Making Games more Interesting?

[OokamiKasumi]

Making Games more Interesting?

...Being semi proficient in python, writing, and most art/music development, I decided to try ... to make a <visual novel>. The only problem I'm running into ... is I can't seem to wrap my head around the multi-path portion of the medium and keep it interesting. I decided to write straight-forward separate stories for each path and then intertwine them through choices, but I can't seem to make any meaningful conflict beyond the first few chapters.

Would you believe I'm having the exact same problem?
-- It's one of the reasons I've been looking into other text based games, such as Choice of Games and also, Echo Bazaar, and Night Circus, created by FailBetter Games to see what makes those games interesting to their players.

According to what I've seen, Choices are fun all by themselves, but the key appears to be RISK, or Cost to the player. It isn't merely that their choices Cost them turns, or points, or time, or whatever, but that that their choices invariably Close Doors while Opening others.

Technically speaking, a Choice triggers a minor Adrenaline rush; similar to what Gamblers feel. Then, once the choice is made, their choice brings the emotion of Loss. "I chose this, now I can't choose that." The game designers seem to be pushing this Rush even harder by making the RESULTS of their choice both a Gain AND a LOSS --not strictly a Gain-- which is Interesting, or more accurately: Frightening, which also triggers an adrenaline rush.

Pattern
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choice A = Risk
Choice B = Risk --> Loss + Gain --> New set of Choices
Choice C = Risk

Unfortunately, that's the sum total of what I've come up with so far. I haven't figured out how to APPLY this knowledge in a game. As soon as I do, believe me, I will post my findings.

Thinking maybe it's my characters I've poured thousands of words and quite a few hours into character development, but no matter how distinct they are, conflict and suspense are either not believable or just plain boring and/or cliche.

Truthfully? I don't think your Characters are the problem. I suspect that it's what's happening TO your characters, and what the characters choose to DO about it that's the key.

For example, FailBetter Games, and Choice of Games both use Character choices at the very beginning, but this is only to create a sense of Player Immersion. All the choices following those are EVENT choices. "What will you (as this character) DO in This situation?"

This means that your first instinct --fix the plot-- was Right.

I also realized that what made these games interesting to me; what made me even want to play them, was the SETTING. Where the story is taking place: in a horror fantasy London, on a pirate ship, in a Dark Carnival... In other words, what drew me to these particular games was the idea of Exploring a new environment.

But that's ME.
-- I don't know how true this is for others.

One game in particular did use Character as a point of interest: Choice of Dragons. This game was entirely Character Choice, but it fizzled out on me --it got Boring-- after a while.

Out of sheer curiosity as to why this happened, I broke the game down to a list of what I was choosing and what my decisions led to. It was then that I realized that it didn't have enough EVENT choices to keep me interested. Yes, I was a big fire-breathing dragon, but there just weren't enough things to DO as a fire-breathing dragon. Seriously!

This led me to the conclusion that Event Choices were the key to making a game interesting.
-- However, again, I don't know how true this is for others.

My question is ... is there a way to make (real-life) characters more dynamic and interesting without plain going over the top or adding "the end all be all conspiracy/world destruction" element just to make realistic interesting? ... Making believable and interesting interactions between average characters in any-town, anywhere is proving to be a difficult task, even with a curve-ball thrown in from time to time.

Rather than focus on your characters, I suggest focusing on the Events that happen to those characters. Make the Choices on how the player wants to handle these events interesting, and you will make the Game interesting.

My suggestion would be to start by making a List of interesting Events that could happen to your characters in such a setting.

Mundane World examples:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• a mugging
  a robbery
  a seduction from someone unexpected
  witness to a criminal event
  witness to a romantic event
  a job offer
  getting fired
  hunting for a home
  a troublesome lover
  a troublesome sibling
  a troublesome pet
  a troublesome roommate
  a troublesome neighbor
  a new friend with a Dark Past
  a new lover with a Dark Past
  a parent with a Dark Past
  a Boss with a Dark Past

None of these are Magical, but if the Results of the player's Choices are handled with Humor, or even Horror, they all have the potential to be Quite interesting.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay! That's the sum total of my knowledge in these areas.
-- What about you guys? Do You have any advice?

[misteen]

I found your post really interesting. I agree with your point of view regarding choices and events that need to be stimulating and somewhat risky.

I played some vns in which there were the "speak or don't speak to a girl" or similar choices, that were appropriate for the mood of the story but not that exciting for me. Such choices didn't trigger major events at once, the story continued at its pace, eventually something changed later with the path course.
Usually the main character's got their own personality, so, in order for the story to go on smoothly main choices are left to them in most cases. Well, I played few visual novels so far, so I'm speaking with really little experience ^ ^"

Personally, for the story I'm writing right now, my main character's got a well defined personality as well, but I'm trying to make choices for the player more risky in order to let him or her decide for the mc's destiny.

In my opinion, events you listed are quite interesting, expecially the "character with dark past" section. I think a meeting that would change drastically the mc's life would be compelling because the player would be forced to choose the new unknown path that's opening in front of him, or to continue living a life that would also be appealing to him in both cases loosing/gaining something important. I don't know if I succeded in explaining, what I wanted to say is that it would be fine building choices and events that would make the player stop for a moment and think about what choice would be best, like you do in real life. Maybe it's something that would stress some players but for me is what I'm trying to achieve with my script right now.

As you said the setting of a vn could be quite appealing, I chose some vns for this reason too. But for me story goes first: if the situation becomes risky as the story goes on, or there are unpredictable plot twists, I find myself unable to quit the game.

[OokamiKasumi]

I found your post really interesting. I agree with your point of view regarding choices and events that need to be stimulating and somewhat risky.

Thank you!
-- Risky options puts pressure on the player, but it also build Excitement!

I played some vns in which there were the "speak or don't speak to a girl" or similar choices, that were appropriate for the mood of the story but not that exciting for me.

How exciting would it have been if the options had been more like:

• "Say something nice?"
  "Say something sarcastic?"
  "Look away and keep walking."

Personally, for the story I'm writing right now, my main character's got a well defined personality as well, but I'm trying to make choices for the player more risky in order to let him or her decide for the mc's destiny.

Sounds like your game will actually be Fun to play.

In my opinion, events you listed are quite interesting, especially the "character with dark past" section.

After a certain age, most people have things in their past they want to forget, so this option is very realistic, but also exciting.

I think a meeting that would change drastically the mc's life would be compelling ...and... appealing to him in both cases loosing/gaining something important.

Absolutely! But something like this can also be difficult to put in a game because it means writing a minimum of two vastly different Stories for one game. I suspect that we don't see more of this precisely because of the amount of writing it would take.

...it would be fine building choices and events that would make the player stop for a moment and think about what choice would be best, like you do in real life. Maybe it's something that would stress some players but for me is what I'm trying to achieve with my script right now.

Fantastic! Just be careful not to bite off more than you can swallow. This could too easily become a game too large to complete on your own.

As you said the setting of a vn could be quite appealing, I chose some vns for this reason too. But for me story goes first: if the situation becomes risky as the story goes on, or there are unpredictable plot twists, I find myself unable to quit the game.

Same here! I love complicated stories -- and games.

[Greeny]

I find that the most interesting moments happen when you take two characters who don't get along, and then you put them in a room together. Bonus points if they try to drag the protagonist into it (without it being an obvious "pick the side of the route you want to take" kind of deal).

[trooper6]

My idea of player choice comes from my time as a GM of table top RPGs and the sort of games I like to run.

I don't run hack'n'slash games. I am bored to death of the "you are the chosen one to save the universe" sort of plots. I'm tired of combat being used as a stand-in for excitement. I'm tired of stakes that are so global that they cease to become personal.

When I design an RPG session, I try to work on choices that ultimately challenge the PCs character and self-conception. Not, "can I do this," but "should I do this?" I once ran an adventure where the players were tasked to infiltrate a base where scientists had a cure for cancer, but were keeping it suppressed and deliver it to a group who wanted to distribute it for free around the world. In the process they learned about larger political maneuvering between the two factions (the Order group with the cure and the Chaos/Freedom group who wanted to steal it). The faction hiring them would gain a lot of good will for curing all that cancer...and with the good will, political influence...did they want that? The group suppressing the cancer drug spend all sort of money to develop it. Didn't they have the right to suppress the cure if they wanted? And also, they argued, curing cancer would destabilize society and cause long term overpopulation. Then it turned out the Order group also had a weapon that could give people cancer...which they used to keep governments stable and behaving well. And then one of the PCs got hit with the cancer gun in the process of the investigation. There was a lot more to it, but the planning and infiltration of the mountain base, the ski chases and gun battles...those weren't the exciting choices. The most exciting bits came when the PCs finally got the cure for cancer and then had to decide amongst themselves what to do with it.

There was another adventure when the heroes were bodyguards and tasked, on their honor as gentlemen and professionals, to protect this diplomat...who turned out to be a terrible person...and also to have assassins after him...and he seemed to be plotting something bad...but they weren't sure about that. Do they fulfill their mission and protect the horrible diplomat? To they betray their Oath and let the assassins kill the diplomat? Do they kill the diplomat themselves? Do they find some other way around this conundrum?

Some of the choices I give result in big plot branch changes, but sometimes they are really about making the player realize something profound about their character--about what really matters to them, about who they really are.

That's what I like!

As for VN world...I'd like to have more of that sort of thing than 'Talk to the girl/boy' or 'Don't'--but we'll see how that goes. On the other hand, one of the differences between table-top RPG and VN's is that I can do more thematic exploration in the VN. I may have choices because they reinforce the theme of the game. They may not branch the plot (or they might). They may not define the character (or they might). But they may bring themes of the work into relief.

Anyhow, I think the author just needs to know what is at stake, what the work is about, and why the choice matters, and then structure the choices to best support that.

[OokamiKasumi]

I find that the most interesting moments happen when you take two characters who don't get along, and then you put them in a room together. Bonus points if they try to drag the protagonist into it (without it being an obvious "pick the side of the route you want to take" kind of deal).

That's going to be difficult to accomplish if the game is being advertised as a Romance game. The label gives it away right there. However, if it's Not a romance game, I can see that as being very possible.

My idea of player choice comes from my time as a GM of table top RPGs and the sort of games I like to run.

I don't run hack'n'slash games. I am bored to death of the "you are the chosen one to save the universe" sort of plots. I'm tired of combat being used as a stand-in for excitement. I'm tired of stakes that are so global that they cease to become personal.

That stuff bores me to tears too.

When I design an RPG session, I try to work on choices that ultimately challenge the PCs character and self-conception. Not, "can I do this," but "should I do this?"

There was another adventure when the heroes were bodyguards and tasked, on their honor as gentlemen and professionals, to protect this diplomat...who turned out to be a terrible person... ... Do they fulfill their mission and protect the horrible diplomat? To they betray their Oath and let the assassins kill the diplomat? Do they kill the diplomat themselves? Do they find some other way around this conundrum?

Some of the choices I give result in big plot branch changes, but sometimes they are really about making the player realize something profound about their character--about what really matters to them, about who they really are.

That's what I like!

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to put this into a VN. In fact, it sounds like it would be an extremely good match.

...one of the differences between table-top RPG and VN's is that I can do more thematic exploration in the VN. I may have choices because they reinforce the theme of the game. They may not branch the plot (or they might). They may not define the character (or they might). But they may bring themes of the work into relief.

Anyhow, I think the author just needs to know what is at stake, what the work is about, and why the choice matters, and then structure the choices to best support that.

Agreed, but can you break down HOW one does this into a usable recipe?
-- That's actually what we're trying to accomplish here.

[trooper6]

...one of the differences between table-top RPG and VN's is that I can do more thematic exploration in the VN. I may have choices because they reinforce the theme of the game. They may not branch the plot (or they might). They may not define the character (or they might). But they may bring themes of the work into relief.

Anyhow, I think the author just needs to know what is at stake, what the work is about, and why the choice matters, and then structure the choices to best support that.

Agreed, but can you break down HOW once does this into a usable recipe?
-- That's actually what we're trying to accomplish here.

I don't think there is a recipe that can applied everywhere. I think it is contextual.

I think you have to ask the two big questions:
What themes am I trying to explore, and what kind of choices can I incorporate to help support that theme?
What genre am I trying to work with, and what kind of choices can I incorporate to help support/subvert that genre?

Then the next four big questions:
Do I want to have a game where player choice changes who the character is or would I prefer a fixed character. If a changeable character, what choices can I incorporate to help support player shaping character? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.
Do I want to have a game with major plot branches or would I prefer on branch with some different ending? If multiple major branches, what choices can I incorporate to help bring those branches about meaningfully? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.
Do I want to have a game where player choice effects endings or perception of the plot without creating major branches? If so, what choices can I incorporate to help bring about those different endings or perceptions of the plot? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.
Do I want to incorporate any particular gameplay mechanic and are there choices that I can incorporate that could support or flow from that gameplay? What choices can I incorporate to help enhance and interact with that gameplay? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

Then the Sophie's Choice question:
Can I come up with at least one choice that will force the player to challenge their sense of who they are or who their character is? Something that will be difficult for the player, something they can't "game"--the real hard choice. Preferably only as long as it supports the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

But I don't think there is just a single recipe.

A Close Shave (a literary sort of VN) is going to have very different sorts of choices than the game after that (a game that subverts the dating/romance genre for political purposes).

But further, genres with iconic characters don't tend to have the characters change over time. They don't go through a character transformation arc, rather, they change the world around them. Pulp is a good example of this. You are not going to want to have character changing choices in that sort of game, but you will have character revealing choices. If it is a fixed plot sort of game you might not want that sort of choice...but you'll want choices where the character affects the world somehow...because that is part of the way those stories are structured. If it is a more optimistic pulp...like Flash Gordon, no Sophie's Choices. If it is a dark pulp, like a crime noir...than lots of Sophie's Choices.

In a psychological thriller...then you need character change choices. etc. So...I don't think there is one recipe. I think there is just categories of things to think about when you are analyzing what you looking to do. And my list is not even complete.

That said. I imagine you could probably come up with a paint-by-numbers make these kinds of choices for one particular genre. Say, crime pulp. But to do that, you'd have to immerse yourself in the genre to really, really internalize its conventions, and then you could come up with a more specific set of genre conventions for the sorts of choices are more appropriate or less appropriate...but I don't think you could really make a recipe for all VNs in general regardless of genre.

One last think. I find Sophie's Choices to be wonderful and I love them. Other people hate them and don't want to have anything hard or depressing in what they see as escapist fantasy. I like media with protagonists who are...well...very flawed. Other people don't like that sort of thing at all. So...a Hero game will have different things that will count as interesting choices than an Anti-Hero game.

[OokamiKasumi]

Agreed, but can you break down HOW once does this into a usable recipe?
-- That's actually what we're trying to accomplish here.

I don't think there is a recipe that can applied everywhere. I think it is contextual.

I agree, no one recipe will work with Everything, but what recipe would work with YOUR technique?

I think you have to ask the two big questions:

• What themes am I trying to explore?
• -- What kind of choices can I incorporate to help support that theme?

• What genre am I trying to work with?
• -- What kind of choices can I incorporate to help support/subvert that genre?

Then the next four big questions:

• Do I want to have a game where player choice changes who the character is?
• -- If a changeable character, what choices can I incorporate to help support player shaping character? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.
• Would I prefer a fixed character?

• Do I want to have a game with major plot branches?
• -- If multiple major branches, what choices can I incorporate to help bring those branches about meaningfully? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

• Would I prefer one branch with some different ending?
• Do I want to have a game where player choice effects endings or perception of the plot without creating major branches?
• -- If so, what choices can I incorporate to help bring about those different endings or perceptions of the plot? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

• Do I want to incorporate any particular game-play mechanic?
• -- Are there choices that I can incorporate that could support or flow from that game-play?
• -- What choices can I incorporate to help enhance and interact with that game-play? Preferably supporting the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

Then the Sophie's Choice question:

• Can I come up with at least one choice that will force the player to challenge their sense of who they are or who their character is?
• -- Something that will be difficult for the player, something they can't "game"--the real hard choice. Preferably only as long as it supports the themes of the game and supporting/subverting the genre.

These are an excellent start for deciding what KIND of game you want to build, and deciding on a Framework for you want to accomplish, but where do you go from Here? What do you do once you've answered these questions?

For example, once I know the answer to these questions for my games, I open my mind-mapping program (FreePlane) and Plot out what choices are possible, and what directions those choices will take the game.

It was by plotting the games out that I discovered that several of my ideas wouldn't work at all as a game. Sometimes it was because it made the game way too big for me to handle, sometimes it was because the story I wanted to use simply wouldn't allow for player choices, and sometimes what I wanted to accomplish just wouldn't work with a story.

There are times when I can still work my idea into a game, but other times I can't.

But I don't think there is just a single recipe.

I agree, there isn't just One.
-- But you clearly have an idea of what to do with Your way of doing things.

A Close Shave (a literary sort of VN) is going to have very different sorts of choices than the game after that (a game that subverts the dating/romance genre for political purposes).

One would hope so! LOL!