Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#46 Post by truefaiterman »

I think this is a game and, as such media, there's no way we can evade that "manipulating" feel from it as far as we offer the player a chance to choose how s/he wants the story to unfold.

I believe the best way of "avoiding" this is making the player feel like in a RPG with multiple choices: if you don't make your choices too obvious, the player shouldn't think "I want this to win [LOVEINTEREST] points", but instead "I want to do THIS because I FEEL like it".

If we manage to do that, the players will get a natural ending, related with their personalities and what they actually wanted to do with the story. Of course, in subsequent playthrougs they'll just aim for other routes and the "manipulation" will happen, but really, that's perfectly normal here, this is a videogame.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#47 Post by noeinan »

(Posted a bit about this in the Ideas Dump thread, but I thought it was relevant here as well.)

I was thinking that one way to reduce the problematic manipulative elements of a game would be to make some items concerning romance completely out of the control of the player. The player may get to choose what type of character they want to be, but depending on who they choose their relationship options become limited. The other character would then have tastes, and some kind of agency of their own-- their boundaries would not be crossed. For example:

A) the love interests orientation-- maybe they're not into girls, so if you're a girl this route is closed off.

B) events get triggered based on what the love interest is attracted to. Ex. maybe you have several different styles of clothing, and that person is *really* into one sort of style (formal clothes, punk rock, super girly, whatever.) You catch their eye! Maybe they have a fetish for something (glasses, animal ears, swimsuits) and depending on your choices in game these get triggered (doing an animal cafe for a festival, being a part of the swim club, etc.)

C) Of course, dialogue choices-- there would be some dialogue choices that would make them think of you in a romantic way rather than just as a friend. (Already implemented normally; however, when combined with the first two this can provide a more thoughtful look at player/love interest interaction. Perhaps some of these conversations or conversation options can only be unlocked via the first two, for example.)

I also think providing the option to develop different *types* of relationships with characters instead of just good, bad, and mediocre romantic options. I would personally incorporate three stats instead of one: Platonic, Romantic, and Communication. Platonic is your trust with that character, how much your relationship builds, and this is mostly what most routes do (only they make it a romantic route.) Romantic may be limited by the above discussed points.

The communication stat would come up during dialogue-- there will be an opportunity for you to talk to the love interest about your relationship, and define what kind of relationship that is. You get communication points for openly and honestly discussing what you want, and asking what they want-- you lose points for dodging the subject or giving ambiguous answers.

You can become anyone's friend by talking to them the right way, treating them how they like, and presenting yourself as interesting-- but for romance, they notice *you* for your traits-- you, the player, get to pick what traits you have, but if you are not the right kind of person or are not attractive to that love interest you just can't have a romance with them because they don't feel attracted to you in that way. The communication bit I like because come on-- how can you even have a healthy relationship without it. :D

For any character, your ending with them is based on your relationship status-- acquaintances won't get you anywhere, but you could be friends, or best friends, or in a relationship, or even in an open relationship (might get complex!)-- and each ending could go better or worse depending on your communication skills. (You could get a friend ending, but with poor communication you eventually drift a part. In a relationship, things are good with high communication, but you break up in an ugly way with low communication, etc.)

Anywho, I plan to work this kind of mechanic into my future games, but if anyone else likes it they are also free to use it. I think it would be really cool to see games develop a more thoughtful approach, mechanically, towards relationships.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#48 Post by SinSisters »

@daikiraikimi
I think that's a really cool idea! And like truefaiterman said, I think that VNs should reflect more of a natural choice feeling than an 'I have to follow the walkthrough otherwise I'll never get on any path'. Personally, I love the thought of choices affecting the protagonist's personality, rather than who they end up with, though the former in turn would affect the latter. It could even be as simple as telling someone "I like girls" or "I like guys". Determining the MC's would be pretty cool. Yes, it would be manipulating the MC, but you're changing who you 'are', not who you could end up with

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#49 Post by Nekobiker »

All human relationships are manipulation. I find it surprising and a little confusing that some people consider this to be a bad thing. We want to appeal to the people we like, and we do that by choosing to do and say... things that appeal to them. This is in no way dubious, it's simply how things work. If you buy me a Snickers and want to hang out with me, should my natural reaction be "this person is trying to manipulate me into liking them"? That's more than a little paranoid and unproductive. It's on the same shelf with "every day I'm closer to dying": while true, it's not a healthy attitude to have towards the world and its basic dynamics.

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#50 Post by Milkymalk »

Agreed.

When you are acting in order for someone to like you more, you are manipulating. That's a given. But don't forget that this is the case in practically any healthy relationship!

In a relationship, you are making an active effort so that your significant other feels comfortable around you. No matter how naturally you try to behave, you are changing your behaviour as soon as you start to care what someone else thinks about you. Maybe you are tidier than you'd be if you were living alone. Maybe you eat less fast food and cook more/eat your partner's cooking. Maybe you try that movie he/she really likes and would like to watch with you that you would otherwise never have touched. Maybe you will start help taking care of your partner's pet that you wouldn't have otherwise even though it's a hassle. There are many ways, the point is: You are doing things not because you suddenly changed your personality, but because it appeals to your partner.

Now if a character in a VN falls in love with you for receiving minor favors, that's character is either really lonely, really desperate, or really badly written. But there is nothing wrong with, for example, getting "I-Like-You-Points" for making decisions that appeal to this specific character and that, if sufficient, unlock the possibility of getting a characters route in which his/her love for the player is explained by plot events.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#51 Post by noeinan »

Hm, but I think there are different kinds of manipulation. Manipulation is a power that can be used for good or bad-- ex. used to hurt people or used to make people's lives better.

The main issue with manipulation as a negative factor is dishonesty. When two people are getting to know one another, naturally they will both get the idea that they mutually want the same goal, friendship, that such goal is beneficial to both of them, and that the other person will also be working hard for that goal. This is acceptable, normal "manipulation" (though I would argue it's not so much manipulation as simply... people skills! Tact. etc.)

On the other hand, when something is framed as me vs them, where I am manipulating in order to override their needs and their desires in favor of my own, that is a bad thing. When what I am doing is not for mutual benefit, when I am dishonest about it. If I present myself as wanting one type of relationship while subtly manipulating it into another type. This has more potential to harm other people.

The reason I think that folks have spoken out against manipulation in romance vns is that it does not take into account the other characters wants and needs. The players needs are completely dominant-- the character wants the player character, the routes are more or less just to choose which character you want, and their desires don't even come into the picture.

That's why I feel the idea I proposed somewhat alleviates this (of course, with any mechanic, I believe that good writing can produce good results, characters with agency, etc. while bad writing is liable to be more manipulative, more single sided.) It actually inputs the love interests needs and desires into the mechanic itself. While good writing can overcome a lot, a mechanic structured to make creators think about their love interests wants and needs can turn perhaps take an inexperienced or mediocre writer and help them develop very well thought out characters, characters who impact the game instead of being controlled by the game.

I feel it also can help a writer develop, and become better, by getting into the habit of asking those questions.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#52 Post by aviatrix8 »

daikiraikimi wrote:Hm, but I think there are different kinds of manipulation. Manipulation is a power that can be used for good or bad-- ex. used to hurt people or used to make people's lives better.
It's funny you should explain the distinction between good manipulation and bad manipulation, since I'm working on a VN that plays on that very idea...

The MC in my planned VN is a fairy godmother (already a manipulative character), and some of the choices she can make have 3 different alignments: Light, Love and Dark.

Light are obviously the good choices, but they're more about the MC helping others grow as people, and involve tough love. (The secret love interest is also unlocked by this alignment, since it implies that they share similar morals with the MC.)

Love are the romantic choices, and can be regarded as selfish since you're trying to get your godchild to fall in love with you. I originally listed this as Neutral, but since some of those choices might seem confusingly positive (playing to the godchild's strength, rather than encouraging them to attempt something more difficult), I ended up changing it to Love.

Dark choices encourages poor behaviour, and also sows dissent among the other characters, ultimately for the MC's gain.

I know this sounds like I'm pimping my VN idea, but I thought it would be relevant to the conversation. ^_^; (Haven't even posted my VN idea yet, heh...)

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#53 Post by noeinan »

I think that sounds like a really cool story idea-- and I like that the godmother going after her godchildren isn't necessarily considered a righteous thing. (Dynamics of power and ethical things that come from that.)
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#54 Post by verysunshine »

Mad Harlequin wrote:This is essentially my biggest problem with the "dating sim" mechanic/concept/whatever. You can sweet-talk your way into the arms of any given love interest if you say the right things. I'm not sure if this can really be avoided in any VN that includes relationships as a feature, because as others have said, we're turning relationships into stats to be managed. But what we can do is make the interaction between player and character less predictable, and make it so that it's not a trophy to be obtained. The characters should be able to stand on their own without player-character romance as well.
Isn't this an issue with any multiple-ending visual novel, not just the romance ones? If there's an ending you know you want, you're going to try to manipulate the choices to end up at that ending.

Build the basics first, then add all the fun bits.

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#55 Post by noeinan »

verysunshine wrote:Isn't this an issue with any multiple-ending visual novel, not just the romance ones? If there's an ending you know you want, you're going to try to manipulate the choices to end up at that ending.
I think it's the difference between manipulating events to get an outcome you want, and manipulating *people* to get them into a relationship with you.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#56 Post by fioricca »

daikiraikimi wrote:(Posted a bit about this in the Ideas Dump thread, but I thought it was relevant here as well.)

I was thinking that one way to reduce the problematic manipulative elements of a game would be to make some items concerning romance completely out of the control of the player. The player may get to choose what type of character they want to be, but depending on who they choose their relationship options become limited. The other character would then have tastes, and some kind of agency of their own-- their boundaries would not be crossed. For example:

A) the love interests orientation-- maybe they're not into girls, so if you're a girl this route is closed off.

B) events get triggered based on what the love interest is attracted to. Ex. maybe you have several different styles of clothing, and that person is *really* into one sort of style (formal clothes, punk rock, super girly, whatever.) You catch their eye! Maybe they have a fetish for something (glasses, animal ears, swimsuits) and depending on your choices in game these get triggered (doing an animal cafe for a festival, being a part of the swim club, etc.)

C) Of course, dialogue choices-- there would be some dialogue choices that would make them think of you in a romantic way rather than just as a friend. (Already implemented normally; however, when combined with the first two this can provide a more thoughtful look at player/love interest interaction. Perhaps some of these conversations or conversation options can only be unlocked via the first two, for example.)

I also think providing the option to develop different *types* of relationships with characters instead of just good, bad, and mediocre romantic options. I would personally incorporate three stats instead of one: Platonic, Romantic, and Communication. Platonic is your trust with that character, how much your relationship builds, and this is mostly what most routes do (only they make it a romantic route.) Romantic may be limited by the above discussed points.

The communication stat would come up during dialogue-- there will be an opportunity for you to talk to the love interest about your relationship, and define what kind of relationship that is. You get communication points for openly and honestly discussing what you want, and asking what they want-- you lose points for dodging the subject or giving ambiguous answers.

You can become anyone's friend by talking to them the right way, treating them how they like, and presenting yourself as interesting-- but for romance, they notice *you* for your traits-- you, the player, get to pick what traits you have, but if you are not the right kind of person or are not attractive to that love interest you just can't have a romance with them because they don't feel attracted to you in that way. The communication bit I like because come on-- how can you even have a healthy relationship without it. :D

For any character, your ending with them is based on your relationship status-- acquaintances won't get you anywhere, but you could be friends, or best friends, or in a relationship, or even in an open relationship (might get complex!)-- and each ending could go better or worse depending on your communication skills. (You could get a friend ending, but with poor communication you eventually drift a part. In a relationship, things are good with high communication, but you break up in an ugly way with low communication, etc.)

Anywho, I plan to work this kind of mechanic into my future games, but if anyone else likes it they are also free to use it. I think it would be really cool to see games develop a more thoughtful approach, mechanically, towards relationships.
Isn't this still rather systemic though? So if I want to go for love interest A, I have to make sure I'm not playing as a girl. Games are after all systems and there are goals, so if I'm a completionist who wants to collect all the endings and CGs I wouldn't be playing 'true to myself' in any way. If the choices are too complex guides will surface. And we can talk about giving each choice equal weight but each 'ending' is still a form of 'goal' because the goal of storytelling mediums is to get to the end.
papillon wrote:However, if scoring points to 'win' someone makes you uneasy, you can have romance in a game without gamifying the romance. Put the romance on the side. Have the story be mostly about fighting the big bad, while your relationship with your sidekick bubbles along quietly throughout the course of the adventure. Or make the romance a given - start straight up with the idea that this game is not about WHETHER they will get together, but HOW they will get together.
I'm inclined to agree with Papillion on this one (as always, wise comments). In every game system there will be goals (endings in a VN context) and win-lose conditions (good endings and bad endings, although if I am specifically aiming for a bad ending then I will intentionally screw my choices up). I'm sure we can have organic dialogue and lots of dynamic stuff like stats-raising or dress-up or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that a system is still a system, even if you create a super dynamic AI that responds to a wide range of factors.

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#57 Post by noeinan »

fioricca wrote: Isn't this still rather systemic though? So if I want to go for love interest A, I have to make sure I'm not playing as a girl. Games are after all systems and there are goals, so if I'm a completionist who wants to collect all the endings and CGs I wouldn't be playing 'true to myself' in any way. If the choices are too complex guides will surface. And we can talk about giving each choice equal weight but each 'ending' is still a form of 'goal' because the goal of storytelling mediums is to get to the end.
Personally, I don't see the system as the manipulative part. I see it as a problem where the game mechanics concentrate completely on what the player/MC wants and needs, and not about what the love interest wants and needs. To me, it's about adding a give and take, rather than completely removing the methodology.

If you want to have a relationship with LI A, you have to be a girl-- choosing to be a girl isn't manipulating anyone. The fact is, you decide to play as a girl, and that character is gay. They won't go for men, so unless you're a girl there is no chance for romance. And just being a girl isn't enough-- no one would fall in love with just *anyone* of the proper gender. Maybe you only unlock their romance by choosing a certain style or personality options, because that is what said character is attracted to.

No matter what, video game romance is an illusion, the characters aren't actual people, and what makes the story good, the characters good, is to give the impression that there is more than what you're seeing in the game. That's what it means to make an entertaining story, interesting characters, etc. The player needs to be able to believe there is an entire history behind this country, that this political dispute has been building up for dozens of years, that these characters have lives outside of the main character, outside of the player, outside of the game. That they have their own agency, their own wants and needs.

Adding a little more complexity into the gameplay adds to this illusion, creates a mechanic that takes other characters wants and needs into account, and thus comes off as less manipulative and systematic. One could argue that simply by adding a mechanic to account for other characters wants and needs, the game is becoming less manipulative because it's not one person using the other. But in the end, you can just pick the right choices to get what you want. (Unless you add random chance, but then you can start over until you get what you want.) I feel if the other character has a say in how two people fall in love, and if they do in the first place, (or at least, as much of an illusion of choice as the creator can make) then it falls into less of a moral pitfall.
fioricca wrote:
papillon wrote:However, if scoring points to 'win' someone makes you uneasy, you can have romance in a game without gamifying the romance. Put the romance on the side. Have the story be mostly about fighting the big bad, while your relationship with your sidekick bubbles along quietly throughout the course of the adventure. Or make the romance a given - start straight up with the idea that this game is not about WHETHER they will get together, but HOW they will get together.
Yeah, I think the only way to completely get rid of the system is to take the choice out of romance all together. Just make it a romance plot, the player gets no choices, and it's happening along with the rest of the story. But I think a lot of people play romance games because they want that choice, they want the relationships to be more in depth and the main focus of the story. Your only real option to avoid a system is to go join a romance pbp (play by post-- online role-playing) forum and play a romance out with a real person. Or wait until we invent independent artificial intelligence. (But I'd argue there wouldn't be a way to know when we reached that point.)
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#58 Post by Milkymalk »

Choosing your sex in a game is still manipulation as well as choosing your personality traits. You choose them for a reason, if not at first then at the second playthrough. There is not much of a difference between giving an answer that a given LI might like and selecting a sex that this LI would consider dating for this sole reason.
The only way to circumvent this all is to randomize everything, which could be interesting, but also makes it unlikely a player will ever see all routes/endings - because he can't MANIPULATE the game into going on any given route.

To be honest, I don't see any problem with the manipulation thing. It's a game, and if it's about romancing one of several possible LIs, then of course I will make choices that helpme achivieve that goal. More importantly, It doesn't mean that my MC is being manipulative or dishonest, it just means that I decided he would be the kind of person to make this choice. It's like role playing.
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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#59 Post by E-night »

The LI's in a romance game are not on our level of awareness and they cannot be manipulated by that reason alone. In most game they have built in likes and dislikes and they only like the MC if s/he conform to their like and dislikeas presented in the form of getting/taken lovepoints (in most games). It doesn't matter how many stats there are or what the stats represent, it takes their wants into considerations. Those plus/minus points (or whatever system is up) is a representation of their wants... heck in most cases the LI's wants are taken more into considerations than the MC's since only a few games tracks how much the MC likes the LI and it is just taken for granted that of course they like the LI back.

That doesn't mean that there aren't MC's who are manipulative. I consider persona 3/4's MC's manipulative, but that is because they for one is aware of the social bonds and semi-aware of the mechanic and have an outright stated goal of getting as close as possible to as many people as possible,

But overly generic school gal/guy who joins the art club and meet painter girl and then the two falls in love isn't manipulative nor is the story, which isn't even a character or the player, who does not exist in the world.

Painter girl only falls in love with our MC's because s/he joined the art club, had s/he joined the sports club our MC wouldn't have been painter girls type and she wouldn't have liked him/her.

The players are not in the game. .They play/read the game. The fact that the game or vn also contain more stories where perhaps it doesn't work out, doesn't invalidate the romance of the stories where it does. It is simply the strength of the of the medium to be able to contain more stories than one. The good ending is only the "asshole" ending if the MC or the LI (let's not forget the many, many manipulative LI's - espically in otome and bl) are jerks.

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Re: Romance VNs/Dating Sims are dubious manipulation games?

#60 Post by noeinan »

Milkymalk wrote:Choosing your sex in a game is still manipulation as well as choosing your personality traits.
In general, I think many people are worried that games like this train the player to be manipulative. Under that logic, choosing your sex is not something a person in real life can do easily. I would say some games could definitely "train" a player into abuser, but realistically... I would say those games are in the minority. (And in that minority, I would think domination/submission games would take a good deal of those numbers, and the BDSM community in general tends to be very educated on issues of consent/sex education in general-- so less risk that they will mistake fantasy behavior for acceptable reality.)

I think that for me personally, I am less worried about directly training abusers, and more worried about how games portray healthy relationships. Such as the MC coming off as manipulative towards the LI (or the reverse) and the game portrays abusive relationships as healthy and normal. Because more than hurting the feelings of those fictional characters, people (especially younger, or generally less romantically experienced people) may take those social queues and apply them to their real world relationships.

Ex. A

In games, the MC always has a lot of people to choose from, and those people make the first move. Some players think this is how romance works, and believe they are undesireable because they don't have people around them who are interested. (That they see.) Instead of taking the reigns of their own life, they lament that they are not good enough.

Ex. B

In the game, the LI is extremely harsh to the MC, playing out many well known abuser tactics, but no matter what horrible things they do it's always seen as okay because they actually truly love the MC. People get the idea that such abuse is normal, that it is normal to act like this to others, and that it's normal to suffer like that in a relationship.
(This is not necessarily every asshole LI-- just the ones who act abusive, but are portrayed as if this is normal behavior. A game about abuse, where the abuse is clearly not acceptable but happens for plot reasons, is less likely to have this issue.)


Though, in general, I do like more thoughtful mechanics just because it is more interesting and fun than very basic relationship points.
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