What Breaks Your Immersion?

[Tyrantauranox]

Major time gaps really throw me off. A story that flows day-by-day, then suddenly jumps ahead a year or two, for example. Shifting between first-person and third-person perspective is a major offender, too- even more so than changing perspective to different characters.

[Hijiri]

-Dialogue choices outside the dialogue box.
^ This is a personal preference. I find having to go from reading at the bottom of the screen to the middle just to make a decision very disorientating and immersion-breaking. It's probably the biggest issue I have with games made in Ren'Py. I want my decisions where my dialogue is instead of having to waste time getting comfortable reading on different areas of the screen between choices. Most videogames follow this format; I don't get why so many VNs choose not to.

That's an engine issue. Most VN engines generate the choices above the art resources but behind the interface, so often the only way to change that is by tinkering with the engine itself, something not too many people are fond of doing.

Oh, but to stay on topic, the things that really break my immersion are games that continue to shove their message in my face, and that's even when I agree with it. I'm just someone who prefers subtlety over getting treated like a grade schooler who can't pick up things.

On a personal note, if I see the terms 'queer' or 'POC' I'll immediately stop reading. This includes the descriptions even before I download the game. Sven as someone who falls under those "descriptors", it rubs me the wrong way since both terms simply lump everyone together without regards to the individual.

[trooper6]

On a personal note, if I see the terms 'queer' or 'POC' I'll immediately stop reading. This includes the descriptions even before I download the game. Sven as someone who falls under those "descriptors", it rubs me the wrong way since both terms simply lump everyone together without regards to the individual.

I think knowing these things about a creator are important. At least for me. I can't easily immerse myself in a game if I know the creator holds viewpoints I find distressing. Now that I know that you completely dismiss the terms queer and POC means I will no longer be able to immerse myself in your works, because this comment of yours will always be in the back of my mind.

So, another thing that can break my immersion? Politics of the creator that I find distressing. I can't immerse myself in the works of Orson Scott Card anymore now that I know about his homophobia, I can't immerse myself in Wagner's works knowing about his anti-semitism, and I can't immerse myself in Hijiri's works knowing he dismisses the identities of those who claim the label queer and/or POC.

Note: this doesn't mean that Hijiri, or anyone, can't hold whatever viewpoint they want. I stand by anyone's right to hold whatever viewpoint and to make whatever games they want. I just can't immerse myself in a game, or support a creator, whose viewpoints I find problematic. Which is also my right.

[Caveat Lector]

@trooper6

I have a slightly different view: For me, yes, the author's views on certain topics can be a major joykiller. However, whether or not I choose to continue to buy anything by that author regardless of their, ahem, "views" depends on where the proceeds for their works are going to go. I don't believe in downplaying or handwaving or, worst of all, justifying H.P. Lovecraft's racism, but I can still buy and enjoy his works with a guilt-free conscience because (as far as I know) the proceeds of his works do not fund the KKK or any hate organizations (that being said, his racist views DO bleed over into the text of his stories quite a bit). However, I cannot buy Orson Scott Card's books because the money from those books ends up in his pocket--and in turn, he funds several anti-gay organizations with his own money.

Of course, if the author's works are free, that's a slightly different matter. In the end, the only thing that really hurts the person whose works I choose not to download is how much exposure they get. And, well...I kind of have to share trooper6's views in that regard. I've been put off by a lot of things some users have said about certain issues that really rubbed me the wrong way, and as a result, I can't bring myself to support their projects or releases no matter how nice they might look. There are others who can probably separate the creator from the creation far better than I can, and while that task can be hard but manageable for me at times, there are other instances where I just cannot do it.

As for other things...

Something that breaks my immersion is if there's just one major character or real life inconsistency. With the former, it's if a character suddenly acts the complete opposite of the way they were earlier with no development or foreshadowing built up to it. With the latter, I'm willing to accept that a work doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be good, but it doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to be plausible. The idea that there could be a spare parachute hidden on an abandoned airplane is plausible. The idea that you could fall from over 20 feet into a body of water and still come out alive with your face and bones intact might strain it but okay, maybe the landing wasn't shown and maybe the person knew how to land just right, fair enough. But the idea that someone has multiple personalities who magically and physically manifest themselves into a different person and absolutely nobody realizes they're all the same person...yeah, suspension of disbelief broken. Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde at least pulls this off somewhat plausibly (it also depends on how well the adaptation pulls it off, too).

That being said though, getting too hung up on just one detail in a story can also result in completely missing the point of the story. So what if the weather or sun isn't in the right condition to create a beautiful sunset? So what if the date for the next full moon is off by a few nights? It still makes for wonderful symbolic imagery. Or, to use a VN-specific problem, I don't really focus on the "limited wardrobe" trope--I completely understand why, since art tends to cost money.

But another VN-specific problem: When sprites and backgrounds from the CC forums have entirely different styles to the point of clashing. If it's used on purpose for comedy, that's one thing, but otherwise it kind of breaks my immersion. Not as much as the other problems I mentioned, but just a bit.

[SinSisters]

I don't want to be rude or get into the middle of things, I just thought that I should mention that I'm pretty sure Hijiri means something along the lines of "John Doe is pansexual and black" vs "John Doe is a queer POC." Queer and POC are both very broad terms. All you would know about that character is that they aren't white (or is it Caucasian in general??) or heterosexual. Big whoop.

On that note, your second statement is a good example of why any of DC Scott's work disgusts me.

-Nat

[Hijiri]

I don't want to be rude or get into the middle of things, I just thought that I should mention that I'm pretty sure Hijiri means something along the lines of "John Doe is pansexual and black" vs "John Doe is a queer POC." Queer and POC are both very broad terms. All you would know about that character is that they aren't white (or is it Caucasian in general??) or heterosexual. Big whoop.

On that note, your second statement is a good example of why any of DC Scott's work disgusts me.

-Nat

Yes, thank you for getting it. If Character A is an gay Latino, tell me so. If Character B is a bisexual Asian, just say that. Don't just throw a blanket statement on them.
I do have personal hangups about the terms, but when talking about writing, that's what I meant.

[trooper6]

Yes, thank you for getting it. If Character A is an gay Latino, tell me so. If Character B is a bisexual Asian, just say that. Don't just throw a blanket statement on them.
I do have personal hangups about the terms, but when talking about writing, that's what I meant.

The problem is that queer and POC are also identity labels. There are people whose sexuality or racial make-up is complicated and don't easily fit into gay, straight, bi; black, white, yellow, red, brown. By dismissing the labels, you are also dismissing the identities of those people for whom those labels are the ones that best describe how they self identify.

[Rossfellow]

[Woops sent it as a PM by mistake but it should be here. I feel I should share this else it'd gnaw at my mind.]

The problem is that queer and POC are also identity labels. There are people whose sexuality or racial make-up is complicated and don't easily fit into gay, straight, bi; black, white, yellow, red, brown. By dismissing the labels, you are also dismissing the identities of those people for whom those labels are the ones that best describe how they self identify.

1.) The POC part as an identity label is... Kind of disturbing, IMO. As said above, all it means is "Not White", but you're implying that they should be used for people who are undecided about their identity. I don't think so. Undecided is undecided, like black is black and white is white.

Imagine this scenario. You are half-Chinese, half-Filipino, and the ongoing tension between the two countries could result in a war. This conflict is tearing away at your identity. You are close to people on both sides who are nationalistic- And ultimately they ask you what your ethnic identity is, and whose side you are on.

This is probably the most compelling reason you can have for not having an ethnic identity, and even in this you can only be one of three things. "Chinese", "Filipino", or "Undecided". If you decide to tell them "I'm POC" which basically boils down to "As long as I'm not White", they'll look at you confused or worse, offended. The concept of ethnicity/racial identity isn't so simple that you can round it up with a single acronym.

Basically, if you don't know who you are or what you want to be, then just be undecided. "I'm a minority" really isn't something that would sit well with anyone.

2.) Queer as a term is pretty weird... I feel there's this derogatory tone to its usage. It's like being black but choosing to identify as the N word. "I'm queer" and "I don't know yet..." carry such different implications even if they're supposed to mean the same thing.

_____________________________________________

Now back on topic. I agree with a whole lot of folks so I wont have to repeat their points. I'll just add some of my own.

Lack of Hook
-"Starting too Slow", if it takes more than three chapters/episodes to open up that conceptual Pandora's Box that would grab my attention and/or interest, I might just burn out on the work and give up on it. I almost dropped Madoka Magica because of this- sure glad I stayed.

Skewered Expectation
-This is different from "It didnt happen the way I want", more like "Everything that has happened so far has been to promote this one moment. What will you do, heroine? Let's see it play out- OH GOD BABY MAGIC SOLVED EVERYTHING."

Sidetracking
-Every Shounen action adventure ever. The hero eventually has to undergo a re-evaluation of self at some point, the answer to which will gain him resolve/ a new power. This newfound resolve/power will help him overcome his own weakness and his main adversity. I get that. You don't need to repeat this process seven or nine times just to prolong the shelf life of the story. It gets tiring and the story gets dried out eventually.

Just as Planned as Planned as Planned
-HA! I tricked you! Oh no, it was actually you tricking me? HA! I tricked you into thinking you tricked me!! Self explanatory. This is a very difficult thing to pull off convincingly. If you botch it, you just lost yourself a couple of really frustrated readers.

Extreme or Pretentious Verbosity
-Unless it's part of a character or an intentional play on narrative, nobody really needs to read through long long words to show off your skill with a thesaurus. This is a problem I have with H.P. Lovecraft's work, but that one is a case of 1930s sensibility that had simply phased out over time, and now it's difficult for me to read. Modern writers shouldn't have such problems.

[noeinan]

I think that personal identities should be respected, even if we don't like those words. One of the most disrespectful things you can do to a person is deny their identity, and who they are, thus basically communicating that you either A) think you know them better than they know themselves or B) are just purposefully disrespecting them. (For example, misgendering trans people.)

That said, I think this is kinda getting off topic.

Back to immersion... I also would be morally conflicted supporting a work whose author actively campaigns to hurt people. (Such as funding anti-gay political campaigns.) If I found out one of my favorite creators was doing that, I would feel pretty betrayed and wouldn't be able to enjoy their works anymore.

That said, I have some wiggle room for the time period they grew up in. For example, Anne McCaffery has said some pretty odd things about gay people (like that straight men will be turned gay if they engage in certain activities-- being vague because this is not the adult forums.) While that is pretty ignorant, and scientifically inaccurate, she does make a place for gay characters in her stories. (Such as the Weyrs being a safehaven for gay and bi folks, due to them being more open about it.) On the other hand, some of the themes around dragon mating flights are kinda... rapey.

Overall, I can accept that I sometimes like works that have problematic elements-- I just don't excuse those elements or defend them. I like parts, and will say that, and then I will also say "this is where it could have done better." I think that most people out there are not going to be perfectly compassionate towards various groups, but I'm more willing to give leeway to ignorance (taking into account historical context) than malice.

Those things still break my immersion though-- it's just that I'm more forgiving of some immersion breaking in an otherwise exceptional work. It will surprise me, and I'll make a note of it, but I'll keep playing and see what I think at the end.

[Shinoki]

Immersion problems...

Well, one is when writers don't have a clue about Japan and mess it up. Seeing as anime and whatnot and my own mind have a somewhat odd portrayal of Japan, I can't blame people for doing weird things that are not accurate, but when it comes to stories where I completely feel that they're using the wrong setting, well, I just can't read on. Like, don't make it a ghetto American feel for a classic rich-people Kyoto, Japan type area (not that I've ever seen anything that extreme).

Really, while I do enjoy the typical Japan setting, if you're going to do it, make it plausible to at least the sad people who only really see it from Chinese dramas hating on them and the world of strange anime and J-dramas.


Unnecessary clutter. Whenever I see a character, a minor character that is completely useless and only makes an appearance in a puny bit of the story, I just get so irritated. I've found that I actually like minor characters a lot of the time (they touch my heartstrings more than the main characters sometimes) but in one game I read, there was just this one random character that suddenly popped out of nowhere, didn't have a part in any of the 3 other routes, and was just there...that kind of just ruined it especially since the team spent the money/time to make a sprite for her.

[noeinan]

...Well, one is when writers don't have a clue about Japan and mess it up...

This. I also studied Japanese for seven years and it really annoys me when games use incorrect Japanese. Saying one word means X when it doesn't, or if there is voice acting, pronouncing Japanese words incorrectly. This really, really frustrates me in some dubs.