The Given Name / Surname Debate

[verysunshine]

After reading this thread on honourifics, I've been rethinking how I refer to my characters in my story. I used to use honourifics and surnames to refer to my characters. They are Japanese and are in Japan, so I thought it made sense. For example, "Iroki Yumeka" would be referred to as "Iroki-san". I decided to remove the honourifics because they were tough to explain and would probably alienate players, even if I include a glossary.

However, this left me with a problem. I eventually wanted to use a shift from the formal "Iroki-san" to the more casual "Yumeka-chan" to hi-light growing relationships. The surnames on their own look strange. The only times I've seen surnames used alone are in a few stories set in British boarding schools. If I use given names the whole time, I feel like I lose the ability to hi-light the relationship change. It makes me wish English had something similar to the "tu/vous" system in French, where "vous" can be used formal relationships.

Should I change the surnames to given names? What other ways could I use the mechanics of the English language to signify a relationship change?

[Rossfellow]

Honorifics are applicable in the english language where there is a hierarchy that requires formality. You can just let teenagers refer to each other in first names, like how english speaking people do it. But when they speak to a senior figure, honorifics are a good way to denote this relationship.

Persona 3 and 4 have done this quite nicely. They add honorifics whenever they want the character giving respect towards another character. (Akihiko-senpai, Dojima-san, etc.) but they sometimes use regular english honorifics (Miss Toriumi, Mr. Ekoda, etc) where its applicable.

I guess in the end you can just go with what rolls off the tongue better.

[PaupauSenpai]

I don't see a problem with honorifics if your characters are actually Japanese in Japan. ^^ That is the normal thing Japanese people say. And I'm sure most people who are playing a game set in Japan understand the cultural differences, if not the actual honorifics themselves, and will totally accept it. But hey, whatever you're comfortable with.

Other than honorifics, what I can think of is nicknames. When you're being formal you typically say someone's full first name (Elizabeth) but when you're closer to them you can shorten it (Eliza, Liz) and even change it up to make it a cute pet name or nickname (Lizzy).

You can go with Miss Iroki at first if you want to emphasize super formality, but just Yumeka (pretty name! >w<) would do at first I suppose. And then maybe the character can eventually start calling her just Yume? That'd be a cool nickname in my opinion lol 8D

[RotGtIE]

I am of two opinions on this matter.

In the first place, I love localization efforts that go above and beyond. The Lunar series of games is a particular favorite of mine due to the enormous amount of effort that went into not merely translating but also magnificently localizing the entire script to be appealing to a western, English-speaking audience when they ported the games overseas from Japan. The localization team went so far as to completely change the meaning of dialogue through their rewrites if there just was no way to preserve the original Japanese script. The songs were completely rewritten as well. This kind of effort is no joke and I appreciate it more than I can express in words.

To that end, I do not think that native English speakers who have too limited a knowledge of Japanese culture and language should attempt to write their story set in Japan, with Japanese characters presumably speaking in Japanese, written in an English script. Writing too far outside your area of expertise is bound to lead to technical errors and cultural mistakes which will leave you with egg on your face as a writer.

On the other hand, I do not begrudge VN localization teams who keep honorifics and Japanese cultural idioms intact in their translations. I understand that some things simply will not translate properly no matter what you do, unless your audience already understands the content. Japanese VNs have Japanese voice actors, and I can tell when the translation team is trying to use "mister" in place of -san, -kun, or any other honorific which has a much more specific meaning and can't just be swapped out for one of the English language's whole four honorifics. We just don't use a ton of honorifics like the Japanese do. We call people by their first names a lot faster, too, and without any honorifics. That kind of thing is a huge deal over there. How would you localize a female character blushing deeply after calling her boyfriend by his given name with no honorific? We're frequently on a first name basis with our acquaintances; the thought of being embarrassed to call a lover by their given name would be mystifying in western culture.

So if you're writing a story for weeaboos by a weeaboo, then by all means, set it in anime-land and hit 'em over the head with all the otaku in-jokes and tropes you can muster. Don't water down your story just to widen the audience appeal if that's not what you really want to do anyway. You think someone who isn't already into weeaboo stuff is gonna pick up an OELVN just because it's more localized for westerners? I find that idea doubtful. In the meantime, you'll only be treating your otaku audience poorly by dumbing down or omitting things they already understand extremely well.

In short, just don't float halfway between one realm or the other. If you want to go for mass appeal among a western audience that isn't familiar with Japan or otaku culture, then go all the way and move the setting closer to home. If you want to use tropes that are unique to Japan or weeb stuff, then by all means go balls to the wall with it.

If you're concerned about helping out the uninitiated, you can always pull a Da Capo 2 and have translator notes that only appear when players specifically click on highlighted text which produces a window containing said translation notes apart from the main dialogue box. That should help to avoid annoying veteran NEETs while still allowing increased accessibility to people who are interested but not quite educated enough to get some of the things which are being said.

[verysunshine]

Honorifics are applicable in the english language where there is a hierarchy that requires formality. You can just let teenagers refer to each other in first names, like how english speaking people do it. But when they speak to a senior figure, honorifics are a good way to denote this relationship.

Persona 3 and 4 have done this quite nicely. They add honorifics whenever they want the character giving respect towards another character. (Akihiko-senpai, Dojima-san, etc.) but they sometimes use regular english honorifics (Miss Toriumi, Mr. Ekoda, etc) where its applicable.

I guess in the end you can just go with what rolls off the tongue better.

The Persona series was mentioned in the other thread too. I guess it's required playing for seeing how honourifics can work.

I don't see a problem with honorifics if your characters are actually Japanese in Japan. ^^ That is the normal thing Japanese people say. And I'm sure most people who are playing a game set in Japan understand the cultural differences, if not the actual honorifics themselves, and will totally accept it. But hey, whatever you're comfortable with.

Other than honorifics, what I can think of is nicknames. When you're being formal you typically say someone's full first name (Elizabeth) but when you're closer to them you can shorten it (Eliza, Liz) and even change it up to make it a cute pet name or nickname (Lizzy).

You can go with Miss Iroki at first if you want to emphasize super formality, but just Yumeka (pretty name! >w<) would do at first I suppose. And then maybe the character can eventually start calling her just Yume? That'd be a cool nickname in my opinion lol 8D

I'm a bit hesitant to use nicknames. I don't think I understand enough about how they are derived in the Japanese language. I don't want to get something wrong.

In short, just don't float halfway between one realm or the other. If you want to go for mass appeal among a western audience that isn't familiar with Japan or otaku culture, then go all the way and move the setting closer to home. If you want to use tropes that are unique to Japan or weeb stuff, then by all means go balls to the wall with it.

If you're concerned about helping out the uninitiated, you can always pull a Da Capo 2 and have translator notes that only appear when players specifically click on highlighted text which produces a window containing said translation notes apart from the main dialogue box. That should help to avoid annoying veteran NEETs while still allowing increased accessibility to people who are interested but not quite educated enough to get some of the things which are being said.

I won't be using weeb stuff, but I might use a few culture-spesific things. I'm also going to be including a glossary in the game.

So, I guess I'll be following the Persona model.