Not True.fullmontis wrote:Plot is overrated. Readers are going to forgive you for a simple story if the character and setting makes up for it.
Two things: first, you're conflating "simple" with "poorly written." Second, do such readers actually exist? I'm inclined to doubt it. Maybe they're being polite about their opinions in public, but I can't help but wonder if they're not secretly disappointed. I know I've been absolutely crushed to see great characters wasted on a garbage plot, and vice versa.fullmontis wrote:Readers are going to forgive you for a simple story if the character and setting makes up for it. Maybe your story won't have the same kick to it, but readers will enjoy it nonetheless.
I was speaking from the context of the OP who admitted that he/she has little experience in writing but has the premise for a game. I advised against going for a twist ending unless she has already laid down enough that it can arise from what she wrote. From experience, I found that this helped beginners better than having them aim for twists from the outset. You said it yourself, it needs a lot of planning and tight construction on the part of the writer. A lot on the plate for someone just starting out.OokamiKasumi wrote:Ahem... I've got news for you, speaking from professional experience, if you plan to have a twist in a story --especially if it's near the end-- you ARE supposed to write the story specifically 'for the sake of the twist.' In fact, that's precisely how Mysteries, Horror, and Comedy stories are written.Lexer wrote:Do not aim for a twist ending... Otherwise you risk writing the story for the sake of the twist and it can come off as trite and annoying.
A more familiar name for this is "The Punchline."Edgar Allen Poe wrote: "To deliver fullest satisfaction, a story should be...conceived with deliberate care toward a single effect. A skillful literary artist has a constructed tale. If wise, he has not fashioned his thoughts to accommodate his incidents; but having conceived, with deliberate care, a certain unique or single effect to be wrought out, he then invents such incidents- he then combines such events as may best aid him in establishing this preconceived effect. If his very initial sentence tends not to the out-bringing of this effect, then he has failed in his first step.”
-- Edgar Allen Poe
-- You can't have a punchline if the story isn't a set up to deliver one.
You start by coming up with a Twist, an Ironic moment, a Murderer, or a Monster then design the entire story to conceal, disguise, and mislead people from discovering said Twist, Irony, Murderer, or Monster until the great reveal near the end.
The only time it comes off as trite or annoying is when 1) there isn't enough Story to support the weight (gravity?) of the punchline, and/or 2) the writer plants too many 'clues' and gave away the punchline before the reader gets there. In other words, the writer was SLOPPY about it (or simply inexperienced.)
I disagree.OokamiKasumi wrote: I definitely won't forgive pretty characters and fancy settings if the story is Crap.
Also, what's the point of making great characters if they don't have a Story (Plot) strong enough to show off how great they are? (In case you haven't caught on, I'm a die-hard plotter.)
Godline wrote: . . . There are two types of stories. Character-driven or plot-driven. Character-driven ones shine regardless of a re-hashed plot because the characters are just so good. I personally prefer character-driven to plot-driven but that's just how I work.
Character-driven stories do indeed have plots! The focus of the plot --what changes in the story-- is on an Individual rather than the world around them.trooper6 wrote:Character-Driven stories still have plots, they are just in a different scope/style. A lot of television is character driven...but even in the most episodic show that has no season arc, each episode still has a plot.
This is an absolutely brilliant piece of advice. I am going to copy/paste it and keep it in my notes.Ernestalice15 wrote: . . . Before you decide how the story would end, I suggest you to ask yourself, how much time and effort do you want to use for this project. If you have no problem with this, then I can suggest you some things :
- 1. Read as many stories, or watch as many movies as you can.
2. Try to be the characters as you create them. If you want to build a mystery like murder case, arrange the real chronology from the murderer first, then set the clues.
3. Don't forget the characters' identity and development, just for the sake of plot twist. Uninteresting characters can lead people to leave your story before they can get to the first clue.
4. Write the setting of all important characters or you will forget their role in the writing process. You don't want that to happen. You have to decide the ending for each character before you write the whole scenario.
Just let me say, I adore you.trooper6 wrote: . . . So, let's take the word "cliché" and instead use the word "formula."
There is a lot of formulaic music. Tin Pan Alley, with some of our greatest songwriters, worked on formula. The much-beloved sonatas, are all built on the same formula. 12 Bar Blues songs, all the same formula. All of the pop songs that use the same I-IV-V-I chord progression.
But people love the blues. And they will listen to the blues and get something interesting and new about it. And the best blues artist do really interesting things within the formula.
In terms of books, because I spend most of my time reading (and writing) dense academic texts I have gotten into reading pulp crime novels for my off time pleasure. Many of these from the 1950s and 1060s. And are they on a formula? Oh yes they are. Just like other pulp genres...the Romance Novel and the Western. But people love those books, and I love my crime novels.
In terms of TV, some of the most popular shows right now are police procedurals and they are all really, really formulaic. And people love those shows.
I enjoy things are haves twists and that break formula...quite a lot actually. But I still watch/read/listen to things that have set formulas. When I'm listening to the amazing beauty of a Carol Kink Brill Building song or one of the formulaic masterpieces of a Holland-Dozier-Holland Motown song...that takes my breath away.
All of Shakespeare's sonnets use the exact same structure...no twist ending there.
So...in the end, it isn't about formula or not formula, it is about doing what you do with intention and doing it well.
A poorly written story with a plot twist is still a poorly written story.
I adore you, too--for the record!OokamiKasumi wrote: Just let me say, I adore you.
-- This is brilliant, and it's Right. I write a broad spectrum of pulp fiction; fantasy, gothics, scifi and romance (all of them adult,) and yes, they all have pretty set Formulas. What many may not know is that if you violate the formula too much --bend it too far from the original style-- the fans of these genres will cry outrage. These formulas exist because of Popular Demand. People look for these formulaic stories and songs. Theywant their stories (and music) to follow these set patterns.
What makes them individually unique is not how they break the formula or pattern, but how creative the artist was WITHIN the formula. It's not what (formula) you have that matters, but what you do with (the formula) that makes it interesting and unique.
I was there on the ground floor when the genre Erotic Romance was first created and codified. It was a breath-taking experience.trooper6 wrote:And something else I think is interesting. When people do "break the formula," if they are successful, what often happens is that what they did often is just given a new genre title, and the new genre ends up coalescing around a new set of formula that are then often just as rigidly upheld by those new fans as the old ones were.
*nod-nod* If you don't listen well enough to know what your audience wants to 'experience,' how can you give it to them?trooper6 wrote:I think it is important to remember that art...assuming you want other people to interact with your art...is an act of communication. . . . If you have no respect for your audience, their experiences, and expectations...if you don't even know what they are...if you don't listen to them, then it is hard, I think, to create a successful communicative work of art. Part of the listening process is consuming the media in the genre that you want to work in and getting to understand the norms of that genre, the expectations.
Absolutely brilliant. Definitely adding this to my notes.trooper6 wrote: . . . plot twists and interesting endings often follow a "plot twist formula" for that particular genre.
Let us take a set up: A man and woman meet on the beach at a summer resort and fall in love.
What is the plot twist? Depends on the genre.
A hardboiled crime novel? The plot twist is that one of them is playing the other in order to use them in some sort of scam, and both of them are horrible people.
In a tragic romance? One has cancer.
In sci-fi? One is a robot.
In horror? One is a serial killer/stalker.
In a soap opera? One of them has amnesia and has forgotten that they are married to the other's nemesis!
..and so on.
If you picked up hardboiled crime story and the plot twist is that one of the people is a robot...many of your fans are going to be really irritated. That will be a twist that twists too hard and breaks things. Now, sci-fi and noir have been successfully mixed...but the reader knows it from the beginning.
Agreed, and well said.trooper6 wrote:So...know your audience, know your genre expectations, and know how to play within that genre and how to push at the genre's boundaries in a way that will still make your work legible to your audience if that is what you are going to. But just push at boundaries just to do so with no real reason why often just falls flat.
Wow, definitely going to note this one. I'm just thinking to make Otome, but I want to try breaking some formula I've found in most Otome (which is the lack of personality in main character, I found that most of them are Mary Sue, and when they are seduced a bit by the male characters they usually fall in very easily). However, the public seem not to dislike it as much as I do, because the game itself offers many good-looking male characters that throw sweet words at you that can make you giggling, also these male characters are usually not as bad as the protagonist in my opinion. In fact, I like that aspect, too.OokamiKasumi wrote:When you call something an otome (romance) game, the players have certain Expectations.
More than one character to pursue romantically.
One on One scenarios to get to know each romantic pursuit.
Each romantic interest has their own personal problem to solve.
An overall plot problem that can only be solved by partnering with one of the romantic pursuits. (Often a formal party situation.)
If you don't fulfill at least the barest form of an otome's formula, the players that downloaded your game with the expectation of playing an otome will become frustrated with the game, and some will even feel cheated.
The heroine is kept bland and devoid of strong characteristics because she is not meant to be a person - she is a symbol of the romance the audience themselves is investing in. The heroine in those games does not matter, you could swap her with other heroine symbols and there will be no difference. They are giggly, shy, reserved, undeniably feminine and such on the other hand to fulfil traditional gender roles so even if they have a two dimensional personality, you see them as a female.Ernestalice15 wrote:Wow, definitely going to note this one. I'm just thinking to make Otome, but I want to try breaking some formula I've found in most Otome (which is the lack of personality in main character, I found that most of them are Mary Sue, and when they are seduced a bit by the male characters they usually fall in very easily). However, the public seem not to dislike it as much as I do, because the game itself offers many good-looking male characters that throw sweet words at you that can make you giggling, also these male characters are usually not as bad as the protagonist in my opinion. In fact, I like that aspect, too.OokamiKasumi wrote:When you call something an otome (romance) game, the players have certain Expectations.
More than one character to pursue romantically.
One on One scenarios to get to know each romantic pursuit.
Each romantic interest has their own personal problem to solve.
An overall plot problem that can only be solved by partnering with one of the romantic pursuits. (Often a formal party situation.)
If you don't fulfill at least the barest form of an otome's formula, the players that downloaded your game with the expectation of playing an otome will become frustrated with the game, and some will even feel cheated.
So, I wonder if this protagonist formula is broken, will players find it strange and annoying? For example, you have a bunch of men already since the beginning, you can talk with them and raise their affection, but it has slow progress in romantic relationship. While I do like plot twist and such, many people seem to like the cliche one for this genre.
So, regarding the plot twist, complicated story and such, will people find it annoying and troublesome when it's combined to certain genre? I hope this is not OOT, by the way. If it is, then sorry, guys
Yep, I realized this, too, as I thought about it. But I just wonder if strong characteristics for female protagonist would not be liked, because players can't change her with themselves, or can it still be saved by proper plot and romantic value?Akai85 wrote:The heroine is kept bland and devoid of strong characteristics because she is not meant to be a person - she is a symbol of the romance the audience themselves is investing in.
I can agree with this. I prefer to take more time on character development and overall plot than trying to be original.Akai85 wrote:Anyway don't waste too much time trying to be original.
Yes, but they are executed properly and has a believable romantic progress. Not to mention that the heroine has also a strong personality and interesting background for the man to protect and love her.Akai85 wrote:If you look at movies recently out you will see that a lot of the romances in Disney movies and such now take place over a period of days.
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