Strong characters, but weak plot?

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Rozume
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Strong characters, but weak plot?

#1 Post by Rozume »

As I'm developing my story and plot for my VN, I noticed something: I have very strong characters, but a very weak plot. While my story is primarily character driven, I feel I feel I put them in a place where there's not much plot, or that the plot itself is uninteresting.

Here's the current scene list for the introduction to see what I mean:
  • Character A packs up, her friends help her
  • Moves, meet Character B
  • Character A sees new room, takes a nap and has nightmares
  • Character A finds Character B, meets Character C
  • Everyone has dinner
  • Bedtime, Character A can't sleep so goes to kitchen and sees Character B
The scenes are all there to reveal character, but they don't seem to move the plot forward. But on the other hand, I don't have much of a plot in this story - just a bunch of character arcs that build up to the main conflict.

How do make my plot stronger? Furthermore, how do I find a balance between plot and characters? Or is it okay that my plot isn't gripping, as long as I have strong, well-developed characters?

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#2 Post by Mad Harlequin »

Rozume wrote:How do make my plot stronger? Furthermore, how do I find a balance between plot and characters?
Your characters need motivations and conflicts, and your scenes need to address them. I doubt your plot and character arcs are themselves the problem, but if you write them without these necessities, your characters might as well watch paint dry.
Or is it okay that my plot isn't gripping, as long as I have strong, well-developed characters?
No. Fully realized characters will yell at you for giving up on having an engaging plot. Trust me.
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#3 Post by binod_hyolmo »

I think every normal story plot goes like
1. desire or complication
2. steps to fulfill desire or resolve the complication
3. a powerful resolution
4. wrap up
But, it's up to the author how much he can play with human psychology and get the viewers engaging with the content. And, without great story plot, even strong characters will look pale.

From your scene list, I am not able to find out the theme of story. I just get feel of mystery little more heavier with words like 'nightmares' and 'can't sleep'.

Newbie here, just expressing my views. Correct me if I am wrong. :mrgreen:

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#4 Post by SundownKid »

That's a weird question - I don't see how having a weak story could possibly benefit any creative work. After I have read a weak story, I never say "I don't care about the story, those characters were amazing!". Instead, I say "man, this would have been so much better if those characters were put into a more engaging plot".

How do you make your plot stronger? It's sort of hard to give you advice without knowing what you want to accomplish. You might want to try studying the Hero's Journey though, which is a sort of general structure on how to make an exciting story.

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#5 Post by Rozume »

@MadHarlequin

Thanks for the advice! That was really helpful. I actually spent some time to figure out my character's wants, motivations, and goals and now I'm able to make stronger plot points and reach the ending!

@binod_hyolmo
Yeah, that is true. Welcome to the forums by the way!

@SundownKid
Yeah, I guess I should've explained what I want to accomplish with this. ^^; No matter, with everyone's tips here I made a more engaging plot for my story.

Thanks again everyone!

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#6 Post by Mad Harlequin »

Rozume wrote:Thanks for the advice! That was really helpful. I actually spent some time to figure out my character's wants, motivations, and goals and now I'm able to make stronger plot points and reach the ending!
No problem! It's a whole lot easier to write when you know where your characters want to go and how they want to get there, so to speak.

(I recall sending you a link to a really useful outlining guide recently. It's been a great help to me. Have you gotten anywhere with it? I hope so! :))
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#7 Post by YossarianIII »

I think people have given good advice so far, but I want to kind of play :twisted:'s advocate for a second.

There's no denying that a story needs purpose, but I don't think purpose necessarily means a strong plot.

Look at My Dinner with Andre. The whole plot of the movie is two guys have dinner. They don't argue, and they don't overcome any difficulties or even really change over the course of the film.

There's no hero's journey, no 3-act structure, no rising action-climax-resolution. What you have is two well-defined characters with very different ways of looking at the world.

Which isn't to say there's no structure. The dialogue is sharply written, logically organized, and full of humor and empathy.

This doesn't mean conflict isn't important. I'm just suggesting that when you think of what drives a story and what gives it purpose isn't always an obvious "strong plot." You don't have to subscribe to the Donald Kaufman school of plot outlining where every time things get dull you throw in a serial killer with multiple personality disorder... (I know no one above is actually suggesting this -- I just had to link to that video because no one pitches a bad movie plot quite like Nic Cage!)

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#8 Post by Mad Harlequin »

YossarianIII wrote:There's no denying that a story needs purpose, but I don't think purpose necessarily means a strong plot.

Look at My Dinner with Andre. The whole plot of the movie is two guys have dinner. They don't argue, and they don't overcome any difficulties or even really change over the course of the film.
I've never seen this film, but based on what I'm reading about it, it still has a "strong plot." It's just not presented in a structure that we see very often. Each of the two major characters has a different outlook on life, and these opposing points of view clash. There's no clear resolution, but sometimes plots end without one. Sometimes plots relate personal experiences rather than specific events. The important thing to remember in such cases is that there needs to be an underlying reason for these experiences to be communicated, even if the characters themselves aren't sure of it. Otherwise, the audience has no reason to come along.
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#9 Post by binod_hyolmo »

@YossarianIII,
Yap, you are correct but I think visual novels without purpose or goal (small or big) is relatively difficult to create. Viewer engagement is highly important in that kind of VNs. While in VNs with purpose or goal, viewer will bypass few glitches, as their mind is curious to know how the purpose or complication can be solved.

I think VNs without purpose or goal should be just like 'Gangnam Style'. We don't know what the song is about and where is PSY going but just can't take eyes of screen. The sub events are so engaging and they keep on coming one by one. :mrgreen:

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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#10 Post by KittyKatStar »

Thought I'd drop this here - talks about story *without* conflict. So whatever you find works for your story, go for it. =)

http://kaiplantsatree.tumblr.com/post/3 ... t-conflict
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#11 Post by Mad Harlequin »

KittyKatStar wrote:Thought I'd drop this here - talks about story *without* conflict. So whatever you find works for your story, go for it. =)

http://kaiplantsatree.tumblr.com/post/3 ... t-conflict
Thanks for the link! I learned a lot. I know there are plenty of stories without conflicts, and have loved them, but I didn't know of a particular term for them. Yasunari Kawabata's short stories are among my favorites, and many of them follow the kishōtenketsu structure (at least in spirit). Now I know of a new way to describe such stories. :)

Yossarian's example seems to follow a similar kind of structure as well.

Anyway, I suggested the addition of conflict in this case primarily because Rozume's story appears to demand the presence of at least two instances of it---the main character's struggle to move forward after surviving abuse, and her mother's denial of it.
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#12 Post by Cith »

Rozume wrote: How do make my plot stronger? Furthermore, how do I find a balance between plot and characters? Or is it okay that my plot isn't gripping, as long as I have strong, well-developed characters?
Point number 1: If you want a stronger plot, try only including scenes which move the story forward and cutting everything else. Your scenes which develop character will now have to take place within scenes which move the story forward. Try the following definition - a scene is only a scene if something changes (using Holly Lisle's definition here http://hollylisle.com/scene-creation-wo ... y-forward/

Obviously this is only a person's point of view, but I feel incorporating this will help you with your specific problem. For example:
- Everyone has dinner

What changes in this scene? Why is this scene needed? If nothing changes then scrap it.

-Bedtime, Character A can't sleep so goes to kitchen and sees Character B

It's possible something changes in this scene, it's also possible it's superfluous.

Point number 2 - It's possible to write an engaging story with a very weak plot. Most of Terry Pratchett's earlier books, for example.

Point number 3 - Depending on how you define "plot", a lot of "character-driven" stories don't have much of a plot at all and tend to focus on inner conflicts and relationships.
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#13 Post by OokamiKasumi »

Rozume wrote:...I have very strong characters, but a very weak plot. While my story is primarily character driven, I feel I feel I put them in a place where there's not much plot, or that the plot itself is uninteresting.
First, I think we should clarify what Character-Driven means.
Character-Driven does NOT mean: A story that focuses on the characters.
Character-Driven means:
-- A story's events happen because the characters choose (or refuse) to make things happen. In other words; the story's Plot is Driven by the events caused by the characters.

Examples of Character-Driven stories:
-- 'Hero' stories where the character volunteers to be a hero such as Iron Man, Batman, the Harry Potter series, How to Train your Dragon, and most Romance stories such as; Miss Congeniality, Secretary, Pride & Prejudice.

In comparison:

Plot-Driven means:
-- A story's events happen because the world around the characters makes things happen to the characters. In other words; the story's Plot is Driven by the events happening to the characters.

Examples of Plot-Driven stories:
-- 'Hero' stories where the hero is pushed into being a hero whether they want to or not, such as Spiderman, Pitch Black, most broad-range High fantasy stories such as The Sandman graphic novel series, The Wheel of Time, The Sword of Shannara, Lord of the Rings books and movies, and most Science-Fiction such as Brave New World, Equilibrium, The Matrix, Soylant Green, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica.

To simplify:
-- If the Characters make things happen to each other and/or the World around them it's Character-Driven.
-- If the World around them makes things happen to the Characters it's Plot-Driven.
Rozume wrote:How do make my plot stronger? Furthermore, how do I find a balance between plot and characters? Or is it okay that my plot isn't gripping, as long as I have strong, well-developed characters?
Let's start with this:
Rozume wrote:Is it okay that my plot isn't gripping, as long as I have strong, well-developed characters?
NO, it's Not Okay.
-- No matter how interesting your characters are, if they're in a boring story your characters will seem boring too. To show off interesting characters, they have to DO interesting things. A cool back-story is Not Enough.

Example:
-- Batman, Spiderman, and Iron man were fishing on the bank of a river. As a result of the smart-assed comments passed around between them, an argument broke out over whose superpower was best. To decide, each one one caught a fish using their superpowers. Still unable to decide, they went home.

Boring.

Why? Because even though we had 3 interesting and engaging superheroes, they didn't really do anything but fish. Sure, the dialogue between them was probably pretty awesome, but honestly? You could have told the same story with 3 old men, 3 little kids, or 3 grannies. In fact it actually would have been a better story if the 3 old men, 3 little kids, or 3 grannies had used superpowers to fish.

Those three superheroes were WASTED on this story.
-- If you're going to have super Characters, you need a super Story to show them off.
Rozume wrote:How do make my plot stronger? Furthermore, how do I find a balance between plot and characters?
This is the technique I use when I have plenty of characters but no real story for them.

FIRST, decide who your 3 main characters are:
-- the Main character:
-- the Ally or Middle-man character:
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character:

This doesn't mean you can't have a huge cast of characters! Simply that these are the 3 that the main story focuses on.

Examples:

In Hellsing (Plot-Driven) the 3 characters are thus:
-- the Main character: Sir Integra Hellsing
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Seres Victoria
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Alucard

Until an actual Villain is added, then the cast changes to:
-- the Main character: Alucard
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: either Sir Integra OR Seres Victoria; depending on the scene they're in.
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Guest Villain

in Full Metal Alchemist (sometimes Plot-driven, sometimes Character-driven depending on the episode,) the 3 characters are thus:
-- the Main character: Edward Elric
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Alphonse Elric
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Colonel Mustang

Until an actual Villain is added, then the cast changes to:
-- the Main character: Edward Elric
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Alphonse Elric, Colonel Mustang, or guest Victim,
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Guest Villain

Keep in mind that Hellsing and Full Metal Alchemist are both Series stories so new characters are constantly being introduced as Victims (Ally characters) and as Villains to expand the story.

In a Traditional (English-language) Romance story, however, the roles change drastically.
-- These Romances are traditionally told from the Female point of view and she does Not initiate the romance --or hardly anything else-- the Male character does. This is because a female that was 'forward' about her affections was considered to be 'impolite', 'pushy' and low-class. Since most of these stories featured high-society females; lost princesses, impoverished Ladies, and down-trodden heiresses, being 'pushy' was not something they would do. Only female Villains acted that way.

So...! How did Romance happen?
-- It started with some sort of Event where the two crossed paths, and the Hero decided that he wanted the Lady's . . . company, (think: Cinderella.) The rest of the story consisted of the many ways the Heroine sought to 'escape his clutches' until he finally rescues her from some sort of mortal peril and confesses his love. She then decides that she loves him. Cue: Happily Ever After. (Unfortunately, I am not exaggerating, the plots really were this simple.)
-- More modern romances have the heroine rescue the hero in some way at the center of the story, and during this discover that she loves him. Even so, she still runs from his 'clutches' for quite a bit until he finally rescues her from some sort of mortal peril and confesses his love. She then admits that she loves him. Cue: Happily Ever After.

Traditional Romance 3 main characters:
-- the Main character: Heroine
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: His best friend and/or Her best friend.
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Hero

So...! What should you do with your cast of characters?

Once you decide who your 3 main characters are:
-- the Main character:
-- the Ally or Middle-man character:
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character:

Ask EACH character these 3 questions:
1. Who am I, and what do I do?
2. What do I want?
3. What is the Worst thing that could happen to me?

Once you know the answers to these three questions, you pretty much have your story.

-- By combining the 1's you have the Opening scene to your story.
-- By combining the 2's you have your External Conflicts scenes (what happens TO the characters,) and your Internal Conflict scenes (how they Feel about what's happening.)
-- By combining the 3's you have your Main Character's Ordeal/Self-Sacrifice scene; the one thing they don't want to do, but have to (often to survive,) and your potential Climax scene.

Do not be afraid to change things around or adjust things to suit the story you want to tell.

However...!
-- When you are making a multi-path Visual Novel things can get a little tricky because a Visual Novel is more like a Series story where the main characters change depending on which branch of the story your main character is involved in.

Example: Romance game (bishoujo/otome):
-- the Main character: Player Character
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Romantic Interest 1
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Romantic Rival or actual Villain

-- the Main character: Player Character
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Romantic Interest 2
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Romantic Rival or actual Villain

-- the Main character: Player Character
-- the Ally or Middle-man character: Romantic Interest 3 (etc...)
-- the Villain or Trouble-maker character: Romantic Rival or actual Villain

Because of this, the story can change drastically depending on who the main character is with and what the individual Ally characters' problems are PLUS who they are in conflict with. In other words, the Villain can also change depending on which Ally character the main character is dealing with.

Either way, the story cannot END until both the Main character's problem and the chosen Ally character's problem have been Solved.

Hopefully that will provide some help.
Last edited by OokamiKasumi on Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:59 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#14 Post by trooper6 »

OokamiKasumi, what a great post! I loved your discussion of traditional romance structure...and the class based analysis suddenly makes a number of things clear to me that weren't before.

It also makes me think a bit about one of the experiments I'm wanting to do with my next VN after this current one. So thanks!
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Re: Strong characters, but weak plot?

#15 Post by OokamiKasumi »

trooper6 wrote:OokamiKasumi, what a great post! I loved your discussion of traditional romance structure...and the class based analysis suddenly makes a number of things clear to me that weren't before.
LOL! I freely admit to reading way too many historical (traditional) Romance novels, and bodice-rippers.
trooper6 wrote:It also makes me think a bit about one of the experiments I'm wanting to do with my next VN after this current one. So thanks!
My pleasure. I'm glad I could provide you with a bit of inspiration!
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