Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#16 Post by Sharm »

I think that no matter how you phrase it it's going to look like programming. Seeing code is when my brain shuts off and refuses to try. The more it looks like I'm editing the game play and not working behind the scenes the better. So instead of scripting in a character image, I'd prefer to drag that image into the scene. I'd prefer to type in the actual text boxes I'll be using in game instead of typing out a script. Stuff like that. The more visual you make it, the happier I am.
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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#17 Post by 2dt »

Sharm. Thanks for the input. Interesting how we're all wired so differently.

Also, for any of you who were interested in the earlier question about Construct2, I did some research and EVEN can in fact be embedded into a Construct2 game. I'm still a ways off from making that happen, but know it can be done.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#18 Post by Arowana »

This looks like a really cool project, and I would love to see it realized! I mostly just want something with Renpy-like functionality that can easily port to other platforms (iOS yesss), but your emphasis on animations is most definitely welcome.

For essential VN features, ones off the top of my head would include:
  • skipping and auto modes (super important!)
  • rollback or text history feature (also pretty important imo)
  • good sound/music support (maybe also support for voice acting?)
  • persistent data (maybe also multi-game persistence?)
  • easy to customize in-game GUI (not essential, but nice)
Though you’ve probably already thought of those. ;)

However, since the project already sounds so ambitious, I hope you don’t get too caught up in adding bunches of new features/fancy visual editor/etc. All those things sound great, but hey, even just completing a framework with the features you’ve already planned would be pretty great too. So best of luck with everything, and I look forward to seeing what you do for NaNo. :)

As for the barriers to programming issue, I think one of the major ones is obtuse, scattered, or incomplete documentation (you can see some of the qualms people have with the Renpy documentation here). Clear, accessible docs with lots of concrete examples would be a great help.
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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#19 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Deji wrote: Artists like me are visually oriented people, we think in images, not in code, like programmers or words like writers, so it's hard for us to visualise the, well... *visual* part of it all when coding, so we have to test things over and over and over and over to *see* if they *look* the way we want them to look.
For us, how it looks it often more important than how it works.
Yep.
2dt wrote: Thanks for your input. It sounds to me based on your info that text scripting is much more a psychological barrier than technical one.
Nope. Not just a psychological barrier.

Artists think in a fundamentally different way than programmers. It is the very act of putting together logic formulas that proves difficult. We are literally messy creators. We sketch loosely, sometimes or often with no plan, lay down lines to see if we like the aesthetic and then erase them and repeat until we like what we see. We use a lot of intuition in our creative processing, rather than using a lot of rules. Left brain versus right brain thinking. (Even though the biology of that is a myth - just using it as an example.)

As an artist who has had multiple programming classes, I can tell you that my failing is NEVER the scripting or syntax. It is constructing the formulas the feed inputs into and out of functions, and creating logic chains. I can often create programs that have no syntax errors and compile fine, but don't do what I want them to because my LOGIC screwed up. Somewhere in setting up the list of "do this, then this, because this", it all goes to hell. (I did poorly creating proof theorems in geometry class as well - I knew where I needed to end up, I just couldn't break down the steps needed to get there in enough detail.)

EDIT: For reference, I've studied C++, C#, and mel script, and could pass any written test over syntax given by professors, and can read code just fine. But I would often fail practical exams calling for me to create a program to do a specific task - nearly always because when I was making an INTUITIVE LEAP somewhere in my list of logic steps, and as we know, computers can't make intuitive leaps, so those gaps in the chain would derail the whole shebang. Studying more didn't really help, because syntax and scripting weren't my problems. :(

So artists using a WYSIWYG system need it to handle all the background logic for them. Most can learn the actual scripting or programming languages just fine - it is the THINKING like a programmer that is a giant hurdle. Artists are just not deterministic thinkers.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#20 Post by DaFool »

I think most of the indie tools revolution in the past few years empower the artists. And nothing similar to empower programmers, besides overused sprite packs.

What used to cost $5000 for a custom game engine can now be had for free. But in the meantime, I've still had to face bills of thousands of dollars just for art assets.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#21 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

DaFool wrote:I think most of the indie tools revolution in the past few years empower the artists. And nothing similar to empower programmers, besides overused sprite packs.

What used to cost $5000 for a custom game engine can now be had for free. But in the meantime, I've still had to face bills of thousands of dollars just for art assets.
True. Artists definitely have the advantage in that aspect.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#22 Post by DaFool »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
DaFool wrote:I think most of the indie tools revolution in the past few years empower the artists. And nothing similar to empower programmers, besides overused sprite packs.

What used to cost $5000 for a custom game engine can now be had for free. But in the meantime, I've still had to face bills of thousands of dollars just for art assets.
True. Artists definitely have the advantage in that aspect.
I know I'm going off-topic here, but if you're an artist type with access to free tools, you can immediately make an impressive kickstarter and get the project rolling. The funds that come in are essentially the payment to work on art. Whereas a programmer still has to commission concept art and could make what could be near-final game mechanics with programmer art but nobody is impressed because it doesn't look sellable even though all that will be needed is to swap with final quality textures.

Now I'm saying this partly because I'm envious, but also because -- now related to the topic at hand -- I've taught Construct2 to my artist colleagues (seeing it as the easiest game engine to dev with) and I felt like I have given them so much power already. If I were in their shoes I would have released something like Dragon's Crown or Muramasa already, all in HTML5, because they have the skill for that.

Even though I've gotten used to commissioning art I keep on going back to want to draw by myself because that's the only way I can have total say over the final vision of what I wanted to make.

Anyways, I can't wait for the EVEN plugin for Construct2 and have nvl sequences talking about valhalla + Odin Sphere gameplay... that would be the most epic thing ever.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#23 Post by 2dt »

Boy this is going to be a long post...
Arowana wrote:This looks like a really cool project, and I would love to see it realized! I mostly just want something with Renpy-like functionality that can easily port to other platforms (iOS yesss), but your emphasis on animations is most definitely welcome.

For essential VN features, ones off the top of my head would include:
  • skipping and auto modes (super important!)
  • rollback or text history feature (also pretty important imo)
  • good sound/music support (maybe also support for voice acting?)
  • persistent data (maybe also multi-game persistence?)
  • easy to customize in-game GUI (not essential, but nice)
Though you’ve probably already thought of those. ;)

However, since the project already sounds so ambitious, I hope you don’t get too caught up in adding bunches of new features/fancy visual editor/etc. All those things sound great, but hey, even just completing a framework with the features you’ve already planned would be pretty great too. So best of luck with everything, and I look forward to seeing what you do for NaNo. :)

As for the barriers to programming issue, I think one of the major ones is obtuse, scattered, or incomplete documentation (you can see some of the qualms people have with the Renpy documentation here). Clear, accessible docs with lots of concrete examples would be a great help.
Thanks a ton. Just the kind of info I was looking for.
  • Skipping and auto modes are implemented. I went to painstaking effort to make sure auto worked superbly, and that you'd have the ability to both rewind and fast-forward.
  • Music and sound support are there as well, both in their own categories, so volume controls of both are separate.
  • Save data requirements is something that will vary from game to game, so it will be up to developers to control their save system. I will, however, implement a very generic, lowest common denominator save system for those who just need basic visual novel multi-route pathing.
  • Thanks to the multiple progressions and per model event handlers, it will be very easy to create and modify UI.
Thanks for bringing up the documentation issue. Once I have the engine published, I plan to create several video tutorials going in depth with how to do everything in EVEN.
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
Deji wrote: Artists like me are visually oriented people, we think in images, not in code, like programmers or words like writers, so it's hard for us to visualise the, well... *visual* part of it all when coding, so we have to test things over and over and over and over to *see* if they *look* the way we want them to look.
For us, how it looks it often more important than how it works.
Yep.
2dt wrote: Thanks for your input. It sounds to me based on your info that text scripting is much more a psychological barrier than technical one.
Nope. Not just a psychological barrier.

Artists think in a fundamentally different way than programmers. It is the very act of putting together logic formulas that proves difficult. We are literally messy creators. We sketch loosely, sometimes or often with no plan, lay down lines to see if we like the aesthetic and then erase them and repeat until we like what we see. We use a lot of intuition in our creative processing, rather than using a lot of rules. Left brain versus right brain thinking. (Even though the biology of that is a myth - just using it as an example.)

As an artist who has had multiple programming classes, I can tell you that my failing is NEVER the scripting or syntax. It is constructing the formulas the feed inputs into and out of functions, and creating logic chains. I can often create programs that have no syntax errors and compile fine, but don't do what I want them to because my LOGIC screwed up. Somewhere in setting up the list of "do this, then this, because this", it all goes to hell. (I did poorly creating proof theorems in geometry class as well - I knew where I needed to end up, I just couldn't break down the steps needed to get there in enough detail.)

EDIT: For reference, I've studied C++, C#, and mel script, and could pass any written test over syntax given by professors, and can read code just fine. But I would often fail practical exams calling for me to create a program to do a specific task - nearly always because when I was making an INTUITIVE LEAP somewhere in my list of logic steps, and as we know, computers can't make intuitive leaps, so those gaps in the chain would derail the whole shebang. Studying more didn't really help, because syntax and scripting weren't my problems. :(

So artists using a WYSIWYG system need it to handle all the background logic for them. Most can learn the actual scripting or programming languages just fine - it is the THINKING like a programmer that is a giant hurdle. Artists are just not deterministic thinkers.
Superb info. Thank you so much for taking the time to write up this explanation. If I could trouble you again to answer another question...

The scripting language I have in mind is be something along the lines of:

CHARACTER moves to (xy-coordinates or graph phrases, like "near left") very fast.
CHARACTER fades out, pauses, fades in.
OTHER_CHARACTER says "W-wait! I don't think I'm ready for this!", pauses, thinks "On the other hand, maybe I am...".
>>>Next Page

Do you think artistic types would be able to work with this kind of scripting? Especially if their typing changes the scene preview in real-time? Like I mentioned above, it's literally like screenwriting, as far removed from f(x,y){function gibberish} as I could make it while still retaining a high degree of control.
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
DaFool wrote:I think most of the indie tools revolution in the past few years empower the artists. And nothing similar to empower programmers, besides overused sprite packs.

What used to cost $5000 for a custom game engine can now be had for free. But in the meantime, I've still had to face bills of thousands of dollars just for art assets.
True. Artists definitely have the advantage in that aspect.
I think talented artists have something really special. We hear about the "starving artist" phenomenon all the time, but I feel like if they looked at the right places, say, Lemmasoft for example, they'd find themselves to be quite the valuable commodity.
DaFool wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
DaFool wrote:I think most of the indie tools revolution in the past few years empower the artists. And nothing similar to empower programmers, besides overused sprite packs.

What used to cost $5000 for a custom game engine can now be had for free. But in the meantime, I've still had to face bills of thousands of dollars just for art assets.
True. Artists definitely have the advantage in that aspect.
I know I'm going off-topic here, but if you're an artist type with access to free tools, you can immediately make an impressive kickstarter and get the project rolling. The funds that come in are essentially the payment to work on art. Whereas a programmer still has to commission concept art and could make what could be near-final game mechanics with programmer art but nobody is impressed because it doesn't look sellable even though all that will be needed is to swap with final quality textures.

Now I'm saying this partly because I'm envious, but also because -- now related to the topic at hand -- I've taught Construct2 to my artist colleagues (seeing it as the easiest game engine to dev with) and I felt like I have given them so much power already. If I were in their shoes I would have released something like Dragon's Crown or Muramasa already, all in HTML5, because they have the skill for that.

Even though I've gotten used to commissioning art I keep on going back to want to draw by myself because that's the only way I can have total say over the final vision of what I wanted to make.

Anyways, I can't wait for the EVEN plugin for Construct2 and have nvl sequences talking about valhalla + Odin Sphere gameplay... that would be the most epic thing ever.
You hit it right on the mark with how nobody's impressed with a programmer's efforts simply because he doesn't have the art goods yet. I've always been very jealous of skilled artists simply because I feel like if they really applied themselves, they could do amazing things like you said. Which is what drove me to learn to draw as well. ;)

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#24 Post by Arowana »

Thanks for the info - everything sounds very promising! :D
Music and sound support are there as well, both in their own categories, so volume controls of both are separate.
Will it be possible to create and overlay multiple sound channels? Like, for example, if you wanted to have a voice track, some background noise, and music all playing simultaneously?
Save data requirements is something that will vary from game to game, so it will be up to developers to control their save system. I will, however, implement a very generic, lowest common denominator save system for those who just need basic visual novel multi-route pathing.
Cool, I was thinking specifically along the lines of having unlockable CG/music/achievement galleries, or even being able to share info between a series of games, like what Renpy has here. I don't know how often the multi-game feature is used, but a lot of people definitely use galleries.
Thanks for bringing up the documentation issue. Once I have the engine published, I plan to create several video tutorials going in depth with how to do everything in EVEN.
Sounds great! I'm admittedly one of those people who doesn't have the patience to load/sit through videos, so I hope you'll have some written docs and tutorials to accompany those as well. ;)
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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#25 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

2dt wrote: Superb info. Thank you so much for taking the time to write up this explanation. If I could trouble you again to answer another question...

The scripting language I have in mind is be something along the lines of:

CHARACTER moves to (xy-coordinates or graph phrases, like "near left") very fast.
CHARACTER fades out, pauses, fades in.
OTHER_CHARACTER says "W-wait! I don't think I'm ready for this!", pauses, thinks "On the other hand, maybe I am...".
>>>Next Page

Do you think artistic types would be able to work with this kind of scripting? Especially if their typing changes the scene preview in real-time? Like I mentioned above, it's literally like screenwriting, as far removed from f(x,y){function gibberish} as I could make it while still retaining a high degree of control.
I think so. It is fairly simple, a lot like the RenPy scripting language.
2dt wrote: You hit it right on the mark with how nobody's impressed with a programmer's efforts simply because he doesn't have the art goods yet. I've always been very jealous of skilled artists simply because I feel like if they really applied themselves, they could do amazing things like you said. Which is what drove me to learn to draw as well. ;)
2dt wrote:I think talented artists have something really special. We hear about the "starving artist" phenomenon all the time, but I feel like if they looked at the right places, say, Lemmasoft for example, they'd find themselves to be quite the valuable commodity.
You realize, the problem, of course, is that most people on Lemmasoft are working on their own ideas. Sure, we'd be better served by teaming up the programmers with the artists, but do you work on the artist's project, or the programmer's project? If if you decide to swap work, most people aren't keen on putting their own ideas on the backburner for 2+ years.

I will admit to being insanely jealous of my programming professor's skill. I spent 30 hours putting together a program to generate random 3D mazes with unique architecture and traps compiled from pre-generated art assets, and still had some odd problems like the corner pieces sometimes randomly being turned the wrong direction (but rarely). He looks at my code, sits down, starts from scratch, and has a better program than mine in 15 minutes, with no bugs, and less than a third of the lines I used. :shock:

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#26 Post by Obscura »

Thanks for sharing news about your very cool project with us!

The two top things I'd love to see:

1) speech bubbles, allowing you to put dialogue at the top of the screen, close to the faces, to eliminate the need for a side sprite. currently my AWESOME programmer Saguaro rigged my game so it has speech bubbles at the top, but it required a lot of tricks that requires fiddling with other GUI elements in awkward ways

2) iOS portability/compatibility

Really, that's pretty much it.
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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#27 Post by 2dt »

Arowana wrote:Thanks for the info - everything sounds very promising! :D
Music and sound support are there as well, both in their own categories, so volume controls of both are separate.
Will it be possible to create and overlay multiple sound channels? Like, for example, if you wanted to have a voice track, some background noise, and music all playing simultaneously?
Save data requirements is something that will vary from game to game, so it will be up to developers to control their save system. I will, however, implement a very generic, lowest common denominator save system for those who just need basic visual novel multi-route pathing.
Cool, I was thinking specifically along the lines of having unlockable CG/music/achievement galleries, or even being able to share info between a series of games, like what Renpy has here. I don't know how often the multi-game feature is used, but a lot of people definitely use galleries.
Thanks for bringing up the documentation issue. Once I have the engine published, I plan to create several video tutorials going in depth with how to do everything in EVEN.
Sounds great! I'm admittedly one of those people who doesn't have the patience to load/sit through videos, so I hope you'll have some written docs and tutorials to accompany those as well. ;)
Yes. You will be able to play tracks simultaneously.

Unlockable CGs and stuff are standard VN fare and I will support them. The multi-game feature is a bit beyond the scope of my project at the moment, so I won't implementing that initially. I can't even start thinking about multi-game when there isn't even ONE using it yet. lol.

As for documentation, I gotcha. I'll do both. Video just seems easier, so I'll probably do that first.
LateWhiteRabbit wrote: You realize, the problem, of course, is that most people on Lemmasoft are working on their own ideas. Sure, we'd be better served by teaming up the programmers with the artists, but do you work on the artist's project, or the programmer's project? If if you decide to swap work, most people aren't keen on putting their own ideas on the backburner for 2+ years.

I will admit to being insanely jealous of my programming professor's skill. I spent 30 hours putting together a program to generate random 3D mazes with unique architecture and traps compiled from pre-generated art assets, and still had some odd problems like the corner pieces sometimes randomly being turned the wrong direction (but rarely). He looks at my code, sits down, starts from scratch, and has a better program than mine in 15 minutes, with no bugs, and less than a third of the lines I used. :shock:
Interesting. From my experience, the artistic types I've worked with were much more interested in drawing and designing than they were taking the lead on a project. Of course, they have their own ideas for projects that they want done, but they were always eager to work on other people's projects as well, especially if it meant getting to show other people their artwork. And ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it.

As such, I was always under the impression that what mattered the most to artists was being able to show their work to others, not so much whether what they were working on was "their original idea" or not.

Not disagreeing with you or anything. Just interesting to see different perspectives.
Obscura wrote:Thanks for sharing news about your very cool project with us!

The two top things I'd love to see:

1) speech bubbles, allowing you to put dialogue at the top of the screen, close to the faces, to eliminate the need for a side sprite. currently my AWESOME programmer Saguaro rigged my game so it has speech bubbles at the top, but it required a lot of tricks that requires fiddling with other GUI elements in awkward ways

2) iOS portability/compatibility

Really, that's pretty much it.
There are lots of ways to do speech bubbles, some much easier than others. There could be just plain text on top of the character (no bubble), there could be text on top of a bubble with rounded corners and an arrow, and their could be speech bubbles in the traditional comic sense, where the speech is inside a circle with an arrow pointing to the character. There's also the matter of whether the shape of the bubble expands to encompass the text when there's too much text, or if the text shrinks to fit within the bubble.

Could you give me an idea (or screenshot) what exactly kind of speech bubble you're going for?

No matter what though, you'll be happy to know that one of the easiest things for EVEN to do is position text where you want it. When designing the engine, I realized there would often be a need to animate text in certain parts of the screen, and so you are given absolute freedom in:
  • Where the text is placed.
  • How many individual texts you want (all of them have their own content and animated separately)
  • How fast/slow the text is animated
  • Stuttering the animation (as in "Must... (pause) Speak... (pause) Faster... (pause)")
  • How the animating text eases itself (for example: Speak REALLY FAST.... then suddenly words start to apppeeeeear muuuucchhh slooooooowweeerrr)
  • How the text moves, zooms, rotates, fades, tints, etc... You can even get the text to automatically follow wherever a character moves.
And yes, there will be iOS compatibility (though not initially, simply because I don't have the tools right now, but a little bit after general release).

Please give me more info on how you want to use speech bubble and I'll see what's possible, or if I should build in more use cases.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#28 Post by DaFool »

Regarding Construct2 integration, since the action stages will be in separate layouts from the VN stages, perhaps the save system in the VN portion can already take care of the save system of the whole game?

For example, while playing an action stage there is no need to save, but once an endpoint trigger is reach it goes to a VN layout that asks "Would you like to save your game?" and it only needs to remember the variables pertaining to the particular story branch while ignoring the variables used in the action gameplay sequences.

Perhaps it's straightforward to call up a VN window even within the action stage but then that goes into inventory and all that... much more complicated.

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#29 Post by wulfae »

While the GUI interface was pretty cool, I also really like being able to just read through my script easily. What would be helpful, and perhaps an easier first step, is a 'live feed' of just what you're programming, or something that you could update in the corner of your screen. I admit I haven't got very far in the actual art process of my game, but I am worried about keeping everything straight. It would be wonderful if I could set up a scene, type stuff up, and reload my render to see how it looks and plays in the particular screen I'm looking at. Maybe ren'py can do that, but it more seems like it makes a game for you to play through, which could take a little while to get to the exact screen I want.

I guess the solution is to make a chapter list a the beginning, haha. Why didn't I do that earlier?

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Re: Essential features for EVEN: a new visual novel engine

#30 Post by Ophelia »

wulfae wrote:While the GUI interface was pretty cool, I also really like being able to just read through my script easily. What would be helpful, and perhaps an easier first step, is a 'live feed' of just what you're programming, or something that you could update in the corner of your screen. I admit I haven't got very far in the actual art process of my game, but I am worried about keeping everything straight. It would be wonderful if I could set up a scene, type stuff up, and reload my render to see how it looks and plays in the particular screen I'm looking at. Maybe ren'py can do that, but it more seems like it makes a game for you to play through, which could take a little while to get to the exact screen I want.

I guess the solution is to make a chapter list a the beginning, haha. Why didn't I do that earlier?
Well, the recent update included the shift+r function, which reloads the open game so that you don't have to launch it again. Definitely much more convenient.

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