Narrating in a Visual Novel?

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Applegate
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#16 Post by Applegate »

I don't know, I'd say a book that sells well is a book that is written well─if people are attracted to your book and the story in it, then I'd say it's written well. You suspended their disbelief, you made them look past the plot holes, you wrote a story that enraptured your readerbase and that spawned a fandom. You can go all about how it's badly written garbage and should not be taken as an example, but what they have is success, and that's more than you can say of other writers who stick nicely to your rule of "past tense only".
Does this mean you missed where I mentioned poor plotting, poor research, and poor grammar? I assure you, such things are indeed indicators of a book's quality.
Are you cherry-picking your arguments here? You literally said:
Open a fiction book -- any fiction book. Present Tense is only used in Non-Fiction and Dialogue.
You did not say, "Open a fiction book─any good fiction book." You said, "any fiction book", and you are demonstrably wrong. Please do not state things as absolute facts if you cannot handle being refuted. Tempus was obviously referring to your initial statement─ironically, he wrote in past tense, so it should have been easy to understand.
One must stop to restructure the sentences in one's head to comprehend what they meant before one can read the next. This slows reading down considerably and makes it more Work than Pleasure to read.
I do not believe everyone has significant difficulty reading sentences written in present tense. I know I do not.
This is in addition to the fact that writing in Present tense is insanely easy to mess up by accidentally switching to Past and Future tenses in the following lines.
This is a bullocks argument to tell someone to write in past tense instead; just because there's a chance of mindflurbing and mixing up your tenses does not mean that you should not write in that, and there's no real argument to say people don't mix up past and present tenses either.
Essentially, what my argument boiled down to was that editors didn't like it.
But there are editors who disagree. Just because it isn't popular doesn't mean it should never be done. There's plenty of resources on present tense as well, and your opinion should not be stated as fact when it isn't carried by everyone.

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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#17 Post by Caveat Lector »

I wouldn't say a book that sells well is necessarily well-written, but it is a book that contains certain elements that appeal to a broad audience. Those elements can be executed well, or poorly (though I'd argue The Hunger Games is far from being an example of "how not to write a book"--I'd say it's the opposite; maybe I wouldn't use it as THE definitive example of how to write books in general, but it's far from being "garbage"). The point is, they ultimately resonated with the audience they were aimed at. There are quite a few poorly-written books that stick to "convenient" narrative conventions, but that doesn't make them good by default.

I see nothing wrong with writing in present tense as narration--however, just as a personal caveat, I also think it makes more sense if you're also using first-person narration, because then it feels more "on-the-fly", like a current report of events in progress. A first-person story using past tense feels more like an after-action report, though this can work, too. Honestly, though, past or present tense is not really my first notice when reading a novel, it's more like an afterthought. Just because a certain narrative device isn't popular amongst editors doesn't mean it has no value.
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#18 Post by Greeny »

I think it's very dangerous to take too many cues from traditional fiction; the original subject was about Visual Novels after all. You have to look at the medium, and personally, I find you can draw more parallels with the medium of stage plays than with books. And stage plays are almost always in the present tense, so to speak.
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#19 Post by OokamiKasumi »

Applegate wrote:I don't know, I'd say a book that sells well is a book that is written well─if people are attracted to your book and the story in it, then I'd say it's written well. You suspended their disbelief, you made them look past the plot holes, you wrote a story that enraptured your reader base and that spawned a fandom. You can go all about how it's badly written garbage and should not be taken as an example, but what they have is success, and that's more than you can say of other writers who stick nicely to your rule of "past tense only".
Success does not automatically make something well-written. No matter how famous a book gets, its grammar mistakes will remain grammar mistakes. Plot holes will continue to be plot holes. Poor research will still be apparent to those who have experience in those subjects.

For example:
So I read Fifty Shades of Grey. This is the book written by female British author “E. L. James” that became a huge bestseller, devoured by pretty much every woman on Earth except my wife (or so she claims).
-- I think I might be the only man who read this book. I did it sneakily, hiding the cover, especially when I was on an airplane, which actually is a good place to read this book because you have access to a barf bag. I say this because of the writing style, which is . . . OK, here’s one tiny sample of the writing style:

“Did you give him our address?”
“No, but stalking is one of his specialties,” I muse matter-of-factly.
Kate’s brow knits further.


That’s right: This is the kind of a book where, instead of saying things, characters muse them, and they are somehow able to muse them matter-of-factly. And these matter-of-fact musings cause other characters’ brows—which of course were already knitted—to knit still further. The book is over five hundred pages long and the whole thing is written like that. If Jane Austen (another bestselling female British author) came back to life and read this book, she would kill herself.
-- Dave Barry Learns Everything You Need to Know About Being a Husband From Reading 50 Shades of Grey
For another example:
Reading the trilogy, I first wondered whether maybe the author is deliberately trying to adopt the voice of a teenager. But I’m unsure about this hypothesis; the writing errors are both too technical and too numerous to represent any kind of stylistic strategy or symbolic substance. They’re just mistakes. And lots of them: misplaced or dangling modifiers; singular-plural errors; punctuation errors; awkward or simply misspelled words.

Take this sentence, from early in Chapter 1 of the first novel:

My bow is a rarity, crafted by my father along with a few others that I keep well hidden in the woods.

The sentence means to say that Katniss’ bow, made by her dad, is hidden with other weapons, presumably also bows, in the woods. What the sentence actually says, on account of the modifier error, is that her bow is a rarity, and that she keeps her father with “a few others” in the woods. (Who else is Katniss keeping in the woods?)
-- On the error-riddled writing of The Hunger Games
These books are popular in spite of their mistakes -- NOT because of them. If those mistakes hadn't been there, imagine how much better those stories would have been?
Applegate wrote:Are you cherry-picking your arguments here?
Are you showing confirmation bias in yours?
-- My argument is that using Present tense in fiction is a bad idea. That will not change. However, you seem to be hooked on the statement "Open a fiction book -- any fiction book." Whether or not that statement is 100% accurate will not change my position that using Present Tense in Fiction is a Bad Idea.
Applegate wrote:I do not believe everyone has significant difficulty reading sentences written in present tense. I know I do not.
I didn't use the word "everyone," nor "significant." I said:
OokamiKasumi wrote: -- The essential flaw in writing fiction in Present tense is that it can be very confusing to read even when it's done right. One must stop to restructure the sentences in one's head to comprehend what they meant before one can read the next. This slows reading down considerably and makes it more Work than Pleasure to read.
-- Anytime one forces the reader to Work to understand something --especially in a story-- they run the risk of having the reader give up and Stop Reading, as in; close the book to go find something less work and more fun to read. This is in addition to the fact that writing in Present tense is insanely easy to mess up by accidentally switching to Past and Future tenses in the following lines.
-- In short, Past tense is simply easier to read and comprehend than Present tense.
And since you won't believe me, how about this editor?
THE PRESENT TENSE IS VERY STRESSFUL FOR YOUR READER. ... if you haven't bored your reader, you've probably stressed them out. Think of the incredible tension of following every moment's move and thought and emotion--either there's not enough going on, and it's boring, or there is enough going on, and it's totally exhausting for the reader. Actually, this technique can work really well for high-energy thrillers, but if that's not your genre of choice, think about the unwelcome side effects. Frankly, life is exhausting to live--that's why we seek escapism in a nicely written novel--so don't make your book exhausting to read!
-- some very quick thoughts on the present tense
Applegate wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote:...This is in addition to the fact that writing in Present tense is insanely easy to mess up by accidentally switching to Past and Future tenses in the following lines.
This is a bullocks argument to tell someone to write in past tense instead; just because there's a chance of mindflurbing and mixing up your tenses does not mean that you should not write in that, and there's no real argument to say people don't mix up past and present tenses either.
Since you don't want to hear it from me, how about this source?
-- Present tense novels are an editor’s nightmare because no matter how much you think you understand present tense, you don’t. You really don’t. Every single present tense novel I’ve ever edited has had hundreds of mistakes in the tense. If you’re an unpublished, unknown writer, having hundreds of errors makes it a pretty short trip to the rejection pile.
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
Or this source?
IN THE PRESENT TENSE, YOU MUST KNOW AND INCLUDE EVERY TINY DETAIL--there is no room for skipping forward. By placing the narrative in the immediate present, you're investing every moment and every breath with importance. Using past tense allows us to glibly skip forward and cut out of scenes easily once they have been milked for their interest. But in the present tense, you've already chosen the importance of, well, the present, which makes it much more difficult to escape artfully from the many boredoms that pad the interesting parts of our day-to-day life. This means that unless you are very, very skillful indeed, the format of your narrative may force you to include content that bores your audience, either directly or gradually.
-- some very quick thoughts on the present tense
Applegate wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote:Essentially, what my argument boiled down to was that editors didn't like it.
But there are editors who disagree.
If you'd actually read that article, you'd have noticed that this editor does agree with me.
There are many agents and editors who have a written or unwritten policy to never or rarely accept fiction in the present tense (this seems especially common in adult science fiction and fantasy). Aside from maybe second person, it’s one of the most widely hated narrative styles.
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
As does this one:
First off, let me say that present tense is not a reason I categorically reject a novel submission. But it often becomes a contributing reason, because successful present tense novel writing is much, much more difficult to execute than past tense novel writing. Most writers, no matter how good they are, are not quite up to the task.
-- some very quick thoughts on the present tense
Applegate wrote:Just because it isn't popular doesn't mean it should never be done.
I agree. One should try new things and experiment, that's how one learns. However...
If you want to take a risk and go with present tense, it is not a guaranteed failure. But is writing a present tense novel a good way to launch a writing career? Probably not. Does it lower your odds of publication? Almost definitely.
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
Resources on the Internet cannot compete with actual training on how to write in Present tense.
Still going with present tense? I cannot stress enough the importance of getting it in the hands of a competent editor before self publishing or submitting to agents/editors.
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
As for using Present tense in a Visual Novel?
-- Visual Novels tend to be 90% Dialogue, and dialogue IS written in Present tense. However, Narration is a different story. If the narrative writing --the text that isn't direct dialogue-- is longer than a single sentence, I strongly advise Avoiding the use of Present tense if one is writing in English.
Applegate wrote:...your opinion should not be stated as fact when it isn't carried by everyone.
When you've published as many books as I have, I'll take your opinion into consideration, but until then... ♥
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#20 Post by Applegate »

OokamiKasumi wrote:
Applegate wrote:...your opinion should not be stated as fact when it isn't carried by everyone.
When you've published as many books as I have, I'll take your opinion into consideration, but until then... ♥
So when you can't win, you try to pull the better-than-thou card─because of course, you're the only author on these forums. What was your argument just now, though? "Just because a book is published doesn't mean it's good"? So really, the number of books you publish doesn't matter, there's no evidence that what you write is actually good. You yourself indicated that success with publishing doesn't equal being a demonstrably good writer, and thus your opinion is no better than mine. ;)

This is a challenging of your statement to the topic creator that good fiction demands you write in present tense. The sources I linked demonstrably say that that is untrue; cherry-picking parts of the woman's argument and ignoring where she continues on to say that it can be done and that when done well it is very good doesn't make it any less true that there are editors (and readers) who believe good fiction can be written in present tense.

In closing, the argument that "any fiction book is written in past tense" is untrue, and the argument that "[all] editors hate present tense" is untrue (though I grant that some may hate it). Therefore, anyone should feel free to write in the present tense, even for narration in their story.

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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#21 Post by OokamiKasumi »

Applegate wrote:So when you can't win, you try to pull the better-than-thou card─because of course, you're the only author on these forums.
Actually, I'm not the only published author on this forum.
Applegate wrote:What was your argument just now, though? "Just because a book is published doesn't mean it's good"?
Correct.
Applegate wrote:So really, the number of books you publish doesn't matter...
The number of books an author has published stands for the years of experience they've put into learning the craft of writing. Just to put things in perspective, I was first published in 1980; a short story that had to be written on a typewriter because the PC hadn't been invented yet. A single error meant retyping an entire chapter. Back then research meant going out and experiencing it yourself plus spending a lot of time in libraries. I learned to write from actual books and magazines specifically for writing. (Did you know that Writer's Digest has been putting out their magazine, and their how-to books since the turn of the century?) I also learned from experienced authors I actually know personally, as in; I spent time in their living rooms talking about how to write fiction, and from every correction made by my editors. How many years have you put into learning the craft of writing fiction?
Applegate wrote:...there's no evidence that what you write is actually good.
The only people who need proof of whether I'm actually good or not are my editors, and I am very lucky in that they take their job very seriously. They know exactly what my readers want and their job is to make sure I provide it. They would never allow a manuscript past their desks with such errors in grammar, characterization, plotting, or research as found in those books. Nor will they take manuscripts written in Present tense, or one that has head-hopping.
Applegate wrote:You yourself indicated that success with publishing doesn't equal being a demonstrably good writer...
Correct. However success is not the same thing as experience, though I am successful enough that writing fiction pays my bills. (I quit the day job in 1998.)
Applegate wrote:...and thus your opinion is no better than mine. ;)
Are you saying that you have the same amount of experience that I have in writing fiction? I think not. ♥
Applegate wrote:This is a challenging of your statement to the topic creator that good fiction demands you write in present Past tense. The sources I linked demonstrably say that that is untrue; cherry-picking parts of the woman's argument and ignoring where she continues on to say that it can be done and that when done well it is very good doesn't make it any less true that there are editors (and readers) who believe good fiction can be written in present tense.
Actually your sources said this:
The problem with present tense is that it’s great when it’s great, and when it’s not….*shudder* it’s horrible!
-- ...for young adult and middle grade readers, present tense is far more common and acceptable. It’s possible that writing in present tense may even be advantageous in these genres...
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
Some writers are able to write fiction entirely in the present tense (something that requires a great deal of skill and practice), but there is nothing amateur about choosing to write in the past tense—the most common and widely accepted tense for fiction.
-- Present or Past Verb Tense: What to Choose For Your Fiction Writing
There are indeed editors who believe that fiction can be written in Present tense, but they are few and far between, and of them they insist that it takes an experienced writer to do it, in addition to a good editor to clean up the mistakes that will happen.
Before you write this kind of book, get several published books under your credit belt.
-- Ask the Editors: Third Person/Present Tense
Applegate wrote:In closing, the argument that "any fiction book is written in past tense" is untrue...
Still beating that dead horse?
Applegate wrote:...and the argument that "editors hate present tense" is untrue (though I grant that some may hate it).
More than 'some' hate present tense.
Aside from maybe second person, it’s one of the most widely hated narrative styles.
-- Writing in Present Tense Might be a Bad Idea
An unpublished writer sending this to an agent or editor probably won’t get far.
-- Ask the Editors: Third Person/Present Tense
Be prepared to change from present tense to past in order to see your manuscript accepted by a publisher.
-- Narrative Tense—Right Now or Way Back Then
Applegate wrote:Therefore, anyone should feel free to write in the present tense, even for narration in their story.
Allow me to repeat myself:
-- One should create a VN the way you want to, using any form of free-writing and creative grammar that you please. However, once you try taking such a story to a publisher, all bets are off.
Last edited by OokamiKasumi on Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#22 Post by Taleweaver »

Guys, this thread is derailing quickly. Keep it civil. Making light of other people's abilities isn't what I'd call civility, and neither is twisting other people's words into meanings you can pick apart afterwards. If this isn't going anywhere productive soon, I'm locking this thread.
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#23 Post by Greeny »

Come to think of it, the original question was about what should be narrated, not how.

On that subject, I think it's best not to describe the environment or the characters too much, since they're visible on screen. On the other hand, it would be fine to describe something that stands out, even if it's visible; things the protagonist might mentally comment on.
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Re: Narrating in a Visual Novel?

#24 Post by Caveat Lector »

Perhaps you could describe, or place emphasis on, what the character smells, feels, or tastes? Make use of the other senses in addition to sight and sound?
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