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The biggest weakness of (military) humanoid mecha is that they are essentially entirely made of dead weight.

Most of the space/mass is taken up by the big legs, which are essentially just for moving. Give it rotor blades, jets, wheel, or tank treads, and it'll move faster over a wider variety of terrain with less footprint.

The big arms are (barely) useful for hand-to-hand combat, but dead weight when the mecha uses guns.

The torso and head contain the cockpit (which is actually useful), the energy source/battery/fuel tanks (which could be reduced in size if some of the dead weight is lost), and more dead weight.

Any armor plating needs to be distributed across the whole body, which is again dead weight when compared to a more compact mecha.

Take the gun from an average gun-using mecha, attach a small cockpit and some rotor blades, and you've got as much firepower and more maneuverability as a fraction of the cost.

It might not be entirely practical to do so now, but in the future it may be better suited to such things.

1.) If you think about it in terms of a large humanoid suit, you don't have to worry too much about heavy weapons. If you create a weapon large enough to be used by a mech, then chances are the size of the shells with be enough to take down most weapons.
2.) Yeah you can't really get away from the terrain, but really there is only so much that -can- traverse that. Many of our current weapons obviously can't as well, everything you build is usually dedicated to a certain task and a mech would be no different.
3.) If you increase the overall mobility of it then you make it harder to hit as well, if you see Code Geass the basic unit of a mech in that is a more practical example. Rather then employing feet, they have wheels attached to mix flexibility and mobility.
4.) You may be able to cripple it that way, but due to the size it would still have enough movement to become a threat. Unlike most current weapons that are mostly down for the count immediately.

@Wintermoon

In my opinion the -dead weight- gives one major thing to it that something smaller doesn't give, protection against a critical hit! If you head dead weight, you have parts to sacrifice to take a hit. If you have something more compact, with he advances in technology making dodging much harder...your essentially a one hit kill.

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Let's say I have two flying guns to your one humanoid mecha. You'll need at least two hits to take them both out. I only need one hit - to your cockpit or to your weapon system - to disable you. I also have twice the firepower, better maneuverability, better armor, and I present a smaller target. And both of my flying guns together have a fraction of the production and maintenance cost of your one mecha.

Your automatically assuming your weapons have better everything, aren't you? Whenever you compact something there is less room for versatility, in that sense the humanoid would have the advantage of possibility equipping itself with the right weapons to counteract your own before the battle, since very rarely will you go in without intelligence. With targeting technology where it is, the size of the target really doesn't matter much.

Flying guns would not be cheap to keep in 'hovering', due to the weight they would still be using if you were using a weapon made originally for something the size of a mecha. You would need some very expensive stuff to keep that going, unless of course you meant in the style of a classic fighter...in which it's pointless to say your compacting the mecha.

Twice the fire power does not always equal better fire power either. There's also no way to say that just making something smaller makes it cheaper, since the intricacies of small but still equally effective production materials carries a heavy cost in itself. Unless of course you plan to actually make them cheap, in which you would not have better firepower/maneuverability/armor. All of that costs money no matter the size, and if your using it chances are they are.

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My "flying guns" are essentially mecha with the dead weight removed, which leaves the mecha's gun, propulsion jets, the cockpit, a power source strong enough to power what's left, and enough armor to protect what's left. My flying guns don't contain any technology that your mecha doesn't already contain, there's just less of it. (Don't like that they're flying? Live in a world where there are no flying mecha, no helicopters, and no airplanes? Put them on tank treads. The tactical situation remains the same).

You say your mecha has multiple weapons, and can pick which one to take along to a fight? I also have multiple weapons. They can all fly. I don't have to choose; I can take along all of them at once. (Or, if you really feel my flying cockpit is the limiting factor, I can use a single cockpit and attach all of the weapons at once. Or I can make a modular system that only allows me to take one weapon, same as the mecha.)

In a typical mecha-with-guns anime, the guns are the actual weapons. The mecha are just a way to get these weapons into battle. There are cheaper, more effective ways to get these guns into battle now with today's technology, nevermind the future.

Well apart from the spoilers in this topic (dammit! Cruncyroll removed Gundam 00 before it heated up, now it's all been spoiled for me ), all this talk just confirms how humanoid mecha just won't happen.

Another huge con about humanoid mechs is the joints - joints that just couldn't work (in the original Gundam, they added magnetic coating to reduce friction...) plus a simple rocket hit would take it out (leading onto the whole mobility thing). Although I wouldn't give size too much of a fuss, the Mobile Suits in Gundam have been gradually getting smaller and smaller, take a look at V Gundam or F91.

Say, Wintermoon, what do you mean by your flying guns? From your description, it sounds a bit like the Lion from SRW: Divine Wars, link below.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/srw/og1/dcam-004.htm

But to add to the scenario you guys have added:

Okay, 2 against 1, flying versus ground mech. Let's make this a bit more realistic, say, where would the battle take place?
If this was in the desert, I reckon the "flying guns" would have the advantage, whereas the ground mech would have no coverage (basically a sitting duck) - unless it has a sniper/camouflage/smoke dispensers.
However, in urban combat, I'd say the ground mech has the advantage, if you think of something like Gasaraki's mech. It has plenty of coverage and can easily maneuver inbetween buildings.

Now onto the next issue, combat time.
Time will always be a huge factor in combat, as reinforcements can arrive and bring supplies. Now the "flying guns" would be at a disadvantage, simply due to the fuel needed to keep something airbourne as compare to something that can stand. Also, what about refuelling? If your "flying guns" are similar to planes, you'd need to fly back to re-supply before leading another attack, in which case, the advantage would have been lost.
However, on the ground mech terms, this is it's advantage. The mech wouldn't ideally go out alone. There would be supply trucks to accompany the mech, so if you think of something like Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket, the ground mech can stash weapons in buildings/trucks to save going back to base to re-fuel.

Also, how would they fight? A "flying gun" only has a fixed/limited firing scope, so it would need to fly around to get it's target in sight, right?
Well a ground mech should simply be able to swivel round and aim at the airbourne threat.

But I suppose, realistically, humanoid robots are useless, and very expensive to produce.

No it doesn't, tracks give it a much more considerable disadvantage. Tracks have no where near the speed capabilities as something flying, and would essentially be the same living target as the humanoid mecha with the exception of being worse fighters.

If your "flying guns" utilize the same technology, don't say they have stronger of everything. You are contradicting your own statements. If you remove the dead weight, there is still less room for adaptability. Unlike a humanoid mecha, which has the ability to quickl and easily switch out and change weapons, your flying guns which have been most likely stripped of that ability as more of a floating gun platform can easily be out gunned with the right equipment. That is the main success of a humanoid mecha, flexibility!



Then you just removed your 2 against 1 scenario, your own argument, and made it in to a situation where you can move in as many as you want. If you remove the humanoid aspect, you must remove the hands, which takes away your weapons ability to switch the weapons without outside help. That now requires it either return to a base, or have someone replace the weapon for it. While the mecha still has the ability to quickly change out weapons. Attaching all the weapons is impractical, as the weight would keep it from being able to fly, as well as increasing the cost of the weapon and removing your idea of "cheap".

Let's say you do have ones of all types, well what happens if the ones specializing in taking the mecha's down are taken out in a surprise attack? I've already mentioned why the modular system wouldn't work too well, so now you may be left with nothing more then anti-infantry weapons. Unlike your weapons, if you happened to take out the mecha's holding a certain weapon the others could easily pick up the slack by changing it out.



The guns are usually also extremely large, just adapting that in to a smaller frame leaves it a pretty decent sized target. There may be a cheaper way to get it in to battle, but the cheaper ways are less effective. Your taking away the flexibility of the weapons all for the sake of price (which may be practical, but it wouldn't beat something that can use it's full potential is my point).

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I suppose what makes the idea of a humanoid war robot appealing is the adaptability of the human form. No other creature on earth is able to survive and flourish in so many different environments.
The idea would be that a humanoid war machine would share this adaptability, thanks to its ability to do so many different things just by adding different "tools."

However, as a human wouldn't stand much chance against a lion in single unarmed combat, neither would a humanoid mech do very well against a machine created for the specific purpose of killing shit in its own specific environment.
SEED actually referenced this impracticality in that while the humanoid form was good for a lot of things, when it came across new enemies in difficult environments it was at a severe disadvantage. [the desert and ocean scenarios in the first series.]

The advantage it would have though is the same a human would have against the lion when provided with proper support and the right kind of big gun. The humanoid mech, just like the natural human form has potential as an "all-arounder." It's "adequate" to "good" at a whole lot of things, as opposed to being "expert" at any one thing.

The issue of expense is almost negligible. As the technology to make that concept feasible comes into play, the actual cost of production will get considerably cheaper as years go on.
Shortly after the Wrights' bi-plane was made and the concept was applied to military purpose, the idea of something like an F-16 would have been unreasonable because it would be technologically too difficult and far too expensive to make, and initially would be at a disadvantage to a larger number of earlier model weapons.
However, technology advances and those originally unthinkable concepts become rather economical.

Would something like a Gundam be reasonable and effective now, with current technology? No way, but that doesn't disqualify it from being a viable concept sometime in the future with further research and advances in robotics and weaponry.
After all, weapons for a man are much cheaper to produce than a large piloted weapon. If the concept could be applied to something bigger - a rifle for a mecha would be cheaper to produce than a piloted gun platform. The only issue remaining is seeing that the mecha doesn't get obliterated, just the same as seeing that a footsoldier doesn't get shot and killed.

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First off, it's an anime people. XD Mechas exist because they're
a) cool
b) they blow stuff up
c) cool

I think science is pretty irrelivant in a discussion about mechas vs conventional weapons. Mecha animes have never really been about science in the first place. But if you're going to have a scientifical discussion about it, I think mechas would come out as the far superior option in a zero-G environment compared to a star fighter. On the ground, the odds would be more even.

Mechas would be a far more useful tool to use in space than on the ground. The fact that they have limbs would allow them to make repairs and perform maintance duty of larger capital ships and even construct weapons satelites and gun platforms. Not only that, but they would be much more maneuverable, allowing them to fly straight up to capital ships and blast weapons turrents, engines, and other external systems at point blank range. (and even their main bridges if somebody was idiotic enough to place a plane of glass as the only defense. -_-;)

On the ground, there's the problem of balance. The biggest problem with a mecha is that they could easily tip over if they happened to trip on something.

But too much shouldn't be made of the scientifical and technological aspect of mechas. The entire point of mechas is that they're cool to watch, the laws of physics and science be damned.

In fact, mecha animes have always been about political and social commentary rather than a technological outlook of the future. (I'm refering to real mechas series, not super robot) So I think that whatever discussion that may exist on the creation of mechas should probably be political in nature. In fact, I think there would be some quite interesting political reasons why mechas would prove to be superior alternative to conventional weapons.

-First off, it cuts down on causalties. The biggest reason why industrialized democracies are so hesitant to engage in prolonged wars against powerful foes is precisely for the fact that public opinion hates seeing causalties. But with the creation of a mecha that can be piloted by a single trained soldier, we essentially replace an entire battalion of soldiers for a single soldier with equivalant firepower. This would allow industrialized democracies to persue far more aggresive foreign policies without fear of public lashback. In any case, any sort of universal conscription for wars would be rendered obsolete, since it would probably take years of training to be able to pilot a mecha, and you wouldn't need hundreds of thousands of raw recruits to fight wars either. This may even prompt wars between rival democracies. Instead of two armies of 5000 souls fighting, it'd be replaced to simply 50 mechas. Even if everybody dies, that's only a maximum of 50 causalties.

-Next, it changes the composition of militaries. The vast amount of technological and scientifical support required for creating and upgrading mechas would essentially make the military 90% technical engineers. Thus, I figure the government will increasily add more budgetary expenses for purchasing technology from third party corporations. Not only that, but they would probably start paying ridiculous sums of money to entice professionals to hold "tours of duty" in the military, ie: develop new weapons systems. In any case, the very idea of serving the military will probably change from fighting in the frontlines to working in a government workshop or a lab.

However, there are also huge cons why mechas should never be developed.

-First, it throws the balance of power to hell. Every single army on the world will essentially be rendered obsolete with the creation of a mecha, leading to an increased chance of a raising powers overthrowing super powers. For example, the standing military might of the United States would instantly be destroyed if the United States, Great Britain, France, China, Russia, and Iran each constructed one mecha. Whatever strength we had with our armed forces will be rendered totally useless against such a super weapon, and would essentially make us all equal military powers. This will probably throw the current political and social landscape to hell and spark wars of gain throughout the globe.

-Second, it leads to a burgeoning of PMCs. Gundam 00 already caught on to this one. Since it'll take decades to train soldiers to be proficiant with mechas, it'll become far more efficant to merely hire professional soldiers for hire who are already expert pilots. This will lead to an entire new class of workers who will need the continuation of warfare to make a living.

-Third, mechas are utterly useless against guerilla warfare and terrorism.

-Fourth, all my arguments in this post ignore the existance of nuclear weapons.

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Samu - Did it occur to you that we might be having this discussion not out of any sort of deep-seeded desire to argue the practicality of the thing, but maybe because -- We find it fun?

I know I do. Science-fiction is fun, partially because everything in good Science-fiction is a possibility in the future.
So therefore it amuses me to discuss the practical and not-so practical applications of fictional technology.

Like Mechas.

[And honestly, while Gundams may not be practical, I think there's use to be had for Veritechs/Valkyries. >.>]

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But I couldn't join in the fun because you guys were talking about science! You people will soon know how much of a distaste I have for scientists! :3

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Well I actually have downplayed the scientific aspects for a more functionality approach. But yes, it's kind of fun to ponder how things could possibly turn out and of course mechs are a possibility. I wouldn't want to see mechs pulled out of science fiction and anime just because they aren't practical, I love watching them blow things up just as much as the next person. I'd just like to see where a discussion on the real life possibilities could take us

o.o And what's with the distaste for scientists? What did they ever do besides develop harmful toxins launched from missiles!?

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And a few harmless unthinkable crimes against humanity.

They never hurt you, Samu!

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One can think of scenarios where a humanoid form would have advantages:

- Getting around the rough terrain of Helmajistan Afghanistan, where wheels/treads might not work... but why two legs, and not 6? And why arms?
- For minimal reaction time... the premise of Heinlein's Mobile Infantry.
- Maybe something like Terminators, where the goal is to infiltrate.

But fundamentally, the humanoid form seem overkill for military use. I mean, the human arm has 22 degrees of freedom. But if you want a weapon to be able to be able to cover the whole sphere, you need only 2 degrees of freedom... azimuth and elevation, in a turret configuration.

That's 20 extra degrees of freedom. Seems cool, but that's an awful lot that can go wrong when the crud hits the fan. Especially when one of the trend seems to be towards vertical launchers, which require 0 degrees of freedom from the launching platform. And a VLS gives an awful lot of flexibility... the Mark 41 VLS can carry: "the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (RIM-162 ESSM) naval self defense, short range SAM, RIM-66 Standard missile medium range / block IV extended range SAM/SSM, SM-3 anti-ballistic missile, VLA (RUM-139 vertical launch ASROC) anti-submarine missile with Mk-46 torpedo warhead, an advanced version of the earlier ASROC (RUR-5), and the Tomahawk cruise missile (long range strike)." (wikipedia)

The VLS is cool. Basically, instead of aiming at the target, we fire a rocket straight up, and have it maneuver until it's aimed right.

You also have to worry about protecting the platform. Remember, the amount of armor you need goes up with the area of the surface of the platform... for something like a robot, with relatively narrow arms and legs, you're going to need a decent amount of protection for very little space.

Another problem is one of size. At least on the ground, you want to stay low to avoid detection. An Abrams tank is 8 feet tall, and can hide behind small hills. A humanoid robot, standing up, might be visible for miles around.

Finally, a hand is a lousy connection to a weapon. IIRC, most big guns are electrically fired- a button is pressed, a spark happens, and boom. Compare that to the "gundam gun"... the pilot closes a switch, which causes a finger to move, which pulls a trigger, which closes another switch, which finally gets around to firing a gun. Yet more to go wrong, and the gun itself might need to be protected, which requires more armor plate.

Again, none of this is unsolvable. But it would require increased cost relative to existing designs, and so an enemy using more traditional hardware could outnumber you by a significant amount.

Reply to a new post: Samu--- why would a mecha in space need feet? Dexter, the new canadian robot, doesn't have any.

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One day I'm off from the forum and look what we got here. The discussion has grown into a heat battle. Here's my thought :

MAKE IT COOL OR REALISTIC?
When we're making a movie (or manga or anything), it doesn't need to be extremely realistic. We only need it to be cool. The audience only need it to be realistic enough to be enjoyed. If we want precisely realisticly realistic, then we won't have a charming charismatic main character that able to blast an entire enemies squardon or somehow 'magically' turn the tide of battle in a single mecha.
It won't be cool if our mystrious masked guy got picked out by a sniper right at the moment he stepped out his mecha cockpit.

WHY WE LOVE HUMANIOD MECHA?
Now, about why we can't use humanoid mecha in war. Don't get me wrong first, I LOVE mecha. They are my passion. Like I said, mecha have their use (only in different field). Why humanoid mecha is cool? Because they resemble human. God resemble human. That's how we connect HIM with us. The same with mecha. Efficient-wise, human figure is the worst. AVERAGE. That is right, human figure only scores average in most field, but not in battle.

IT'S ALL ABOUT PRICE
About 2 on 1? OK, let say to make one gundam, you need 1000 credit. But the author never kind enough to make their rivals. I mean if you convert that 1000 credit into the most advanced 'conventional' unit, what will you get? Let's say I get four to five of "very advanced" fighters. Let good pilots ride them and watch them rocks. What I want to say is instead of building several good humanoid mecha, which is expensive and hard to maintain, let's build several hundred good old tanks, jets, and infantries.

WHO NEED A HAND?
Who need hands to use a variety of weapon and able to change them in the heat of battle? Hard points is all you need. Fighters/Jets can change their equipment according to their missions, no? With detachable hard points, you could detach unnedded equipment. Well may be you couldn't change equipment on the fly, while having hands means you could just pick up a dropped weapons.
BUT, having hands means :
1. more moving parts and complex operations only to fire a gun, resulting less accuraccy, wearing more parts, more possibility for a jam/failure, etc.
2. it's possible to accidentally drop your weapons
3. you could lost a hand/arm, meaning you can't fire from only two possible hands (except if you make a mecha with 9 hands?)

SIZE DOES MATTER
The bigger you are, the more excellent target you are, because you easier to shoot at and drawing more attention. The bigger you are, the more likely you will be stealth (a crucial factor nowadays), the more you have to be armored, and more sluggish you are.

MECHA IN WAR
I think the best use of humanoid mecha in war is the deploy them in CQB or in urban warfare, where tanks can't excel and infantry reign. So mecha is not used to replace tanks and jets, instead they used to secure tanks in urban environment (infantries killer). BTW, I use this mecha concept in my latest manga.
Because mecha is used in tight urban environment, I'm not talking a 40 meters walking behemot here, instead just 3-10 meters single pilot mecha (may be more to powered suit). They prone to sniper shot due to their armor, able to bring heavier weaponry to kill light vehicle and infantries (but don't expect any heat-seeking missiles or 120mm smoothbore cannon), more situational awareness, and higher mobility). They also small enough to use buildings as covers.
Since it is a single pilot and mecha operation will be very complex, AI is absolutely needed. A good network and constant maintance and logisitic is also needed (but it is not a problem since these mechas are intended to be used in a friendly urban enviroment). In the open, they can be easily toasted by fighters and tanks so mecha is not almighty.

CONCLUSION
I think that's all. The rest I want to say already said by others (thanks PyTom).
I worship robot. I love them and I can't stand the idea if I must stop drawing mecha action manga. I don't care if they are not realistic, we like them; case closed.