Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#16 Post by Katta »

OokamiKasumi wrote: I don't like this mindset either. I suspect that it comes from the point of view of some that believe that VNs are merely "Games with Story Elements."
-- Since Games are supposed to have Winners and Losers, this encourages "game" creators to make Winning endings and Losing endings.

On the other hand, those of us who actually write Stories, tend to see VNs as "Stories with Game Elements."
-- Because Stories come in Comedic endings, Dramatic endings, and Tragic endings --not winners or losers-- "Story" creators tend to make EACH ending True for the version of the Story created by the players' selections. This is the mindset of the original "Choose Your Own Adventure" games because the first ones were created by authors of Fantasy fiction -- story writers, not game makers.
I always thought the reason is quite the opposite, when a writer makes his novel into a game and adds other possibilities just because players dislike KNs, he regards his original novel a true story and these added possibilities "what ifs". On the other hand when gamers start the story they already think about different possibilities of the game because that's what they would like to play themselves, not read a story but actually affect it and get an interesting result in every case.

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#17 Post by PyTom »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:As for labeling endings in a game, I find it annoying and unwanted. Like others have said, I don't want it implied my ending was not "true". It would be like Mass Effect declaring one of the endings to its trilogy as "canon", it would destroy the interactive elements of the story. (It's why I don't care for the Ending Editing DLC they released - it can now never be part of MY true ending to 3 games worth of first time choices...).
Although I don't think this is what you meant, I do think it's good to actually label endings - Ending 1 of 4, Eileen Ending, whatever - just so people can talk about them. I think it's hard to really discuss a game - either from a fan perspective, or from a game design perspective, if you don't have names for the various portions of it. Especially, in a multipath case, where people may not have seen the same content.

For the same reason, I think it's good to let people know how many endings exist. I can point out a game that I loved that I'm pretty sure had an ending that I never found, because I didn't bother looking for it after clearing all the other endings. To me, that's kind of a shame - and it's something that could easily have been avoided.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#18 Post by truefaiterman »

I also think categorizing endings is good, just for the comfortability. BUT clasifying them in "Good/Bad/etc" is... pretty stupid, also for reasons stated in this thread.

I think the idea of a True/Golden Ending is good ONLY if the story has GOOD reasons for it.

I'm thinking about two examples, 999 and Kara no Shoujo.

999 (HUGE spoilers, BRUTAL):
You can only access the True Ending once you get the "Normal" one, so the whole "mind data transfering through space-time" makes sense. If you also get the bad endings (which are all about the main character (and most of the crew) getting killed, and not resolving the nonary game) you'll understand more things, but they're not required.
Kara no Shoujo (Mild spoilers):
I think the True Ending is locked at any momment, BUT... It's completely impossible to get it without a guide... or by getting all of the other endings, even the worst ones (!). To get this ending, you have to make your choices know EXACTLY who is who, knowing what will happen, and getting to the real culprit from the very beginning. And I think in this case it's not treated as a "true", but as a "Golden ending" only possible if the main character is literally a god of investigation xDDDDD.
As long as it's well executed, and makes sense context-wise, I'm pretty ok with True Endings. Of course, if such ending is just like any other (so it's the good or canon one just for the heck of it), or it's clearly shoe-horned (did I write that well?), I'll get really angry about it.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#19 Post by OokamiKasumi »

Katta wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote: -- Because Stories come in Comedic endings, Dramatic endings, and Tragic endings --not winners or losers-- "Story" creators tend to make EACH ending True for the version of the Story created by the players' selections.
I always thought the reason is quite the opposite, when a writer makes his novel into a game and adds other possibilities ... he regards his original novel a true story and these added possibilities "what ifs".
Inexperienced writers may very well think this way; in terms of One Story, simply because One Story is often all they have. Seasoned professionals don't because they never have only One story running though their heads. With the pressure a professional is under to produce, and produce, and produce for their publishers, they automatically think in terms of Multiple stories (plot-lines), or Chains of stories (plots) -- not just One, even when they are focused on creating one particular story.

This happens in the creation process of a single story during examination of all options and outcomes --the domino effect of one decision as opposed to another. To make a story go in a specific direction; toward one specific ending, one needs to Know and Counter every single possible option BEFORE it comes up. When one separates out the many different options and consequences of those options, one can come up with multiple stories simultaneously.

A good example of how many plot directions I can think in simultaneously is my Story Generator game -- and I am not the only professional author in the forum.

Because of this, a trained professional is also more likely to come up with Too Many options (choices) and endings in their games than too few, simply because they tend to think in too many plot directions at once.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#20 Post by Didules »

PyTom wrote:Although I don't think this is what you meant, I do think it's good to actually label endings - Ending 1 of 4, Eileen Ending, whatever - just so people can talk about them. I think it's hard to really discuss a game - either from a fan perspective, or from a game design perspective, if you don't have names for the various portions of it. Especially, in a multipath case, where people may not have seen the same content.
I totally agree with you, though to me the names shouldn't carry any sort of judgement (for instance, "Eileen ending" is okay since it just tells that it's the ending concerning the eileen-part of the story) and then, if the endings are true, good and bad is up to me to decide.

I also agree that the player has to know how many endings there are (and many people here probably think so, because in almost every thread there is the number of endings written) but then giving them name could be risky: as a player I do want to know how many endings there are, but not what are in the endings ("Eileen-ending/wedding" for instance is the meanest name I could think of, because it tells what will happen and spoils the story). That may be the hardest part about choosing a name for endings, I guess.

About true endings that unlocks after a certain number of endings has been played, I'm against. I usually play a game enough time so I'll have all the endings, but it takes quite some time, and to know there's still one ending, even though I did (almost) everything is just like "Hey, you have to play it again, lol". That's not even funny anymore. To me, playing a hundred times the same game just to get all the endings is a waste of time. Aren't true endings just one ending among the others? Then making it as a reward is just to favour it. And that's not fair.

(I hope I explained well what was on my mind, sorry if it's not clear enough)

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#21 Post by KaenSe4 »

Well if you think about it, for a regular story, there is a single ending, which we may call the "True Ending." With visual novels it's a bit different. Since most visual novels have multiple endings to choose from, there must be an ending that the creators originally plan for the story; one that the creators think suits best for it. I personally think that classifying "Good" and "Bad" Endings are the player's choice; I mean, good or bad, endings are endings. However, it makes sense that creators have the right to create an ending that they wanted the story to ultimately have.

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#22 Post by trooper6 »

But I don't create one ending that I want the game to have and then tack on other endings I don't like just because I feel I have to. If I have only one ending I want, then I'll make that one ending and not give options otherwise..at least not in terms of that ending situation. I'll interactivity happen in another way.

Rather, I create a story that is made for this medium...in other words if there will be multiple meanings, all of them are true. There is not one I prefer...or at least I don't think my preferences are important because this is an interactive medium...and death of the author and all that (I am a professional writer in a way...but primarily academic writing...where I think a lot about the relationship between author and audience and complicating that relationship).

My first game, "A Close Shave," the writing is done. I need to proofread the ending blocks and then prepare the list of different sprite expressions in order to commission art. So What are the endings and how many are there?

I'm not really going to count and give a specific number because I don't think the number is all that meaningful--or I didn't create the endings in that way. I didn't create 3 endings, then have one that I like best, and then two others that are just out there. I have created a matrix of different ending elements that follow from player actions and then the ending that happens is constructed out of the elements the player has made throughout the game. So, I don't even think of them as *my* endings, but the endings the players create themselves by their management of the protagonist. So any ending constructed is true to what happened. It doesn't have to do with me. Yeah, I wrote them, but I did it in a simulationist way where I thought through certain protagonist choices and then follow through with what would follow from those choices. And it took quite a bit of flow charting in order to work it out...but I did. So they are all true and my preference isn't relevant to the creation of the story the players does when they play it.

Now, are there bad things that might happen to the protagonist in this game? Yes...but I'm interested in wondering if payers will perceive bad things happening to the protagonist as a good thing or a bad thing. Because the protagonist isn't a very nice person. So will the players try to reform the protagonist? Will the player revel in the self-centeredness of protagonist and think his plans are justified? Will the player engineer the destruction of the protagonist as punishment for the protagonist's past deeds? Will the player replicate the protagonist's arrogant cruelty? I don't know! I'd be interested in finding out!

There are two characters. The Customer (Point of view character) and The Barber.
At the end of the game a range of good and bad things can happen to the Customer and to the Barber. But I don't know what the player will get ending wise...and I don't know how the player will feel about the endings. One player may think the Customer's ethics are terrible and so may feel good about punishing the Customer or foiling the Customer's plans. Another player may really enjoy the Customer's ethics and feel great if the Customer succeeds in getting that shave in ten minutes and doing what he plans on doing afterwards. So I can't say what is a good or a bad ending for any particular player as they support or subvert the customer in the journey.

So...no true endings and fake endings, and no universalizing ideas of good and bad endings.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#23 Post by LVUER »

Do You Like Horny Bunnies took an interesting approach on this one. In the sequel you play as a different protagonist with all different girls but in same place as the first game. So obviously protagonist from first game should shows up in the game too. Considering this is a BxG game with multiple heroines, so which girl ends up with the protagonist from first game?
It depends on which routes you're on. So if you're on girl A route, you will meet the protag from first game being together with girl X (both from first game). But if you're on girl B route, the protag from first game will be together with girl Y instead.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#24 Post by Didules »

LVUER wrote:
It depends on which routes you're on. So if you're on girl A route, you will meet the protag from first game being together with girl X (both from first game). But if you're on girl B route, the protag from first game will be together with girl Y instead.
This is indeed an intersting way to make another game that would be a sequel without using the "canon ending" thing, but isn't it somehow like erasing the player's path in the first game by putting all of the players in the same basket?
Like "in the first game you could end up with her, so we made a route where you meet the last protag with her, but since you could have ended up with Y-girl, we also made a route where you meet him with Y-girl", etc?
It's like refuting the logic of VN which is that you can make you own story by just playing to a game. Then in this situation:
I played to the first game and ended up with girl X. This is my own "true ending" because it was the one I liked the most.
I play to the second game and I am in girl W path, but I meet the last protag with Girl-Y.
I would feel as if I had been deceived all along! (I think the tenses are wrong in my sentence, sorry)
Basically, I am strongly opposed to making sequel games of VN (on side-non important-characters that's okay), because it implies that some of the complex branching of the first game will be forgotten, because it would be impossible to make a new game including every fact of the previous game in every routes of the new one without making something awfully complex and impossible to understand.
To me, what happened in a game happened. If the next one isn't taking what happened in consideration, then it is not a good sequel.

This may be a bit extreme, but that's my point of view. (And it it's probably not clear at all, sorry)
(Besides, there are very good games that are bad sequels to me, it doesn't mean the game itself will be bad or anything) (and it's just my point of view of course) (I didn't mean to insult anyone, so if you're actually making a sequel of one of your games, keep going)

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#25 Post by Ophelia »

OokamiKasumi wrote: It's not a problem, it's a Style.
-- However those of us that play VNs specifically for their Stories can feel cheated if the ending we (the individual players) seek to achieve turns out to be short-changed in detail and emotional impact compared to the ending the Creator liked best, and designated as True or Canon.

I don't see this as being a problem at all -- as long as you detail all the other endings with as much care as your Canon ending.
I see, thank you for your opinion!

Guess I'm not gonna label my endings as true or normal endings or the like. :)

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#26 Post by trooper6 »

Didules wrote: Basically, I am strongly opposed to making sequel games of VN (on side-non important-characters that's okay), because it implies that some of the complex branching of the first game will be forgotten, because it would be impossible to make a new game including every fact of the previous game in every routes of the new one without making something awfully complex and impossible to understand.
To me, what happened in a game happened. If the next one isn't taking what happened in consideration, then it is not a good sequel.
I have to say, I think quite a few computer RPGs have figured out how to do sequels really well. I think the Mass Effect series was superb at this. To finish the game and continue from ME1 to ME2 you had to survive and the final boss battle. So...that big ending point is the same for everyone else. But they tracked all the other information on the choices made in the game. And those choices showed up and mattered in ME2. In ME2, there are a number of things that could happen at the end...including your protag died. In which case you couldn't port that save over to ME3...because you are dead. But if your protag is not dead, you could port over that save and continue in ME3. However, at the end of ME2, it is possible for quite of few of your companions to die as well. And if they die? They are dead in ME3. And the game tracks quite a few of your choices from ME2 and remembers your choices from ME1. I think the creators said that tracked 1000 different choices from ME1 and ME2 and then incorporated those choices into ME3.

So ME3. I loved it, including the ending. People said all three endings were the same...to which I vehemently disagree. The last 10 minutes had a similar ending cut scene, but the implications of those ending were very different. But, more importantly, the ending wasn't the last 10 minutes. The entire last few hours of the game was the end, and all those choices I had made in the 100 hours previously showed up in ways big and small. And it was amazingly wonderful to me. And all those things really had an impact on how a person would understand the last 10 minutes. If the ME team did anything "wrong," they didn't telegraph how differently the game turned out all along based on previous choices. I was able to avert disaster X because of choices I made earlier, while other people weren't able to avoid disaster X, but had option Y. But the storytelling was so seamless, that people didn't realize unless they played through from the beginning with multiple different version of the protag, how much their choices were impacting things. It just seemed like the story. But comparing my story to my friends also playing...we had really different stories...all based on a network of our choices. And one of the things I thought was brilliant about they game is that those three endings? That everyone thought were the same? So many times I saw that the players' reactions and perception of them changed a lot based on how they went through the game. I made the choice to go with the "green" ending. My best friend and I, who have very similar temperaments and when through the game in a similar manner, we though the green ending was the best possible ending and couldn't imagine why given the game we played a person would take the "red" or "blue" ending. Just the other day, I ran into someone who told me they chose the "red" ending...because clearly that was the only good choice...it was the best ending. But I thought the read ending was the worst of all choices. We compared notes from ME1 to ME3...and our playthroughs were so different, I could understand why he felt the red ending was good in his version of the ME3 universe, in mine the green ending was good.

That is when I realized how amazingly they created those sequels to enable player choice to matter. But they just didn't make it clunky and point to it every time. And maybe that was part of their downfall. Maybe people like to be hit over the head with it in a gamist way. But I enjoyed having the choices be subtle and long lasting.

Fable solved the sequel problem by setting the games in different generations. So your choices from the previous games mattered, but you are removed in time from them. Elder Scrolls did the same thing. Dragon Age 2 was another one of my favorite games, the story was amazing! They handled the sequel by having you play a different character in a different part of the world overlapping with the time of the first protagonist...and then hearing about the choices you had made in the first game and the consequences of some of those. I'm really excited for Dragon Age 3 and learn more about the ongoing consequences of my choices from DA1 and DA2 combined. So good!

Oh! Hate Plus, the sequel to Analogue carries on from your ending choices as well.

So I think it definitely can be done, I think it just takes some creative work from the writers and coders.

On a side note I think it is interesting how Cinders solved the problem of having many decision points that effect the game, but them being subtle: whenever one of your previous choices effect what happens in the game, they made a little symbol show up in the top right corner of the screen, so you'd know that you are getting content that has been effected by your choices.

I, for one, am excited that we are getting moments and endings that are more subtly influenced by choices rather than some of the my obvious and sort of clunky things I've often played in the past. At least I like that games that cater to my tastes are also being made in addition to games that cater to other sorts of gamers' choices. Diversity in game philosophy is good, it leads to more diversity in game audience.
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#27 Post by inujuju »

I think at the end of the day, it comes down to how you view the VN you're playing and what the VN is doing with regards to the ending. I'm going to address all four of the named endings with my opinions to try and make my preference clear.

True Ending

trooper6 wrote:If I have only one ending I want, then I'll make that one ending and not give options otherwise..at least not in terms of that ending situation.


Okay so my understanding of what you've said here is basically "If I want it to end this way, then it will", which I feel is a valid point and sums up the vast majority of true endings out there. I personally don't like the idea of a true ending unless the story calls for it. This is only happens in very special cases, like 999 as already mentioned. I believe that the true ending shouldn't really be seen as a canon ending, but more along the lines of putting all the pieces of the story together into that ending. This I feel works very well with mystery stories. You get a piece of the puzzle each time and once you've got all the ones you need you can run off to the true ending.

Of course the problem with this is choosing when the true ending path options should appear. After all, from the start, with no prior knowledge, I could assume that Person X is the murderer (and lets say that he is the murderer), but I might not have the option to accuse them until I stumble upon some evidence in a different route. This would, of course, frustrate me because I had to do additional game play for a choice that I already wanted to make. However it wouldn't be any fun to just have Person X as an option right away with no prior knowledge as that would greatly shorten the experience.

Instead I believe that a true ending should only be used where there's some kind of reason/way for previous paths to be able to be re-accounted for. For instance maybe you're a time traveler or stuck in a time-loop until you solve the ultimate puzzle. Either way a true ending, I feel, has its place in VN's but must be used correctly and in a way that will not insult the player and the other endings. They should never be used in romantic, "pick your girl/boy" type of game as it belittles the other choices, making who is my favorite pairing suddenly not as awesome because they weren't in the true ending.

OokamiKasumi wrote: For the record, I truly Loathe VNs that Lock the "true" ending until you've been forced to replay through each of the other endings.
-- I feel they do this specifically to force the player into wasting their time playing the same game over, and over, and over again, rather than simply, and cleanly, ending it, or extending it legitimately by adding all those missing bits into the actual storyline. Others may adore this sort of game, but I don't --at all-- because this forced replay of the same game feels like cheating to me.

Keep in mind, this is my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.


I can see where you come from with this as, for many games, I don't like having to replay over and over to get the true ending. However as I listed above, I feel like rather than wasting one's time, it could serve as a tool to provide insight into other characters that they might have missed. Though, again, it has to be used wisely and respectively by that creator. I also feel that this is more on the game side of VN rather than the story side so counting on where you want your game to fall, this could be something to avoid or embrace.

False Ending

Now this is something I'm not to sure what you're referring too. It does seem to be the "abrupt" ending that Elmiwisa mentioned but I'm not to sure. If you're able to clarify trooper6 by what you mean by it that would be great!

Going from the abrupt idea, I feel like this would fall more so in the bad end category as I've never experienced an abrupt good end.

I personally feel that abrupt (bad) endings can have their place but, just like true endings, must be used carefully. I've played a game where, out of no where, my character was murderer by another character. Now I understood the motive, my character had wronged the other, in a scene that was a part of the story such that I couldn't avoid it, so I was okay with her attacking me. I wasn't okay with her killing me and ending my path apparently out of the blue. There was no warning and no indication that I was going down this "bad" path, and this was something like eight choices after the event, so it made me quiet angry.

I feel that abrupt endings should only be used right after the choice. Like if you have the option to go down the dark alley where you know bad people lurk, then it is okay for there to be an abrupt "you died" ending. This is because it is clear on why you got that ending. It also helps teach people things about what the creator has created in their world. Where I live, walking around at midnight is totally okay. However in the world that the creator made, maybe this is a very, very bad idea. The creator could hint at it but ultimately leave it in my hands to choose to walk around or not at midnight. By having an abrupt end it allows him to actually show me the consequences of my actions, rather than just having someone tell me that I can't walk around.

Of course, while I do like abrupt endings in some twisted way, I do feel they should be limited and near the beginning of the story. They should be there to teach the player more about the world if they are unable to understand it though earlier clues. They should not be used to up ending counts as they are more a warning than a ending in my book.

It is possible to dance around the abrupt ending though. Say you were going to meet your friend to walk around at midnight and they end up dying because of you making that choice. You will now go down a path with that knowledge and have that affect the whole game.

As such I see abrupt endings as a tool for beginner VN creators to learn how to set up consequences of their actions in the game. Once they get better at story telling they will be able to keep the morality implications of these decisions without having to end their game to drive it home.

Good Ending and Bad Ending

Now I'm doing these two together because they tend to be subjective. To be honest I haven't seen many VN actually come out and say "Bad End" or "Good End". Rather they tend to have some sort of indication of one of these two and then it is the fans of the game who label them as such. In the odd game I have come across that do name them, I can understand them doing so but don't fully support them.

For instance if I'm fighting a dragon and I die, then I would call that a bad end. No matter how awesome and meaningful my death scene is, I would still see it as a bad end. That is not to say it isn't a beautiful, fulfilling, end. I could feel that, despite my character being dead, I really did make a difference and my comrades will continue fighting for me. However I personally would still call it a bad end in the sense that it is not how I felt it should end. On the other hand, I could kill the dragon and suddenly everything is better and I would call it a good end. No matter how horribly short or poorly written I would still call it a good end. That's because to me, a "good end" = me living and a "bad end" = me dying.
EDIT: Or to be more specific a "good end" = me happy and alive while a "bad end" = me unhappy/dead

This has nothing to do if the good end is GOOD and the bad end is BAD in the sense that it is better written, executed, etc. it just deals with how I emotionally feel about it. As such, I agree with the idea that the creator should not label a good vs bad end as it is completely subjective.

That being said there is one tiny yet huge exception to this rule and that is games that have a clear goal. In romance VN, where your goal is to get with the partner of your choice, ending up not with them can be seen as bad. This is taking from the game part rather than the story again in that you have failed your mission and now must restart. That being said though I would still hesitate in giving them true names as, once again, everyone's view on it differs.

So at the end of all of this I feel it's how you decide to view the visual novel you're playing and the ending you achieved. If you feel 100% satisfied with that ending than put that game away and move on to the next. If you're curious about the other paths, check them out.

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PN04
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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#28 Post by PN04 »

I ran across this thread while searching for thoughts about branching storylines and opinions on how many paths people prefer and I felt the need to add my two cent so forgive me if I ramble a bit. It seems like when dealing with multiple endings the only "true ending" should be the one that the player chooses to be true. Should that player ever want to go back you should provide him/her with a high quality and different enough experience that it's worth their time even if you have plans for a sequel, but should you have plans for it you should be prepared for the complications that come with it.

An author can have an ending they prefer, but they can't make that choice obvious, steer a person towards it, or short change another ending just because it's not their preferred one. You have to give the player the chance to feel secure about his/her choices in reaching that point. It doesnt mean you can't start with only one ending in mind I think, but you still have to be diligent in making sure every ending feels like it could have been the one you (the author) felt was true. Should there be a sequel you have to make those choices carry over in a way that doesn't trivialize them or at least makes reference to them in a way that feels satisfying.

In the case of Mass Effect they where great about branching storylines that brought consequences to bare in later titles within the trilogy, but the endings for each game where such that regardless of what you did, certain things had to happen the same way so that it was easier to continue the story in the next game. I think that's what really hurt the ending of the trilogy for some people. For the sake of any potential sequel they would have to have several similar story elements. Certain enemies need to be defeated, political alliances have to be maintained, and you have to have a suitable enough force to even reach the ending, but the ultimate ending basically hinged on 1 of 4 choices and only one of those significantly altered the story in a way that wasn't more than a thematic lens change. One hopeful, one dire, one uncertain, and the 4th being the equivalent of "doing nothing" thus making it the most different. But to the majority of the people playing it they all looked alike, even after the "director's cut" DLC that really did little more than add some exposition to each. People wanted the endings to be VASTLY different, of course there are still elements like which of your crew survived, that effected your personal involvement, but the meat of the endings kinda all felt like a cop out to many people because the actions at the end all had so many similar elements, which I think ultimately was again in the service of a potential sequel, after all how can you start a game with the same emotional resonance if an important element of the story like a whole planet or race was destroyed in one of the endings? You could maybe rebuild that element off camera, but that still makes the difference in the endings moot anyway. So ME4 (assuming it's a sequel and not a prequel) will likely have certain political balance shifts based on your previous situation with a slightly different lens of optimism/pessimism depending on your route at the end of ME3, but things that were broken/destroyed will still be broken/destroyed in every starting point in the next game. It's like saying even if Luke hadn't personally destroyed the Deathstar, someone would've eventually done it so that the Empire would have to build a second one for the next movie.

When you compare that to something like Quantic Dream's Heavy Rain where multiple variables are accounted for at the end it's almost impossible to make a sequel for it that would account for every situation without creating a complex forked starting point that would have to tie every potential starting point into one node to continue the story otherwise you'd have to contend with 5 completely unconnected branching paths as opposed to a single path like the previous game. Heavy Rain comes across as a game that while it has "good" and "bad" ends that can be vastly different, it still maintains the same level of depth for each ending so that should you never play it again (even the creator David Cage felt people should only play it once) which ever ending you got should feel like the true one, and for all anyone knows an ending where everyone dies might have been his personal "true" route.

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#29 Post by KaenSe4 »

Well, I meant my post in terms of "what's left of the story". For example, if you take Steins;Gate, you have the choice to go for the routes of other girls. But you'll choose to do this knowing that there is more of the story left, and you're just branching to a subplot-ish scene. Same with G-Senjou no Maou. With the linear plot, different choices allow you to branch off into plots involving the different girls. However, you know that there is more plot left in the main story line. I'm not saying that it's wrong not to create true endings, but I'm pretty sure, at least with a linear plot, there is an ending that the plot focuses more on than the others. I also find it a little hard to believe that people would think of the protag suddenly dying off, for example
where Tokisaka witnesses the murder of Orihime and dies afterwards in Kara No Shoujo
, to be considered a good end.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that True Ends should exist. I'm just saying that game developers do use them, and they sometimes mean for it to happen.

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Re: Good Endings, Bad Endings, True Endings, False Endings

#30 Post by Destiny »

I honestly think, it depends on the game.
Yeah, it is often totally unfair and even unnecessary.
What, I am supposed to date my childhood friend to get the true ending? Ever thought about the possibility, that I dislike that person, but find that karate kid with the slightly cold attitude totally awesome?
It is simply not fair to decide, that I actually did something wrong. Especially because the definition of wrong is simply a thing of taste here and I am almost personally attacked by that kind of ending name, since I was "stupid" since I didn't like the "right" girl/boy.

But it actually sometimes works quite well.
I plan on a game where you play the story of a storyteller. But that storyteller is old and - despite having told that story a hundred times at least, he might remember wrong (depending on the players choices).
So the game ends and he will be satisfied with it (as he hasn't noticed the changes), only the children comment that they heard the story in a different way from their parents. The storyteller then realizes he had mixed things up and starts the story again, even though not without commenting about how this way of how the story had went can be seen (something like "But it is kind of interesting, that he had lost all his friends, just by lying that one time, isn't it?"), giving a clue about where the choice had been "wrong" and about how that one story experience had turned out.
It of course has a right and wrong in this way, but it is never meant as a punishment for the player having done a bad choice.
The player (like the storyteller) didn't know (anymore) and thus just went with it.
It is of course wrong, because each story is fixed (like snow white, you can't go to someone and tell him/her that snow white died from the apple and her twin sister then stabbed the queen and married one of the dwarfs, everyone knows that this is not how it went), but it might get a interesting insight about how you think the story should have went.


Apart from that, instead of "true", "right" and "wrong", I prefer "canon" and "non-canon".
Fatal Frame II has five endings. One is canon (as seen in Fatal Frame III), the others are not.
But nothing informs you about if you got the canon ending or not. They all just end with the credits (except one where you get a Game Over screen, because it isn't a wrong, but bad ending where NOTHING is solved).
It would be what most of you want, just getting a ending and not getting a "You got Wrong End 2" in the face.
The uproar had still been gigantic from the fans of that series, as they were angry why Ending X had been canon, as this and that happened and it isn't exactly the ending they would have liked to be canon. You can never make everyone happy, even less when you make a series and you actually NEED one of the endings to be true/canon.
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