So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

Questions, skill improvement, and respectful critique involving game writing.
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OokamiKasumi
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#46 Post by OokamiKasumi »

trooper6 wrote:Asking for "feedback on overall experience," which is an overly broad question, is likely to result in overly broad responses like:
"I thought it sucked!"
"I thought is was great!"

That feedback will not be helpful to you. More specific questions will generate more specific feedback, which is more likely to help you improve your game.
Have I told you how much I adore you lately? I do you know.

Shakezula wrote:
trooper6 wrote: Asking for "feedback on overall experience," which is an overly broad question, is likely to result in overly broad responses like:
"I thought it sucked!"
"I thought is was great!"

That feedback will not be helpful to you. More specific questions will generate more specific feedback, which is more likely to help you improve your game.
That would be your responsibility, to ask people who understand what your trying to do, and get the feedback out of them. Ask what they would thing would make the game better, regardless of how good it is now. Or even better yet someone who also writes games, because they know what your looking for.
Shakezula, your first mistake is assuming that anyone might "understand" what any other creator is "trying to do" and that "someone who also writes games" would have any idea what an individual creator is "looking for". Game Makers are Not created equal. Each and every one of them thinks differently and is trying to accomplish something different with their creations.

Your second mistake is in the assumption of who generally writes game critiques. Have you forgotten? Almost all reviews are posted by PLAYERS, especially those that appear in the professional gaming industry magazines. Professional Creators will frequently post Advice, but very rarely offer an actual Critique; especially for anyone that isn't already a close friend.
Shakezula wrote:NO, I'm saying It's not about the writing specifically. It's about things you may have overlooked. For example one feedback point I'd give to a game I just tried out recently is that the narrator character has no defining attributes. I wasn't sure if the who-less dialogue was supposed to be the main character's internal thoughts, or him talking to himself out loud, and moreover I couldn't easily distinguish between that and the actual narration, in certain contexts. That's a very specific thing to ask for feedback on, if you're not focused in on it.
That was very nice of you to point that out -- IF the creator considers that a salient point of consideration. What are you going to do if that's actually a deliberate effect the creator was trying for, and they feel that you've just patted them on the head for it? In short: What if that was a non-issue and they were looking for you to notice something else?

How are you to know what the Creator actually wants to know if they don't post specific Questions?
Last edited by OokamiKasumi on Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

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trooper6
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#47 Post by trooper6 »

OokamiKasumi wrote:
trooper6 wrote:Asking for "feedback on overall experience," which is an overly broad question, is likely to result in overly broad responses like:
"I thought it sucked!"
"I thought is was great!"

That feedback will not be helpful to you. More specific questions will generate more specific feedback, which is more likely to help you improve your game.
Have I told you how much I adore you lately? I do you know.
I love you, too! Yay!
OokamiKasumi wrote:How are you to know what the Creator actually wants to know if they don't post specific Questions?
Psychic Powers!

Shakezula...since I am an academic, I have to go through the academic publishing process. What does this entail? Peer review. What is that? Your article/book/etc is sent off anonymously to two experts in the field by the editor. The editor asks them quite broadly, what do you think of this article and should we publish it? The people being asked are smart, expert people who know the process of writing...and so you would imagine they would "just know what you are trying to do" and give great feedback, right? This should be your ideal situation, right?

Ooh no. Sometimes that generic overly broad question results in great peer review feedback.
Sometimes I get feedback that is basically this:
-This article's problem is that it didn't cite my work.
-This article's problem is that it didn't write the article I would have written.
-This article's problem is that the author cited this scholar that I don't like.
-This article's problem is that it didn't use a methodology that I prefer.
-This article's problem is that in the middle of the New and Old Musicology debate, it is falling on the New side and I'm on the Old side so I don't like it.
-This article's problem is that it doesn't do X (when X wasn't anything I wanted to do, nor was it relevant).

None of that feedback is useful. And this is from people whose job it is to give good, detailed feedback to that overly broad open ended question.
Sometimes you get really good feedback (Read these texts! The middle section is too bloated! etc). But I have received a lot of really useless feedback. And this from a really organized version of this open-ended question process...where we all are just "supposed to know."

Course evaluations do include a "Generally what did you think" question...but it is the last question out of 10-20 questions. All the rest are specific: How was the work load, how available was the professor outside of class, etc.

That generic question is fine as a cherry on top of your question request sundae, but it should be the meat of your feedback request process. Um...did I just propose a meat sundae?
Last edited by trooper6 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

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OokamiKasumi
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#48 Post by OokamiKasumi »

trooper6 wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote:How are you to know what the Creator actually wants to know if they don't post specific Questions?
Psychic Powers!
[Spits coffee all over keyboard.]
trooper6 wrote:Shakezula...since I am an academic, I have to go through the academic publishing process. What does this entail? Peer review. What is that? Your article/book/etc is sent off anonymously to two experts in the field by the editor. The editor asks them quite broadly, what do you think of this article and should we publish it? The people being asked are smart, expert people who know the process of writing...and so you would imagine they would "just know what you are trying to do" and give great feedback, right? This should be your ideal situation, right?

Ooh no. Sometimes that generic overly broad question results in great peer review feedback.
Sometimes I get feedback that is basically this:
-This article's problem is that it did cite my work.
-This article's problem is that it didn't write the article I would have written.
-This article's problem is that the author cited this scholar that I don't like.
-This article's problem is that it didn't use a methodology that I prefer.
-This article's problem is that in the middle of the New and Old Musicology debate, it is falling on the New side and I'm on the Old side so I don't like it.
-This article's problem is that it doesn't do X (when X wasn't anything I wanted to do, nor was it relevant).

None of that feedback is useful. And this is from people whose job it is to give good, detailed feedback to that overly broad open ended question.

Sometimes you get really good feedback (Read these texts! The middle section is too bloated! etc). But I have received a lot of really useless feedback. And this from a really organized version of this open-ended question process...where we all are just "supposed to know."
This is exactly the problem.
-- In fact, many of the posts in the Completed Games part of the forum look just like this.
trooper6 wrote:That generic question is fine as a cherry on top of your question request sundae, but it shouldn't be the meat of your feedback request process.
The more clearly one asks for what what they want reviewed, the more likely one will get what they actually want reviewed.
trooper6 wrote:Um...did I just propose a meat sundae?
[Snort...!]
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

verysunshine
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#49 Post by verysunshine »

Here's a tip: A quick check of the writer's Age will tell you ahead of time whether they're serious about wanting advice or not. Namely, if they're under 25, they're probably going to fight you every step of the way because they have yet to realize there are people out there that know more than they do about anything, never mind something as easy as writing a story. God help you if they're college students! (Those bastards think they're frikken authorities!)
You want to call writing a story easy? Nothing's easy if you want to do it well. Though your point about some college students thinking they know everything is so true. They even back-sass the people who are supposed to be teaching them.

"Dear Mr. Professor, I know I haven't done any work but I need this grade for my program so gimme the grade plzzzz n thx. (insert Heart Emoticon here)"
OokamiKasumi wrote:
trooper6 wrote:That generic question is fine as a cherry on top of your question request sundae, but it shouldn't be the meat of your feedback request process.
The more clearly one asks for what what they want reviewed, the more likely one will get what they actually want reviewed.
Thank you! It seems like finding good advice in online critique are like panning for gold. Most of what you get is dirt, but every once in a while you get a tiny gold nugget of advice you can actually use. If you ask a specific question, you get more gold, and the dirt you get is the kind you can use to plant a vegetable garden.
OokamiKasumi wrote:
trooper6 wrote:Um...did I just propose a meat sundae?
[Snort...!]
Yes, but Burger King beat you to it.

The young kids that ask for critique are probably used to getting it from their friends. Their friends only have good things to say. They assume that anybody who gives them critique will say nice things. They learn they are mistaken. They cry.

(The above paragraph is repetitive and I am not sorry.)

Build the basics first, then add all the fun bits.

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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#50 Post by trooper6 »

verysunshine wrote: You want to call writing a story easy? Nothing's easy if you want to do it well. Though your point about some college students thinking they know everything is so true. They even back-sass the people who are supposed to be teaching them.

"Dear Mr. Professor, I know I haven't done any work but I need this grade for my program so gimme the grade plzzzz n thx. (insert Heart Emoticon here)"
Ooh...I've had this one so many times.

Another one of my favorites? One of my grad students and her paper without a thesis.
Pre-Paper Assignment 1: Lit Review, no big flags there.
Pre-Paper Assignment 2: Abstract and Outline. I tell her: "this looks promising, but I'm not seeing a thesis. It doesn't answer the "so what" question and has no point. Make sure you do that when you start writing the actual paper."
Pre-Paper Assignment 3: Draft for Peer Review. I tell her, and her two peer reviewers tell her: "You have no thesis in this paper, you need to have a thesis or this paper will not work."
Oral Presentaion of the Final Paper: I tell her, look you still don't have a thesis. You need to have a thesis or your paper is going to fail. She replies, "This is an experimental paper, it doesn't need a thesis." I reply, "I went to the most experimental liberal arts college as an undergrad...I watched a final paper that was written in crayon and involved a supplemental interpretive dance. I know all about experimental papers. They still have a point. Your paper doesn't have a point. It is rambling, it is boring, it is obvious. It brings nothing new to the scholarly discourse. It doesn't have a point of view. You make sweeping generalizations with no evidence. You need to fix your paper."

She didn't fix her paper. Then she didn't like the grade she got.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

verysunshine
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#51 Post by verysunshine »

trooper6 wrote:
verysunshine wrote: You want to call writing a story easy? Nothing's easy if you want to do it well. Though your point about some college students thinking they know everything is so true. They even back-sass the people who are supposed to be teaching them.

"Dear Mr. Professor, I know I haven't done any work but I need this grade for my program so gimme the grade plzzzz n thx. (insert Heart Emoticon here)"
Ooh...I've had this one so many times.

Another one of my favorites? One of my grad students and her paper without a thesis.
Pre-Paper Assignment 1: Lit Review, no big flags there.
Pre-Paper Assignment 2: Abstract and Outline. I tell her: "this looks promising, but I'm not seeing a thesis. It doesn't answer the "so what" question and has no point. Make sure you do that when you start writing the actual paper."
Ah, the "so what" test. The bane of my first-year essays.
trooper6 wrote: Pre-Paper Assignment 3: Draft for Peer Review. I tell her, and her two peer reviewers tell her: "You have no thesis in this paper, you need to have a thesis or this paper will not work."
Oral Presentaion of the Final Paper: I tell her, look you still don't have a thesis. You need to have a thesis or your paper is going to fail. She replies, "This is an experimental paper, it doesn't need a thesis." I reply, "I went to the most experimental liberal arts college as an undergrad...I watched a final paper that was written in crayon and involved a supplemental interpretive dance. I know all about experimental papers. They still have a point. Your paper doesn't have a point. It is rambling, it is boring, it is obvious. It brings nothing new to the scholarly discourse. It doesn't have a point of view. You make sweeping generalizations with no evidence. You need to fix your paper."

She didn't fix her paper. Then she didn't like the grade she got.
I am dumbfounded. There are no words to describe my emotions right now. Perhaps "Graduate School!" followed by angry noises? It just goes to show students have trouble with criticism even after they have a degree.
(But the crayon dance thesis sounds fascinating.)

Build the basics first, then add all the fun bits.

Please check out my games on my itch.io page!

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trooper6
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#52 Post by trooper6 »

verysunshine wrote: I am dumbfounded. There are no words to describe my emotions right now. Perhaps "Graduate School!" followed by angry noises? It just goes to show students have trouble with criticism even after they have a degree.
(But the crayon dance thesis sounds fascinating.)
The crayon dance thesis was pretty amazing. It was about the composer Scriabin and his unfinished work Mysterium that was meant to induce synesthesia...and also the end of the world. It was really amazing...and I'm still a bit obsessed with Scriabin even all these years later due to how effective that thesis was.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

verysunshine
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Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#53 Post by verysunshine »

trooper6 wrote: The crayon dance thesis was pretty amazing. It was about the composer Scriabin and his unfinished work Mysterium that was meant to induce synesthesia...and also the end of the world. It was really amazing...and I'm still a bit obsessed with Scriabin even all these years later due to how effective that thesis was.
Now that sounds like someone that knows the right thing to do with a thesis! :D

Build the basics first, then add all the fun bits.

Please check out my games on my itch.io page!

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