Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

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fullmontis
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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#16 Post by fullmontis »

Caveat Lector wrote:
fullmontis wrote:Bringing grist to one's mill may serve a purpose in making a point but ignoring other points of view is obfuscating proof a little. Morals are not like math where if one formula is right, the opposite must be wrong: there can be multiple agreeable opinions at the same time, IF the facts are expressed transparently.
I think I should've clarified myself from the start: It’s not a matter of having an opinion that’s just an opinion and therefore can’t definitively be proven as right or wrong, nor is it about a morally grey issue that doesn't have a definite right or wrong answer. It’s mainly to do with prejudice and how to deal with it. I know what the message I'm aiming for is, but it’s important for the reader to understand it, too, and possibly recognize what they see in their own daily lives. I believe that's where the effective communication described by trooper6 needs to come into play.
Ah I see, sorry for misunderstanding.

First thing I would suggest is, don't deal with prejudice directly. Evenyone has the belief that their belief is the right one. This means, getting on the other side from the start will only rise hostility and decapitate any fruitful discussion right off. So, I'd suggest to be more subtle. Anviling may work for those on the fence that need a knock over, but for those on the other side, it will just infuriate them, because it challenges their belief system, and people don't like it. You simply can't change someone's belief without changing how they perceive reality first.

This can sound tricky, but in fact it's not. Story telling is in fact one of the best way to achieve this. One trope that is very common is the "conversion": someone who has some prejudice or belief finds himself in a situation that will change him completely. Think Schindler's List, or American History X.

One thing that is important to mention: eveyone has prejudices because of some root reason. If you don't deal with the root, people won't consider your point of view as valid. This is why extensive research on the subject is vital if you have real intention to change someone's mind about a subject.

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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#17 Post by Caveat Lector »

Sorry, but the approach you're suggesting in the second paragraph would negate everything I'm trying to lay out on the table. In this particular story, dealing with prejudice directly is the right way to do it. I've thought about it, and I've decided the goal (at least for this particular route) is to speak to those who struggle with "friends" who may not entirely accept them but aren't sure what to do. So it might offend those who genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with denying minorities equal rights and don't even see it that way. So what? They're not my audience. J.K. Rowling was writing for fantasy fans who love to curl up with a good epic, not for fundamentalists. Judy Blume was writing for pre-teen girls struggling with puberty and personal identity, not for conservative parents. Yet the latter groups were whom they offended because they found something objectionable about the content.

When you write about a controversial subject, it will inevitably offend some people no matter whom your work is aimed at and no matter what side you choose to take. The important thing is to portray the antagonists as recognizable people and deal with the subject in a manner that feels relevant, without whitewashing or sidestepping the issue or through avoiding directly dealing with prejudice just because some people might be offended.
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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#18 Post by Katy133 »

Caveat Lector wrote: I think I should've clarified myself from the start: It’s not a matter of having an opinion that’s just an opinion and therefore can’t definitively be proven as right or wrong, nor is it about a morally grey issue that doesn't have a definite right or wrong answer. It’s mainly to do with prejudice and how to deal with it. I know what the message I'm aiming for is, but it’s important for the reader to understand it, too, and possibly recognize what they see in their own daily lives. I believe that's where the effective communication described by trooper6 needs to come into play.
A case study you might want to analyse would be the British sci-fi/police series Life on Mars, and its representation of prejudice during the 1970s.

I think what made this series work was the duality between the two main characters, DCI/DI Sam Tyler and DCI Gene Hunt. The main (POV) character, Sam, time-travels to the 70s (he was originally from the year 2006). His partner, Gene, was always from the 1970s. The series shows rather bear-facedly the (now considered non-PC) social climate in 1970s Britain. So throughout the series, Sam is constantly shocked and outraged by Gene's sexist/racist/homophobic attitude. Gene on the other hand, often doesn't even realise his behaviour is prejudice, and dismisses Sam's reprimands.

Throughout the series, Sam has to solve a crime/catch a criminal whilst dealing with the different standards of the time. He often solves problems through his more open-minded attitude (he hires a female police officer because of her deduction skills, he refuses to torture suspects for information, etc.)

You may want to watch the series and ask yourself things like "what worked" and "why did it work." Also think back to bad examples of fiction/works that have prejudice as a theme. Ask yourself why it didn't work and how it could have been improved.
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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#19 Post by czxcjx »

It's all completely in the language and rhetoric. Minimize Jargon and maximize language flow and human analogies. Writing on a theme, for example, about Liberty, is an exercise in saying the same thing as many times as possible without using the word 'Liberty'. Of course there are some people, like Dostoyevsky and Salinger (as opposed to Ayn Rand, although some people may disagree), that just write damn good speeches and can be as preachy as they want because the stuff being said is so powerful and rings inside you. Literally one chapter in the Brother's Karamazov, The Grand Inquisitor, is nothing but a dialogue on God, Politics and Suffering that goes on for 20 to 30 pages, but is pretty much the greatest speech in the history of Literature.
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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#20 Post by RotGtIE »

I am going to put the tl;dr right at the top and say that I completely second Greeny's advice: present the question if you must, but do not provide the answer.

That said, there are quite a few things you've said which jump out at me in a very bad way.
writing about an issue you care about, and feel a lot of fiery passion for,
intended to bring a certain issue to light
a genuine attempt to educate people
and it's a hot button issue for me--to be more specific, there's one aspect of the issue that sets me off and makes me angry, and I want to explain why this attitude is NOT okay
What I want is for people to recognize when this attitude occurs and realize it's not okay.
I know what the message I'm aiming for is, but it’s important for the reader to understand it
I can understand the underlying causes of prejudice and why some people are so easily influenced by it. And yes, it’s true that often, they’re just simply unaware of just how truly awful the issue really is and only know the version their parents brought them up with.
In this particular story, dealing with prejudice directly is the right way to do it.
those who genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with denying minorities equal rights and don't even see it that way
Firstly, I have bolded several of your statements to highlight a prevalent attitude in your words: condescension. You seem to be under the impression that you are particularly enlightened about a subject and that the only reason others don't see it your way is because they are simply ignorant. You are putting yourself on a rather towering pedestal, imagining yourself to be stepping down from on high to educate the sorry unwashed masses, and I can guarantee you that every single reader you reach is going to detect that. Whatever this issue is, you will not do it any justice by carrying an attitude of talking down to people in the way that you are perceiving them in your mind.

Even non-contrarians will have their instinctive defenses activated when they detect that someone is attempting to influence them, even if it's in a direction they are already headed for anyway. This blowback is enough of a challenge in direct, open debate. When you try to weave your message into a story, you take on the additional challenge of appearing to make an indirect attempt to manipulate your audience's opinion, and they will pick up on that the moment you start winding up for it. You are likely to insult your reader by presuming to mentor or teach them, rather than simply entertain or tell a tale.

I can't speak to the issue itself since you want to keep it secret, but I can say that I have no doubt you will fail in influencing your audience if you condescend to them. And if you view your audience as ignorant and yourself as enlightened, I don't see how you will manage to avoid falling into that pit.

Far be it from me to stick to vagaries, I'll provide an example from a project I became very briefly involved in a couple of years ago. The project lead lacked writers for his story, and when I volunteered to write a few scenes for him, I quickly learned why. One of the scenes he wanted written involved the protagonist and his trans love interest; they were to be walking down the street when they were to suddenly become accosted by a group of half-a-dozen homo/trans-phobes, who would spout a few cookie-cutter trans/homo-phobic phrases, then assault the protagonist's love interest. At this point, the protagonist would then soundly defeat the bad, evil -phobes, then stand triumphantly over them to declare that "you just got your ass kicked by a faggot."

Never mind that the characters have no reason to be strolling down the street (there wasn't even an idea of them being on a date or anything, it was just "they're walking down the street, when suddenly..."), never mind that the -phobes could not possibly have been able to tell just from looking that the protagonist and his love interest weren't just a typical hetero couple, never mind the fact that your unarmed and untrained protagonist is meant to overcome six-to-one odds (the love interest was very distinctly a noncombatant) without the advantage of surprise or initiative, and never mind the enormous improbability of this entire event taking place completely uninterrupted in public and in broad daylight (nobody sees or calls the cops or anything?); all that mattered was that the project lead wanted to have an anti-trans/homo-phobic message, and this scene was the way he wanted it done.

How do you think that project lead reacted when I presented the above issues to him? How do you think he reacted when I suggested that the audience might see the whole scene as a heavy-handed attempt to preach to them? And not only that, it was preaching done in the form of Aesop's The Lion and The Statue - an argument solely consisting of the depiction of a strawman being defeated. If your answer was "he called you a bigot and shitcanned you from the project," then you were absolutely correct.

All of this, because he was so excessively passionate about a political topic that he looked down on others and brooked absolutely no cross-examination or analysis of his methods in presenting that topic in a story. The issue was so important to him that he completely forgot that you still have to be attentive to all the things you normally must be attentive to if you want to create a quality story. Apparently the nobility of the message was meant to be enough to carry it.

That project? It's dead in the water, now.

I do not recommend sacrificing a story on the altar of a noble cause. The light of righteous indignation is most blinding to the one who holds it closest to his heart.

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Re: Line Between "Informative" and "Preaching"

#21 Post by Kinjo »

I agree with RotGtIE. Very well-written post!

One thing I do want to suggest is to establish some common ground with the reader early on. People are easier to sway when you share something in common -- they can relate. More specifically, they know you can relate to them, and so they trust you. Insulting the reader by saying "I know better than you, and what you think is wrong, so I'm going to change what you think" is a bad strategy because the reader's just going to respond with hostility and get defensive. Working with each other -- cooperation -- achieves more than working against each other.

For example, if I'm writing a murder mystery story, it's likely that the reader will go in thinking "murder is wrong". I think the same thing. Now both the reader and I are working toward the same goal, to solve a murder (in other words, to right a wrong) and we're in agreement. Along the way, I can shed light on some more specific details about the murder that might get people to question what they already believe. Of course, I'm not going to put in a definitive "answer" but simply ask the questions, and get the reader to think. This way, the reader does all of the convincing themselves.

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