Good Endings without the 'Good' part?

[n0tgin]

Hi guys.
OK so, a few months ago I read some translations of Black Wolves Saga: Bloody Nightmare and in one of the good endings, the protag doesn't end up with the character being pursued (actually, he murders her, but that's not too relevant). That got me wondering if anyone actually likes endings where the protag doesn't end up with the character and lives happily ever after. Basically, what I'm asking is, what do you think of good endings like that and would you actually play a VN if a route ends in that way?

[Vogue]

I'd say it's way more important that the plot is engaging and the characters are interesting. I don't think that most people want narratives to play out similarly for every story they consume, so anything you can do to differentiate yourself while still maintaining a quality tale is probably a plus. Stories with unsatisfying or open endings leave the reader with a different message than one that ties everything up in a nice little bow. It really just comes down to what the author wants to say.

[trooper6]

Do I like endings that do something other than wish fulfillment? Yes!
First off, I don't like games that conceive of some endings as Good or other endings as Bad, some endings as True and others as False.

I like endings that are the consequences of your choices and circumstances. And that should not always result in you getting whatever you want. If endings only resulted in couples pairing up, we'd never have Romeo & Juliet.

I want visual novels to be able to deliver Romeo & Juliet and not just When Harry Met Sally.

[n0tgin]

@Vogue
Thank you for sharing your views! I definitely agree, an engaging plot and characters you can care about are very important. Endings that tie everything up are ideal and doing them in a different way is probably a plus too, even though it's rarely pulled off (I've only actually seen one 'unconventional' ending, that's not even in a VN).
They're probably my favourite endings, specifically the ones which leave me slightly angry at first because I expected them to go the way I thought they would (but then when I re-watch/read, I find out that was exactly how the story should have ended).
Thank you for sharing your view!

@trooper6
I've never considered the concept of 'good' or 'bad' endings, now that you have said that you don't like the idea of them, I am slightly more aware of it. I think the way I see good and bad endings have changed now.
Yeah, I'm not so much a fan of wish-fulfillment endings too. I also especially dislike endings where the protagonist's (if they were given one) or characters' personalities are compromised/altered/changed for the sake of romance and not through actions.
Thank you for telling me your opinion, I appreciate it!

[trooper6]

Yeah, I'm not so much a fan of wish-fulfillment endings too. I also especially dislike endings where the protagonist's (if they were given one) or characters' personalities are compromised/altered/changed for the sake of romance and not through actions.
Thank you for telling me your opinion, I appreciate it!

My pleasure!

I want to add something...like you, I really don't like it when protagonist personality is changed for the sake of romance and not through actions. And this leads to a second point I'd like to bring up. I do like endings that are happy for the protagonist...but only if they are honestly earned. If they are cheap or contrived or unbelievable, that will result in the protagonist being happy but me as a player being unhappy.

But I feel the same about tragic endings. If the tragic endings are honestly earned, I like them. If they are contrived or unbelievable in context, I will be unhappy.

[Mad Harlequin]

I like endings that are the consequences of your choices and circumstances. And that should not always result in you getting whatever you want.

That's how I feel, too.

In the musical Little Shop of Horrors, Audrey II eats everyone and the alien plants take over the world. And this all happens because Seymour messes with something he doesn't understand.

But test audiences for the film version didn't like such an ending, so in that, Seymour manages to destroy his monstrous plant and live happily ever after with Audrey (though there is a tiny surviving bud in their garden at the end).

I like the original ending much more.

[trooper6]

I like endings that are the consequences of your choices and circumstances. And that should not always result in you getting whatever you want.

That's how I feel, too.

In the musical Little Shop of Horrors, Audrey II eats everyone and the alien plants take over the world. And this all happens because Seymour messes with something he doesn't understand.

But test audiences for the film version didn't like such an ending, so in that, Seymour manages to destroy his monstrous plant and live happily ever after with Audrey (though there is a tiny surviving bud in their garden at the end).

I like the original ending much more.

I like the original ending of Little Shop of Horrors better as well!

Seymour facilitates the murder of people. He takes regular actions that are really, really questionable. The original ending is the one that makes sense considering everything that had happened throughout the film. The "Hollywood ending" felt...it felt like pandering and it felt unearned.

Joss Whedon once said that he gives the audience what they need, not what they want. And I appreciate that sentiment. Since we are talking about an interactive media, I'd say: If there is a conflict between what the player wants and what the player has earned, give them what they have earned.

[SundownKid]

As said before, what actually happens in the ending doesn't matter, it's just how well the ending is told.

[Mad Harlequin]

As said before, what actually happens in the ending doesn't matter, it's just how well the ending is told.

No, I think it matters. An ending can change the entire tone of a story.

The last chapter of A Clockwork Orange gives Alex a second chance at life. As Alex prepares to go out and commit more crimes, he considers what he's done and what he's been through after meeting with a reformed friend, Pete, and thinks that maybe he should follow his friend's example. And if he does marry and have children, they may be just as destructive, or even more so.

When the novel was first published in the United States, the publisher felt that audiences wouldn't find this last chapter appealing, and convinced Anthony Burgess to allow the book to be cut. Stanley Kubrick's film adaptation is based on this original American edition, and he believed the twenty-first chapter was inconsistent with the rest of the book.

It's true, in my opinion, that Alex's sudden reformation is unrealistic as viewed with a real-world lens, but Burgess's intent was to write twenty-one chapters because the age of twenty-one is commonly recognized as a milestone and a marker of adulthood. So in that sense I see nothing wrong with Alex considering reform (Wikipedia also tells me that this is an example of metanoia).

Anyway, yes, endings matter.

[n0tgin]

Yeah, I think what happens in the endings matter.
You can doll up a piece of writing as much as you can, but it won't matter how well the message is written if the message itself is completely lackluster.
It's not good if a story is great, but the writing is not and it's not good if the writing is great, but the story is 'meh' either.

[Rossfellow]

I keep thinking of Saya no Uta when it comes to discussions like these. I just like how it executed its endings so much.

Three different endings, none of them could be properly labelled as "Good" or "Bad". It's purely interprative, and where it falls in the spectrum is decided by the player's own values. I like it so much.

Stories that make me stop and think about them are, personally, the best kinds.

[Katy133]

That got me wondering if anyone actually likes endings where the protag doesn't end up with the character and lives happily ever after. Basically, what I'm asking is, what do you think of good endings like that and would you actually play a VN if a route ends in that way?

I definitely think that an ending like that can be good. Some of my favourite works of literature have bittersweet and/or ambiguous endings. That's part of the reason why those works were so memorable to me.

[Kikaharu]

Endings can be very interesting. I recently have played a visual novel that for a guy I pursued his good ending was you becoming his mistress and him marrying someone who can't give birth to a baby but it puts him in a higher rank and to make sure there is offspring to keep his rank is pretty much why you become his mistress. Which made me think why is that a good ending? But if you think of who you are in the game you are of lower rank, no land of your own, and probably could own your own land one day but probably won't get married because you wouldn't be able to support your husband. But by becoming his mistress, he hires you to a position that would make your social rank higher, by having that job you would most likely be paid more than your previous job, you live with him and his wife so you don't have to worry about land and you'll be able to have kids but for social status they would be his wife's kids.

So after looking over it, it is quite a good ending even if it isn't the ending you would think of a good one being counted as. But I do agree with people who don't like endings counted as good or bad or etc. Example is if you want to be a criminal in the game and end up killing people and get away with it that could be counted as a good ending to the player even if the creator set it to a bad ending. Like why is it a bad ending if they wanted it to turn out that why, they picked choices to lead to that ending. It's like life we have many choices, we can't re-pick after we have chosen but we get to decide if it was a bad life or a good life we have.

I think endings can be considered differently by each person. A good ending doesn't always have to good. A good ending could be that you survived or that you caught the killer or just passed the grade. And a bad ending could also be the same thing you survived but how is that good if you didn't want to survive? Or maybe that killer you caught was a person who you loved? Or you passed the grade, maybe you didn't want to because you wanted to be there for a friend that failed that grade. Or you just didn't want to move on to the next grade because you are afraid of how the new school will be? (like middle school to high school)

Anyways I'm going to stop rambling haha but the endings can be very differently perceived based on your mindset. Hope that helped a bit.

[SundownKid]

Yeah, I think what happens in the endings matter.
You can doll up a piece of writing as much as you can, but it won't matter how well the message is written if the message itself is completely lackluster.
It's not good if a story is great, but the writing is not and it's not good if the writing is great, but the story is 'meh' either.

Okay, maybe my explanation was too simplistic. What I really meant was "I don't mind if the ending is good, bad, or bittersweet, as long as there is a valid and sensible reason for it being that way."

That's why I disliked the Mass Effect 3 ending. Defenders of the game are wont to claim that people disliked it because it was a bittersweet ending. That's not the case, people disliked it because the main character did something totally out-of-character (well, besides the logical inconsistencies everywhere).

[n0tgin]

Hm, I see, that makes sense then.