Questions regarding OPs and ATL

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spongy
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Questions regarding OPs and ATL

#1 Post by spongy »

Hi everyone! I'm currently working on quite an ambitious project. I'm trying to keep it "easy" to make though as I've started several Vn projects in the past and have abandoned them because of umm... well, lost of interest and boredom.

Anyway, I'm currently deciding if I'm going to try and make an OP for the project or not. I've thought to myself that since I'm going to try to make my own art assets this time, I might as well try to. Now for the problems...

First of all, can an OP be made using purely instrumental music? I have seen some OELVNs here that pulled it off. Would it "ruin" the OP?

Well, I guess that depends on whether it fits the OP. Most likely, if I'm going to make an OP, then I would use purely instrumental music as it's impossible for me to obtain songs. And there's also a problem with that. I don't know how to compose music so is it okay to use others' compositions? I sure do hope so otherwise, well...

So umm, for the next problem, I was thinking of trying on ATL to make it. I know it won't be easy but as I don't have a program that can be used to do it, I don't have a choice. I've got an idea of how the OP will go (again, if I'm ever going to try and make one) but there's no limit in ATL, right? Well, it would be hard because the ideas that I have on my head are things like 3D style rotation and shadows. I think they're possible but will require a WHOLE lot of coding (and editing, as the rotations would be made using animation frames). Well, looking at my "coding skills", I cannot do it because umm, well, I'm really bad at "coding", even if they're simple codes. I do think however, that it is possible if I dedicate my time learning the ATL language. And if it's too hard for me, I'll still be able to make simple ones, right? Things like showing pictures and moving them. Well, I don't really hope to make a complicated one. I've seen Rewrite's OP and I've an idea on how it could be "remade" into Ren'Py but... lol. Lots of codes... those rotating gears, blurring and zooming, animated sprite shadows... Anyway, so I don't have a chance in making a complicated one XD.

I'm still deciding if I'm going to use ATL (if I'm ever going to make an OP) or maybe a program. I know some but well, I can really afford them and honestly don't think I can buy any. I'm positive that there isn't a free one.

So umm, well, thanks for reading!

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Re: Questions regarding OPs and ATL

#2 Post by Asceai »

First of all, can an OP be made using purely instrumental music? I have seen some OELVNs here that pulled it off. Would it "ruin" the OP?
Commercial Japanese VNs have done this. This was mostly done during the PC98 era, since the built-in hardware, while capable of delicious FM music was not really up to rendering vocals. There are still examples in the Windows era, though:
Sakura Musubi
Cannonball (NSFW)
Angel Bullet
SEVEN-BRIDGE
More I can't think of currently =P
So, yeah, there's precedent.
Well, I guess that depends on whether it fits the OP. Most likely, if I'm going to make an OP, then I would use purely instrumental music as it's impossible for me to obtain songs. And there's also a problem with that. I don't know how to compose music so is it okay to use others' compositions? I sure do hope so otherwise, well...
It's okay in that it's legal to use other people's compositions if you are legally allowed to use those compositions. Music is just like art or anything else; if you have permission, you can do it. If the license lets you, you can do it, providing you abide by the terms.
If the question isn't so much about what is legal as it is about what is the right choice for an OP, well, that's up to you. The OP is typically a signature part of your work - it's going to, in some form or another, represent your work. So it may not be a good idea to have a piece everyone has heard for the OP in particular, whereas you can usually get away with it for background music. On the other hand, if the choice is between doing this and not having an OP, go ahead and do it. It would be better to have an original song for this, though.
I've got an idea of how the OP will go (again, if I'm ever going to try and make one) but there's no limit in ATL, right?
Could you rephrase this particular question?
The main limit you come up against with using ATL is performance-related. OP movies are rendered to video so they can be as computationally expensive as the creators want them to be. However, processing power is an issue for you because it's going to be rendered in real time on everyone's hardware, so you're going to need to make decisions like the level of processing power / video card to support when designing your effects. Plus, like you said, ATL can't do all sorts of things like blurs, deforms etc.
Plenty of commercial Japanese VNs have done OPs using the VN engine, and most of these were far far faaaar less advanced than Ren'Py. If you watch the OP movies for ALMA, Kanon, AIR, Clover Heart's, MoonLight, those are all examples. They're simple, but generally pretty effective, and you can do far more advanced stuff than those with Ren'Py.
Anyway, give a shot at doing it in Ren'Py and see how it works out. You may just have to limit your designs to what you can feasibly manage given the above limitations though.

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Re: Questions regarding OPs and ATL

#3 Post by spongy »

Thanks! I'm a fan of VNs but I haven't really played many of them, mainly because I only do so when I "feel like it". I didn't know that some JP VNs have used their respective engines to make their OPs.

As for the limitation question, I was referring to the effects that can be made using ATL, and not Python coding. I don't think it is needed, though as there are lots of effects that can already be done using ATL. So performance issues are the only problems that can be encountered. Even so, by recording the OP and making it into a video file, would it be possible to avoid them?

Thanks!

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Re: Questions regarding OPs and ATL

#4 Post by Asceai »

spongy wrote:Thanks! I'm a fan of VNs but I haven't really played many of them, mainly because I only do so when I "feel like it". I didn't know that some JP VNs have used their respective engines to make their OPs.

As for the limitation question, I was referring to the effects that can be made using ATL, and not Python coding. I don't think it is needed, though as there are lots of effects that can already be done using ATL. So performance issues are the only problems that can be encountered. Even so, by recording the OP and making it into a video file, would it be possible to avoid them?

Thanks!
Sure, although you'd still be limited by what you can do on your own system (not to mention the extra resources needed to record video) but you could absolutely do that.

I don't distinguish ATL from Python, for reference. Admittedly, the main thing ATL is used for is to specify transform properties, but you are not limited to transform properties. ATL is just a specification language and you can include Python in there, e.g. to use things like AlphaBlend which can do fancy (although probably expensive) effects. You could also use transitions and things, although you can't use them in ATL (except with something like AlphaBlend) - so basically, I'm just advising on creating an OP using everything Ren'Py can do, not just ATL, although you'll probably do most of it with ATL.

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Re: Questions regarding OPs and ATL

#5 Post by SundownKid »

spongy wrote: So umm, for the next problem, I was thinking of trying on ATL to make it. I know it won't be easy but as I don't have a program that can be used to do it, I don't have a choice. I've got an idea of how the OP will go (again, if I'm ever going to try and make one) but there's no limit in ATL, right? Well, it would be hard because the ideas that I have on my head are things like 3D style rotation and shadows. I think they're possible but will require a WHOLE lot of coding (and editing, as the rotations would be made using animation frames). Well, looking at my "coding skills", I cannot do it because umm, well, I'm really bad at "coding", even if they're simple codes. I do think however, that it is possible if I dedicate my time learning the ATL language. And if it's too hard for me, I'll still be able to make simple ones, right? Things like showing pictures and moving them. Well, I don't really hope to make a complicated one. I've seen Rewrite's OP and I've an idea on how it could be "remade" into Ren'Py but... lol. Lots of codes... those rotating gears, blurring and zooming, animated sprite shadows... Anyway, so I don't have a chance in making a complicated one XD.

I'm still deciding if I'm going to use ATL (if I'm ever going to make an OP) or maybe a program. I know some but well, I can really afford them and honestly don't think I can buy any. I'm positive that there isn't a free one.

So umm, well, thanks for reading!
Personally, I would suggest hiring someone to make the OP in whatever video editing program they have. It's probably cheaper or at least less time extensive than buying a program to do it yourself. Not only would you have to pay for the program but learn how to create the OP in it. And using ATL is bad for really complicated stuff especially if you want to add special effects. Expect to get really frustrated if you want to try to make an extensive OP using code.

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