Unlikeable Male Chars [Closed]

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Kuiper
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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#16 Post by Kuiper »

One way that you can make devious characters more sympathetic is by having them use their powers for good. You describe the characters as a "bunch of jerks" for resorting to insults, lying, blackmail, and violence, but these are tools that could also be used to defend the weak (for example, they could use them to defend MC against other bullies). If they stop targeting the weak and instead begin targeting other bullies, you can make their behavior much more morally defensible without significantly changing the tactics they use. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," as the expression goes.

Omar Little is one of the most beloved characters from HBO's The Wire, despite the fact that he is a violent criminal. Omar is a "stick-up boy:" he carries a big gun, and makes his money by stealing money and drugs using violence (or threat of violence). Why do audiences love Omar so much? Because he steals from the bad guys!

On a similar note, one of the themes I'm exploring in a story that I'm writing is "sometimes it takes a criminal to catch a criminal:" in this story, the main character is forced to collude with thieves, drug dealers, and a variety of unsavory characters, but it's justified by the fact that these deeds are done in the pursuit of a murderer.
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ladynamoru
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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#17 Post by ladynamoru »

First of all, many thanks for the wonderful replies

Reason why im having doubts is that im making a romance vn (w/ the 4 guys)
And I think that in romance vn " male char should be like-able and represent the guy of your dreams"
( but in this game , they aren't)

Originally, I wrote this as college project (w/out romance) and writing it is fun already in my part since it is challenging.

This a game for other to play so I want it to be a memorable experience for others

I agree that there's a specific market for these jerk ass characters so im having doubts
( good thing i ask you guys since i need the push to clear my doubts)

Depend on the player choices
the 4 bullies will end up protecting the mc

I made some changes with the script: ( based on what i read)
(many thanks guys ^_^)

since it is romance, the bullied target are other student.
while the mc is bullied by other girls in her class
(but there are choices in game play that will make the date-able guys bullied her)

I decided to tone down their evilness ( someone suggested this one since not all people are pure evil irl)

I personally don't believe in the word "change" (from bad to good) since reality speaking, people doesn't change
(People change in front of specific person and for only a period of time)

I also want the mc to like the guys
( but how in the world would she like them if they're not like-able to begin with?!)
(Magically liking them is also out of the question)
I did come up some ways to make them like-able but for me its not enough
(unless the player choose to be a saint and forgive the bullies)
im still thinking up some ways for them to be like-able

So any suggestion is still welcome as i painfully rewrite and re-polish the script.

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#18 Post by anon2045 »

Here are 9 things to make your character more likable:

1. Self-awareness. If the person feels guilty and know they are too blame, if they are tormented or conflicted about doing evil deeds, if we see their tenderness or kindness even when performing evil deeds, then that person becomes much harder to hate. Ever notice that when a person instantly owns up to their mistakes and blame themselves instead of others, your anger towards them sort of deflates? It works for villain/antagonist characters to.

2. Give them a good reason/justification why they act the way they do. This can be tricky, but as other said don't attempt to glorifiy or romanticize or soften the blow of how bad/evil their actions are. The full impact of what they're doing should ripple in bad consequences (people hate him / people get hurt / etc). But if you can make the villain have a good valid reason for going around doing what they do, it makes it harder to completely dislike them. Look at this list for possible motivations for villain-like characters:
  • . As a rule of the thumb, the more they have to do lose or have at stake, the more sympathetic they become. As far as examples... perhaps the violent/moody character start fights all the time because they feel hurt and physical pain takes away or distracts from emotional pain? Or maybe they do it to protect themselves or someone else? Perhaps the hacker character is blackmailing the principal or an upperclassmen in order for his bullied little brother to be protected? Going with this idea, perhaps the hacker is a vigilante-type character driven by revenge, because the people they are blackmailing escape the law and they keep hurting the people they love somehow and no one believes them? If it's the upperclassmen, maybe they are on the honor roll, maybe everyone believes the upperclassmen is a complete goody-two-shoes and are perfect and aren't willing to believe the notorious trouble-maker when he explains what actually happened? What if it's the principal, and he is fairly powerful political figure in the community and he knows that if he takes it to the police it will be brushed under the rug? Maybe the violent character feels pressured to get into fights by some kind of authority figure? Someone who is supposed to protect them, like their parents or a teacher, but for whatever reason they use him to torment/bully someone? For example, in the k-drama "Angry Mom", the bully was manipulated by their legal guardian, whose a lackey of a teacher who had a relationship with a student. When the teacher/student relationship ended, legal guardian and bully character were ordered to bully the girl and threaten her in order to force her to keep quiet about their illicit relationship. The bully feels cornered by the people who's supposed to protect him and follows their orders. Not saying you should do the same thing, just showing an example of how this could play out.

    3. Even bad traits, in the right perspective, can actually be good to have or can be seen as good traits. Stubborn characters are determined and are not easily influenced. Cynical characters, unlike naive characters, aren't easy to fool and are shrewd at people's true motivations. Hackers are good at computers and therefore skilled and intelligent in their field. (There's something about intelligence and competence that makes characters that much more likable.) People who are good at lying, think quick on their feet and are good on improvisation. Therefore, they usually have quick-wit. Narcistic characters are confident in themselves and are usually impeccably dressed and have a good sense of fashion. (But expectations can be hilariously inverted if this is not the case, and their dress is outdated or corny.)

    4. Humor. Making the character humorous and fun on the page goes a long way in their likability factor. The humor can be either unintentional on the character's part (like the baby in family guy with plans of world domination) or intentional (characters with sassy, snarky, humorous lines always begrudgingly win my heart). I think this might go especially well for the liar character. Maybe he's a charmer, the typical casanova, but he's the type to con you of your money and leave you high and dry. (Cat burglars, con men, gentleman (phantom) thieves, and tricksters are all characters that fit well in this archetype - charming, funny, and all morally grey). Then again, maybe the narcistic characters can fit in this too. Howl from Howl's Moving Castle was a tad narcissistic, but since it's played off for humor and because he's so hilariously over-dramatic about it, it's funny.

    5. Give them a soft spot. Perhaps their is one person in their lives they are willing to do anything for to make happy (like a little bro or their sick mom). Perhaps they have a fondness for children or animals. It seems a bit cliche, sure. But one of my favorite villain characters - Yubaba from Spirited Away - is unkind to most, but spoils her baby son rotten because she loves him.

    6. Make the character suffer. (The impact of this lessens if they deserved it in some way). This is why tragic pasts tend to work so well, because usually the character is young and innocent and didn't deserve the hell they went through. People tend to irritated by the insertion of a tragic past though, especially if it isn't done particularly well. But the general rule still stands. The little mermaid original fairytale, where she makes a deal with the shady sea witch and ends up with legs that feel as if they're being stabbed with knives at every step -- well, that certainly made me more involved in her tale, made me root for a happy ending so that the suffering is worth her sacrifice. Tragedy has a way of poking at the heart strings.

    7. Give them supporting good traits. Traits that make them a bit more likable. This is easy enough to do: think of what characters you find appealing and list what you found appealing about them. People who are brave and self-sacrificial may fit in this. Maybe they are hard-working type, maybe they are cool, calm, and collected (people have a thing for the cool-headed, analytical megane types in otomes, btw). British accents or an adorkable awkward air or an easy to blush characters or rough on the outside (but sweet on the inside) characters are also appealing. (At least for me, notice how lots of these things are subjective.) Characters who are charming and easygoing can be fun to hang around with. As I said before, humor always helps. In any event, yes, perhaps they can be a cruel at times, (maybe the violent type is always getting in trouble) but perhaps she sticks around them because they are fun to be around, or tease, or because she sees glimpses of something better in them. One of the romantic leads in the k-drama School 2015 is the type to always gets into fights and is making trouble, but he's also a free-spirit, and he makes things more interesting and fun.

    8. Good chemistry. This is hard to define, but ultimately they both offer each other something that the other needs, they fill or make up for the things they are lacking in each other. A cool and charming MC for a hot-headed bully, perhaps she's always the one who calms things down and smooths things over? A prickly, antagonistic MC and a charming villain, he's her only friend even though she's still suspicious of him? A cheerful dreamer MC and a melodramatically depressive romantic lead, she makes him laugh and he keeps her grounded? If their interactions are cute, it can make us root for their romantic relationship even if the romantic lead isn't exactly perfect.

    9. Treats the MC kindly. "If the romantic lead treats the MC kindly or helps them, then it makes the reader more forgiving towards them." This was said by someone else in this thread but it is worth repeating. Put in another way, if the romantic lead hurts the MC it makes them more dislikable (maybe even completely turned off, depending on how terrible their actions are). We're seeing the story through the MC's eyes, we feel her hurt more than anyone else's. So we'll feel it more if he hurts the MC, (especially if the MC is designed as a choose-your-own-personality-type character, whose goal is to place the player more in their shoes, make them feel more invested in her story).

    And physical attractiveness also helps, of course. Superficial, but true. Though this is harder to pull off if the medium is 100% written word, such as in novels and short stories. Your description skills must be top-notch for you to pull it off without it becoming purple prose. But for VNs, the artist is the one who'll be most concerned with pulling it off...

    Hope this helps!

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#19 Post by ladynamoru »

anon2045 wrote:Here are 9 things to make your character more likable:
Hope this helps!
OMG! :shock:
So guide number 1-3 and number 5 is what I lack

I dont know how can I thank you enough
I will definitely use this guide. Since I felt that the ones in my script is not enough (it has number 4 up to 9 except number 5)

Thank you very much not only for the guide but for your time in answering.
I bet what you share wouldn't just help me but also other writers

Again, thank you very much

(Ok, back to repolish my script ^_^)

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#20 Post by anon2045 »

ladynamoru wrote: OMG! :shock:
So guide number 1-3 and number 5 is what I lack

I dont know how can I thank you enough
I will definitely use this guide. Since I felt that the ones in my script is not enough (it has number 4 up to 9 except number 5)

Thank you very much not only for the guide but for your time in answering.
I bet what you share wouldn't just help me but also other writers

Again, thank you very much

(Ok, back to repolish my script ^_^)

I'm glad you found it helped. I wrote them down because you seemed to reach the decision to make them likable. (So I thought it was what you wanted your VN to be like?) But now looking back at the thread and looking at this [one], I wonder if it was the best choice to write the list. If you want to write a darker VN, according to your original vision, then that's okay. If you want to write a relatively light VN with relatable, likable villain-like leads that's okay too. The most important thing is to write the VN to please yourself. Don't try and write it out of the expectation of pleasing your friend or other people. (I should have emphasized this before... but I didn't think it was necessary at the time.)

No matter what you write, it will find an audience. There'll be someone out there who will like it. A more risqué, dark approach might pave the way for a new type of genre to arise. It's harder, of course, to pave a new road when there are no guides on how to do it right (and there are some who argue if there is even a 'right' way to write it), but if you stay true to the reasons why you like it, if it pleases you, it's bound to please other people. The emotional ground you uncover, can only be uncovered if you can emotionally connect to what you write. And at the end of the day, at least you pleased yourself.

I think it's very important - when you write a story - to figure out what you're intending to write and the reasons why it appeals to you. Once you do, it's easier to decide which course to take, stay true to your vision, and follow the road wherever it leads with confidence.

Anyway, forgot to mention - you don't have to do everything on the list. One or two could be enough. Think of them as tricks/methods more than a checklist. The more qualities they have on the list the more they move away from villain category, actually.

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#21 Post by ladynamoru »

Ok I will ^-^

Again, ♥ thank you very much ♥

I dont mind changing some parts since my target is to make a game that everyone will enjoy.

If I plan to do a game where only I could like and appreciate, (without considering the players)
Then, I should'nt even try to release a game.
(Since a game is something to be enjoy not only by yourself but with other as well.
Im also happy with making the otome version, even with the challenge of making my story into an otome game.

Note : I still have plans to continue my original game which is the dark ver
( for self satisfaction)

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#22 Post by trooper6 »

ladynamoru wrote: I dont mind changing some parts since my target is to make a game that everyone will enjoy.
You will never make a game that everyone will enjoy. That is an impossible task.
ladynamoru wrote: If I plan to do a game where only I could like and appreciate, (without considering the players)
Then, I should'nt even try to release a game.
There is no evidence that only you would appreciate your dark game. There is evidence that your friend wouldn't like it, but there could be an entire audience that appreciates your dark game.

On the other hand, I find things that are made purely to please others, that don't have the unique voice of the author...tends to please no one in the end.

I think it is important to not lose your own creative voice.
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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#23 Post by verysunshine »

Please note that this post is a bit disorganized. Sorry.
ladynamoru wrote:Ok I will ^-^

Again, ♥ thank you very much ♥

I dont mind changing some parts since my target is to make a game that everyone will enjoy.

If I plan to do a game where only I could like and appreciate, (without considering the players)
Then, I should'nt even try to release a game.
(Since a game is something to be enjoy not only by yourself but with other as well.
Im also happy with making the otome version, even with the challenge of making my story into an otome game.

Note : I still have plans to continue my original game which is the dark ver
( for self satisfaction)
I agree with trooper6. You can't make a game that everyone will enjoy, but you definitely can make a VN that specific audiences can enjoy. The audience is out there. I'm interested in it! Dark games can be deliciously fun.

As for the characters... well, I don't have many new thoughts to add to the conversation. My main suggestions would be to look at context and character depth. The context for a scene can help with how people interpret them. You've said that the guys wouldn't bully the main character, but in the beginning of the game, how do they treat her? This can vary from character to character. Character depth, adding good traits and motives, can also help. No one person is 100% evil. (Hitler painted buildings.) I don't know if you've seen the "making an unlikeable character more likeable" post on Jessica Brody's blog, but if you have, here it is again. Making them look hot could help too.

Something I don't think anybody's brought up yet: The main character is a victim of bullying. Why would she want to tame these kinds of guys? (Revenge?) (Ignorance?) (Her bullies not being the same kind of bully as the bullies MC deals with?)

"Bully" is a term that can apply to lots of different things. I immediately thought of the cliche swirlies-and-wedgies type, but based on your short character descriptions those don't appear to show up. Edward from Twilight is a moody manipulative prick, but girls fawn over him by the thousands. There are many movies with cool hacker protagonists. Hannibal Lector doesn't fit with any of these characters but he's interesting to watch.

The longer I think about this, the more I realize your character descriptions are just two traits. Two traits does not a character make. No, you don't need to change existing traits, but you do need to expand on them. (Sunds like you have. It would be cool if we could see that) If the traits in your opening post are what you showed your friend, it makes sense to me that she thought they were unlikeable. Only showing negative traits makes characters seem like a bad person. TV Tropes madea list dedicated to that very thing.

Build the basics first, then add all the fun bits.

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Re: Do I need to change the male characters?

#24 Post by ladynamoru »

trooper6 wrote:There is no evidence that only you would appreciate your dark game. There is evidence that your friend wouldn't like it, but there could be an entire audience that appreciates your dark game.

On the other hand, I find things that are made purely to please others, that don't have the unique voice of the author...tends to please no one in the end.

I think it is important to not lose your own creative voice.
Ok. I will keep what you said in mind. Thank you very much for the advice. :oops:
verysunshine wrote: Something I don't think anybody's brought up yet: The main character is a victim of bullying. Why would she want to tame these kinds of guys? (Revenge?) (Ignorance?) (Her bullies not being the same kind of bully as the bullies MC deals with?)
Thank you for the link. I really appreciate it ^_^

As per your question:
The MC has been bullied for a very long time to the point that even if she dont want to admit it she's got used to it,(which is an unhealthy way of thinking)
She hopes to have friends in her school so when she met with 4 guys who
"She thought was being bullied", she immediately helps them.

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