more meaningful stories, we must start thinking more about relationships in the VNs / KNs that we create. Let's look at a few diagrams to show what I mean.

Basically, for any story, I look at three things:
1) Can I, as the player, control the decisions of a character in the story?
2) Can I, as the player, affect the relationship between characters in a story, based upon my decision?
3) How much are the characters in a story affected by the decision made by other characters? (i.e. how strong are their relationships to each other?)

Now, take your typical "My First Project" story. This is likely to be a 2-person KN or VN, focusing sharply on the single relationship between two characters. This is what they look like:

Image Image

As you can tell, both of these are very simple relationship structures, nowhere near the complexity of a novel, say, or sometimes even a short story in prose. The main difference between the two is that in a VN, you can control the decisions of the character in blue, and this can affect your relationship with the other character. However, because of their single setting in space/time, chances are you can't really show the depth of the relationship between characters to a great extent, so the ties isn't aren't strong as it could be (indicated by a thinner thread). To strengthen the relationship between these characters (and therefore add depth and complexity to the characterization), you need to either show them in multiple situations at different times or places, or bring other characters in that could affect them.

Image

Compare "Ripples" to "Metropolitan Blues", for example. Both are good examples of the 2-person VN relationship structure, but the difference is that Metropolitan Blues allows for more variety and complexity of situations to exist, therefore adding depth to the characters as they are affected differently by different situations (this could actually form a separate topic on its own, so I won't go too much into depth on this.) Alternatively, you can bring in other characters which can affect the two main characters. This is what Tying Threads and Songs of Araiah did, effectively.

Image Image

Here, the decisions of a third party character affects the decisions and attitude of the protagonist character, adding more complexity and depth to their characterizations. However, these effects must be made visible to the player, clearly and explicitly. Tying Threads has a good example of this, because the relationship with the middle-school boy, although it cannot be affected by anything the player does, has a profound effect on Allen's future thoughts on relationships, and actually can affect the player's decisions (and ending results) when it comes to Cheryl. Without that scene, the player would not understand Allen's problems as much, and hence the character would have less emotional depth. Likewise, Denz's decisions affect Jason's decisions very strongly in Araiah, and that provides additional insight into Jason's character.

Then, look at the typical harem VN or dating-sim game relationship structure:

Image

You have your typical protagonist, with relationships to three (or more) girls. There's a best friend who usually gives advice / jokes based on his own understanding of the three girls, and usually a rival who is also pursuing the girl(s). You can control the actions of the protagonist, and his relationship with the three girls. However, that's about it. There's not much control over the relationship with the friend, the three girls are usually unconnected from each other, and the rival and protagonist don't really affect each other much. Plus, you don't even see what happens between the rival and the girls, so effectively, the relationship between them looks weak to the player. That's why many dating-sim games seem to end up having shallow characters. Every decision you make only affects one character, and one relationship. There's no knock-on effects like you would get in a real life situation, except in terms of opportunity cost (spending time with one girl means you don't spend time with another).

Frankly, not much has been done to improve in this area. Big budget commercial VNs usually have something more complex than this, which is why they perform better. You can have rivalries and relationship problems among the girls themselves, or between your friend and the girls, or there could be problems between you and your rival. Our closest example to approaching this would be Ori, Ochi Onoe:

Image

(Note: It's also possible that Heileen might fit, but I haven't played the full version, so I can't tell. Elven Relations also comes fairly close, but still not quite, I think.)

In any case, for O3, it's interesting because there is a strong tie between Ori and Ochi, thus, Ochi's moods and attitude are shown to be strongly affected by her relationship with Ori. For those of you who've played the game, you can see how this affects the mood and depth of characterization quite clearly. However, there's still potential untapped in this genre. Onoe isn't really connected to them, and the decisions of the player towards Ori or Ochi don't really affect the relationship between the sisters much (ie. the relationship between Ori and Ochi cannot be affected / controlled by the player).

So here's my thoughts on the matter. It would be very interesting to see if someone can create a powerful, tightly-bound relationship web, where ALL the characters matter to each other, and ALL relationships can be affected by the player's decisions. The classic example of this in traditional storytelling is, of course, the love triangle. However, to make it stronger, the two rivals should also be closely connected to each other, to give a more compelling story. If any of you have read or seen the manga/anime Touch, by Adachi Mitsuru, you can clearly see the emotional power that can come out of such a triangle.

Challenge #1: All characters affect each other strongly, all relationships affected by one person's decisions

Image

I don't think this has been really done yet in our community, but it seems like the logical next step for VNs to make in terms of progress in storytelling techniques. Examples of this would be something like two best friends / siblings falling for the same person, or two parents and their child struggling through divorce proceedings, or three shipwrecked survivors in a lifeboat trying to decide who to kill and eat so that the other two can survive. The theme doesn't matter - it's the intensity and complexity of the relationships between characters which is important.

And then, after that, you could try a few things, such as either letting the player control multiple characters, to affect multiple relationships, as shown in Challenge 2. Here, the player can control not just the decisions of one character, but the decisions of all characters, and the combined effects of the decision should affect the relationships between all three characters, in a strong way.

Challenge #2: Multiple-perspectives on a relationship triangle

Image

Alternatively, instead of providing multiple perspectives, you could try expanding the cast list to harem-standards, while still trying to keep the same level of depth and complexity in the relationships between all the characters. Now, here it's obvious that the player's decisions in one character may not be able to affect ALL the relationships in the game, but the point here is to show that all the characters are closely connected to each other, and can be affected by each's other's attitudes. So what would be needed here are scenes without the main protagonist, that instead show how two other characters affect each other. This probably can't be done in first-person view, so you may need a disembodied narrator instead. But this would roughly approach the level of complexity of a typical novel.

Challenge #3: Strongly-connected harem characters

Image

Of course, if someone was really ambitious, I suppose they could try duplicating Clannad's relationship web:

Image

(And this is still the simplified form, with only the main characters and some supporting ones, and not taking into account the two separate situations of the High School and After Story arc!) But I think this clearly goes to show the gap between what we're doing now and the complexity of modern-day VNs. As authors and storytellers, we have much further to go before we can reach the heights of the medium. Let's not be satisfied with still keeping to the same tired structures, but push for greater depth and complexity of characters, by thinking about how relationships define them, and working on those.

Thoughts, opinions, arguments?

-Dizzy-

_________________
A smart man follows the rules, a dumb man breaks them. A great man bends the rules and thus creates them.
Fanfiction.net Profile.
Writer and director of Working Woman (NaNoRenO March 2010)
Writer and director of Wedding Vows (finished 2009).
Creator of Lakeside Sunset (finished 2006).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:01 am 
King of MoƩ
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:49 pm
Posts: 1514
Location: Iowa, United States
Projects: Homeward, Sunrider
Nice essay. I don't have anything more to add, except a shameless plug of something I made a few months ago. Luckily, I've made some changes to the story, so I think I can show it without spoiling too much.

Image

A while ago, I randomly decided to make a relationship chart between the characters of Sunrider. I could have made more connections between the characters, but I gave up because I quickly ran out of room.

Here's a nice tool to make character relationship charts with.
http://www.habitualindolence.net/labyrinth/

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:16 am 
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:58 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Phoenix
You guys are big nerds....


:P

_________________
Current Projects:
The Isle of St Marcus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:35 am 
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:58 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Phoenix
I finally read all of this. I think you're right, having multiple characters affect one another makes for a greater story but I believe it would lead to a less "immersive" experience for the reader. Since they're following a dozen relationships instead of their own they may lose their sense of purpose.

I think VNs do a very very low level version of managing relationships between other characters. I've played games where you take a girl on a date and the other girl finds out and gets mad at you... then this girl has a grudge with the date girl going forward... things of that nature. Your choice affecting multiple relationships with you AND between characters as well, but like I said, it's limited.

_________________
Current Projects:
The Isle of St Marcus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:05 am 
Eileen-Class Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:57 pm
Posts: 1151
Location: Cambridge, UK
Projects: Elven Relations 2: Mermaid Liaisons
Something I've wanted to see for a while is a ren'ai VN where the protagonist A has some interaction with both parties B and C who are (or can be) in a relationship with each other, and can affect the course (or formation) of that relationship.

One obvious way to do this is to have B be a romanceable character who A's attracted to, and C be the other potential partner for B.

I actually had something like this planned in Beautiful Days, the huge sprawling dating sim I was planning for a while before I realised it was never going to get finished and cut it down substantially to become Elven Relations.

I can see how Elven Relations vaguely approached what dizzcity's after, but it didn't really get there. In one of the endings, A and B get together and so do C and D, where C is a separately romanceable character with her own endings. (Actually, didn't TsundereLightning's VN Transformation Sequence do that too?) But in ER's case, the relation to actual actions the protagonist took was pretty shaky.

There's something heading a little further in this direction in Mermaid Liaisons. I don't want to give too much away, but there's definitely more potential to influence the relationships between non-protagonist characters in one or two cases.

_________________
Author of Elven Relations (IntRenAiMo 2007), When I Rule The World (NaNoRenO 2005), Cloud Fairy (Cute Light & Fluffy, 2009), the TileEngine and UnitEngine (LSF@5), and the fantasy novel Ultimate Dream (NaNoWriMo 2006 onwards).
In development (progress slow but ongoing):
Elven Relations 2: Mermaid Liaisons: Story 96% done, script 75% done, character art 95% done, event CGs 60% done, backgrounds 50% done, customisation 0% done; demo available


Last edited by chronoluminaire on Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:24 am 
Eileen-Class Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Posts: 1716
Projects: Currently in progress: Magical Diary
I think I tossed around the concept of a Poly VN in ideas dump once, which would obviously have an interesting mess of interlocking relationships... :)

Fatal Hearts has relationships with knock-on effects, but because it's a 'mystery' game in some ways, much of what happens does so behind the scenes and has to be pieced together from multiple playthroughs. After getting a few endings you'll know why Lucy was acting strangely on a lot of paths... but working out exactly what's going on between Jeremy and Elizabeth, and why Elizabeth
dies
in some paths but not others, and why they
get together
in one of the endings, is more obscure. :)

_________________
Anime Games


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:17 am 
Regular

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 1:52 pm
Posts: 143
ugghhh....

This discussion even surpass the high-profile discussions on storytelling & interactive narration typical of rec.arts.int-fiction.... I'm awed on how this VN scene quickly make huge bounds & leaps towards maturity.... :shock: :shock: :shock:

I'll digest (both means....) the points in the discussion and perhaps I'll give my humble opinion....

Best regards from Italy, and Fair Winds !
Dott. Piergiorgio.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:54 pm 
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:58 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Phoenix
I also wanted to comment on his first point, where characters seem shallow in some of our VNs because we define them as

Sally
Age 17
Blonde Hair
Likes Onion Pizza
Plays on the Soccer team
Obnoxious/Brash
blah blah blah

when we should be describing them based on their interaction with the main character...

Sally
- bump into her in the hallway and she punches you
- you have trouble making the soccer team and she helps you
- you bug her about having onion breath after your first kiss
- blah blah blah

I'm not 100% sure he's right about this solving the fact that characters seem boring or not very in-depth, but it sounds logical.

_________________
Current Projects:
The Isle of St Marcus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:56 pm 
Miko-Class Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 604
Location: Santiago, Chile, SA
Completed: Ripples(remix), Jisei, The Flower Shop
Projects: Flight of Twilight, Winter in Fairbrook
My dropped Caramel Mokaccino is/was like that. The theme of the whole things (though treated very lightheartedly) was friendship and bonds between people.
While each character had their own issues that could be solved by taking "their route", Some character had problems that involved other main characters, so you would have to go and approach all of the involved parties in order to figure things out and solve them. They could also just not solve their problems or solve them on their own with the help of other characters in other situations.
For example, Character C and D were winnable. You get to know that they were actually in a relationship before, and depending on what you did, you could end up with either of them, have them restore their relationship or not influence them in that way at all.

I hope my friend will write it someday, it was really fun =o=;

_________________
ImageImage
My Blog~ | My Portfolio | My dA Gallery


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:37 pm 
Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:55 am
Posts: 51
Location: SL, UT
It'd be interesting to see a story with a wisecracking best friend who actually has a crush on one of the girls you're pursuing and ends up stabbing you in the back and stealing her away.

_________________
Discipline or Lack - My current projects and my progress on them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:39 pm 
Regular

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 1:52 pm
Posts: 143
lorddon wrote:
It'd be interesting to see a story with a wisecracking best friend who actually has a crush on one of the girls you're pursuing and ends up stabbing you in the back and stealing her away.


Well, for a start, this by itself nullify the point, because you self-spoiler your (nasty) coup de scene :wink: :mrgreen:

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:08 pm 
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:51 am
Posts: 302
Location: Singapore
Projects: Lakeside Sunset, Wedding Vows, Working Woman
Wow, thanks for the comments! It does seem like quite a number of projects are all slowly heading in this direction, so hopefully we will be able to achieve it one day. ^^

Um... dstarsboy, your example with Sally is not exactly what I was picturing. What you were doing was basically showing the outward manifestations of the character's traits once again. I mean, it's still a good direction to think about, and it serves as a foundation to my approach, but I'm trying to move even further beyond that, to a completely different mode of thinking, focused entirely on defining character through relationships and social identity, not traits. Samu-kun's example comes a little closer.

Think of a character's internal identity / personality as the thing that determines their actions / decisions. This self-identity is affected and revealed by the thoughts and actions of other characters around her.

For example:
- Sally perceives herself as unattractive, because she has heard from other girls in her class that she's too tomboyish (because she plays soccer). She feels insecure as a result of that, so cannot act feminine in front of the main character.
- If you, as the main character, act in any way to call her unattractive (like commenting on the onion breath), it strengthens that negative self-perception of hers, and she acts tomboyish because that's how she feels like.

So Sally's profile would be:
- Gets called tomboyish by other girls because she plays soccer.
- Because she values the opinion of the other girls (strong relationship tie), she becomes insecure about her feminity and attractiveness, so acts brash / obnoxious because she thinks that's how tomboys behave.
- (This, of course, reinforces the belief in the other girls that she's a tomboy, but she doesn't know how to break the cycle...)
- Will display tomboyish behaviour towards the main character if he reinforces that belief about her unattractiveness.

This approach can seem to be a rather long-winded way of coming to one action (she punches the main character if he comments on her onion breath), but the benefit of this is that you have a very stable foundation to extend that character's behaviour to a variety of different situations and relationships with other characters. The character becomes more internally-consistent with herself.

For example, with this, you can pose interesting questions like:
1) What would cause Sally to leave the soccer team?
2) How can you make Sally feel more attractive / break the cycle of insecurity? (i.e. how to change a tsun-tsun into a dere-dere?)
3) If you are a member of the soccer team, how would Sally treat you in the presence of other girls?
4) What kind of girl friends would Sally attract? What kind of enemies would she attract? What would they talk about?

These are all significant events that can trigger internal examinations of Sally's character, and let the player know just what sort of person she really is, beneath her outward actions.

Alternatively, if you make just one change - Sally has weak relationship ties to the girls, so doesn't care about their opinion, then a totally different character behaviour pattern might emerge. And thus, a totally different set of problems to overcome in the relationship.

- She doesn't care about the opinion of ther girls - she plays soccer and eats onion pizza because she wants to. Sally has high self-esteem and acts obnoxious and brash because she simply doesn't care how other people perceive her.
- If she feels totally self-sufficient, will your actions have any effect on her? How can you get closer to her? By acting weak so that she can constantly lend you her strength?
- Will she actually change because of your teasing about the onion breath, or just tell you to eat onion pizza too?
- How will she respond if she is rejected by the soccer team's coach for a game? What would you have to do to affect that situation?
- How will she respond if you start acting obnoxious and brash as well?
- What would cause Sally to leave the soccer team NOW?

You can see how a different behaviour pattern (although both are still stereotypes) emerge based on just one change - how much the character allows "public opinion" to affect her self-identity (i.e. what her relationship is with the girls in her class). This can be extrapolated out to a variety of situations and circumstances, and will in turn affect her relationship dynamics with other characters. Just calling a character a "tomboy", or "obnoxious and brash", doesn't cover the reasons and motivation underneath why she acts that way. But if you can define those motivations based upon their social and self-identity, then you can extend that characterization to almost any situation.

-Dizzy-

P.S. Social psychology FTW!

_________________
A smart man follows the rules, a dumb man breaks them. A great man bends the rules and thus creates them.
Fanfiction.net Profile.
Writer and director of Working Woman (NaNoRenO March 2010)
Writer and director of Wedding Vows (finished 2009).
Creator of Lakeside Sunset (finished 2006).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Relationship Webs and Characters in VN
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:15 am 
Eileen-Class Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:57 pm
Posts: 1151
Location: Cambridge, UK
Projects: Elven Relations 2: Mermaid Liaisons
dizzcity wrote:
Just calling a character a "tomboy", or "obnoxious and brash", doesn't cover the reasons and motivation underneath why she acts that way. But if you can define those motivations based upon their social and self-identity, then you can extend that characterization to almost any situation.
Yay, absolutely. There are a number of in-character explanations for why tsundere characters act that way, from childhood trauma to a strong desire for independence, and it's fun when a new one gets shown.

That was one of the great moments in writing Elven Relations, actually - when I got to a deep enough understanding of Tohko that I knew why she acted tsundere, what the causes for that were - and she progressed beyond stereotype tsundere into a real character with hopes and fears, strengths and weaknesses. I was really glad to be able to show the player a reasonable amount of that, on her path, particularly on her best ending :)

_________________
Author of Elven Relations (IntRenAiMo 2007), When I Rule The World (NaNoRenO 2005), Cloud Fairy (Cute Light & Fluffy, 2009), the TileEngine and UnitEngine (LSF@5), and the fantasy novel Ultimate Dream (NaNoWriMo 2006 onwards).
In development (progress slow but ongoing):
Elven Relations 2: Mermaid Liaisons: Story 96% done, script 75% done, character art 95% done, event CGs 60% done, backgrounds 50% done, customisation 0% done; demo available


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group