Non-anime, non-romance VN?

[Fawn]

The style won't matter if it's a good game overall (unless the artwork is so awful or plain that it distracts from the game, of course). It'd be nice to see some more games that are more like the old adventure games in a newer style.

Your artist is very talented! I'm interested in how she'll draw sprites and such. Good pick.

[wingzofdarkness]

@SinusPi: I would call it anime. Though it is not a style, people tend to generalize it as so. Therefore, to not complicate and have misunderstandings in conversations, I would use "anime style". And I agree with all of the callings above.

However, if you want to be logical with this...
Japanese cartoon character(s)/illustration/drawing/etc. is what one should refer to anime still-pictures.

Anime = animation, cell-shaded drawings put into motion video.
Animation = moving cartoon
Cartoon = 2D image that distorts human features

So,
Japanese anime is a cartoon put into motion

But,
People create still-drawings of those cell-shaded images

Therefore,
We call it Japanese cartoon.

With that over, I congratulate you on the artist. She does lovely work and I hope to see it put to use soon.

[MoPark]

My favorite VN that I have played I didn't even realize was a visual novel. It was Digital: A Love Story, and despite being made on Renpy, it followed absolutely none of the tropes or cliches common among the visual novel genre.

Not to say that there isn't good justification for why VNs are deep in Japanese culture, but you can make a good game regardless of whether or not you embrace those tropes!

[Auro-Cyanide]

I never said you couldn't use the term, just you should be aware that it isn't actually a style. It's far too broad and ranges from extremely simplified and cartoon like to extremely realistic. It doesn't actually tell anyone anything if they are not thinking about the highly generic anime 'style' of huge eyes, tiny noses and hard cell shading (None of which I use and my avatar is still 'manga' styled). Just if you said 'American comic style' it could mean Marvel or DC, or Garfield, or Peanuts, or Sin City, or Fable, or Sandman (*Discalimer: Not entirely sure if these are actually all American). Saying 'anime style' might not really communicate what you want it to communicate is my point.

The artist you have choosen does semi-realistic (leaning more towards realism) digital painting. It will be interesting to see how it goes within a VN. I would keep art assets to a minimum for now since that kind of art will be pretty time consuming. It is one of the reasons cartoon stylisations are used a lot in VNs. This is an example of a VN that was in progress a while back that had a beautiful painterly style. http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... ro#p109594

[Pugfarts]

You can only do anime. It's the law.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utnb5Mru_zo[/youtube]

[SinusPi]

Whoa. This "Metro" VN should definitely be featured among the best of the best - completed or not, just for the concept. Rarely are animorphs done well and without TOO much humanization. Disney, go sit in the corner.

Hum. Do we even HAVE any sort of "most original picks" list on this forum, showcasing the weird and non-standard and standing-out (even if not quite outstanding) works? You know, what KINDS of things we do here, overlapping it with "what can be achieved with each VN engine"...

[DaFool]

Heh. "Ewe of the Falklands". Search it.

None, but 'original concepts' actually come by pretty frequently here. But like their anime siblings, they also tend to not get completed.

Your artist choice is better than what I expected. Tell her to go all-out stylistically especially to differentiate the look from the typical casual game.

[DaFool]

I was going to wait until my project was ready to launch to register for these forums, but I felt compelled to chime in.

I've been lurking these forums for a while and yes, at a glance, it would appear that romance games with a Japanese-inspired aesthetic experience more popularity and hype. It certainly is the safest thing to do if all you want is to receive praise in a WIP post. Even though most people here seem to prefer manga-style dating sims, they are generally supportive of anyone with a more offbeat project, which I am thankful for.

I personally hope that some more people are willing to take the risk and try to westernize their games a bit as there may be an untapped market in the west for interactive fiction.

From what I've been able to surmise, there are three main groups of people in the west that play these types of games:

1. The first is a group of tight-knit people who believe that only games from Japan are worthy of their time. These people are both impossible to cater to and few in number, so I would not recommend making a game for them.

2. The second group includes most of the frequenters of LSF. These people are more open minded when it comes to VNs and are very interested in projects that are made by western developers, mainly because a lot of them have their own aspirations to make them. Generally, they appear to prefer dating sims, especially ones catered at girls. Mystery games are the (distant) second most popular after romance, it seems.

3. The third group is the more traditional western gamer, who will usually only play interactive fiction if there is another draw to the game, such as Phoenix Wright's courtroom/detective gameplay or Professor Layton's puzzles. Some of them are not particularly fond of manga or anime, though it is usually not a complete turn-off. For the most part, not into dating sims, stat raising, or erotic games. I consider myself part of this group.

Now, when developing a game, you obviously need a target audience. But should you develop for group 2 or group 3?

If you develop for group 2, your game will get a lot of attention by merely posting on these forums, and so long as your idea follows certain customs of the medium and had at least average quality, you'll safely find an audience.

However, group 3 is the largest audience. Though LSF and similar communities have grown a bit in recent years, I still think that Japanese-styled interactive fiction games are a niche in the western world. You can find success, and even some profit, in making games for group 2, but you might not get the audience you want and you'll never be a massive hit.

The problem is that if you're developing for group 3, there's no way to guarantee you'll even find a little bit of success. There isn't a safe way to ensure that your game will arrive in the hands of your target audience. Essentially, your chances of "failing" (whatever your definition of failing may be) are much greater, though the potential for success is much greater.

I would recommend trying something that might cater to a "Group 2.75", which is the approach I am taking with my project. Make it more western oriented and follow your original vision for your story, try and remove as many barriers to entry for interactive fiction as you can, make it a free project if possible, and make it as digestible and accessible as you can for western gamers. However, consider keeping a few maxims of the more traditional Japanese visual novel just in case your project doesn't take off as intended, so that you can always fall back to group 2 and ensure that your game has an audience. I think a mystery game would be the best genre to satisfy both group 2 and group 3, so it sounds like your project might fit the bill.

Whatever path you chose with your story, I wish you the best of luck. Personally, I would like to see fewer people adhere to the Japanese way of handling interactive fiction.

Sorry if my post seemed a little abrasive. Oh, and I might be totally off with my analysis of the different groups of players, but that's just what I've observed as an outsider.

I really loved this post. You summed it up pretty precisely. The "made in Japan" crowd is impossible to cater to. The only game to make them bat an eyelid is Katawa Shoujo, and that was made to JVN specifications (except the photographic backgrounds). Most of the games here are mostly for the second group as you said, and a few for the third type of audience.

I have thought about that very problem for a while, that is why one of my projects features dual art styles... an anime version and an "authentic" / Director's version that mimics the Gothic time period, which can be toggled as an option. The story remains very much the same, in the western tradition. Even though it's an additional layer of art, we just want as much audience as can possibly be.

[SinusPi]

Switchable art styles... While this opens a ton of possibilities, it might have a major drawback: it would remove the "true" feeling of playing the game. Multiple choices define scenario paths and events that occur, so the question of "did this or that REALLY happen" is already hanging in the balance. Add to that "how does this character REALLY look or what kind of body language they REALLY have" - and you might have some players playing the game twice just to see both types of artwork, and some players put off by how much you can customize: too much customization might diminish the feeling of playing THE game as it was. Unless they're clearly distinguished, the "official" and the "director's cut"... Kinda rambling here.

On the other hand, look at the new release of the "Secret of the Monkey Island", switchable between entirely redone graphics and oldschool pixellage. Worked there...

Food for thought.

[papillon]

The only game to make them bat an eyelid is Katawa Shoujo, and that was made to JVN specifications (except the photographic backgrounds).

Plenty of them hate KS too. Never underestimate the amount of hate people can generate.

[Percon]

I really loved this post. You summed it up pretty precisely. The "made in Japan" crowd is impossible to cater to. The only game to make them bat an eyelid is Katawa Shoujo, and that was made to JVN specifications (except the photographic backgrounds). Most of the games here are mostly for the second group as you said, and a few for the third type of audience.

I have thought about that very problem for a while, that is why one of my projects features dual art styles... an anime version and an "authentic" / Director's version that mimics the Gothic time period, which can be toggled as an option. The story remains very much the same, in the western tradition. Even though it's an additional layer of art, we just want as much audience as can possibly be.

Thank you for reading.

On the subject of two switchable art styles for a single game, while it essentially doubles the art assets you'll need, I think that having two complimentary styles could make for some cool juxtapositions. You have the opportunity to make some really neat promotional art.

I think you'd need to be very careful, though. IIRC a few years back there was a JRPG (might have been a "Tales" game) that released 2 versions: A version with 2D animation and a version with 3D CG cutscenes. The 2D one sold, like, nine times more copies than the 3D one. I think it would be a shame to work really hard on a completely different set of graphics only to have a small fraction of players appreciate it. I know that in their case, the games were sold separately, but it is still possible that the popularity of one of your styles dwarfs the other.

Switchable art styles... While this opens a ton of possibilities, it might have a major drawback: it would remove the "true" feeling of playing the game. Multiple choices define scenario paths and events that occur, so the question of "did this or that REALLY happen" is already hanging in the balance. Add to that "how does this character REALLY look or what kind of body language they REALLY have" - and you might have some players playing the game twice just to see both types of artwork, and some players put off by how much you can customize: too much customization might diminish the feeling of playing THE game as it was. Unless they're clearly distinguished, the "official" and the "director's cut"... Kinda rambling here.

On the other hand, look at the new release of the "Secret of the Monkey Island", switchable between entirely redone graphics and oldschool pixellage. Worked there...

Food for thought.

There are some remakes, like Cave Story +, that feature the option to toggle on old-school visuals. However, in a lot of these cases, the game is identical to the original and the old-school art is already complete, meaning there wasn't a lot of extra work involved.

[DaFool]

Hmmm, I think it's more to do with porting to the PS3 which included significant changes, more content, and being region-free.

Anyways, since most modern anime have realistic body structures, the difference between it and other styles just boils down to cel-shading and the head (face and hair). Thus a compositing system that switches the shading style as well as the heads. Many games now use a paperdoll system for the clothes... I don't see why a similar system can't be used to change art style. Then have two sets of screenshots to show depending on the community I'm trying to promote the game in.

But that's just the worst case scenario where we MUST have a certain style we know might turn off the audience. For other games I've settled on a Hotel Dusk style which sits nicely between Japanese and western comic style.

[penceo]

I never said you couldn't use the term, just you should be aware that it isn't actually a style. It's far too broad and ranges from extremely simplified and cartoon like to extremely realistic. It doesn't actually tell anyone anything if they are not thinking about the highly generic anime 'style' of huge eyes, tiny noses and hard cell shading (None of which I use and my avatar is still 'manga' styled). Just if you said 'American comic style' it could mean Marvel or DC, or Garfield, or Peanuts, or Sin City, or Fable, or Sandman (*Discalimer: Not entirely sure if these are actually all American). Saying 'anime style' might not really communicate what you want it to communicate is my point.

The artist you have choosen does semi-realistic (leaning more towards realism) digital painting. It will be interesting to see how it goes within a VN. I would keep art assets to a minimum for now since that kind of art will be pretty time consuming. It is one of the reasons cartoon stylisations are used a lot in VNs. This is an example of a VN that was in progress a while back that had a beautiful painterly style. http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... ro#p109594

The term "anime" is a common term to describe that kind of style.Some people use this term to describe that kind of style are aware it is isn't actually a style.It like saying guinea pig is not a pig but the name "guinea pig" is the common name.So you prefer to call it cavia porcellus but not many people know it's scientific name than it's common name.You can't just tell all people that isn't actually a style that people use that word must be an ignorant.It's like complaining about people calling all rabbit as rabbit when people should describe it's specific name as there are different species of rabbit.It is better to use common word to describe it than having no description it.So tell me the highly specific term for it and tell everybody that term.You should know the K.I.S.S principle by having simple explanation.

[gekiganwing]

The term "anime" is a common term to describe that kind of style. Some people use this term to describe that kind of style are aware it ... isn't actually a style.

Agreed. I believe that it's wise to avoid using terms in overgeneralized ways. That said... please keep in mind that this thread was inactive for over three years. There is a chance that the thread will be closed.

Please keep in mind that I encourage people to write whatever type of story that they want, using whatever art aesthetic they want. Remember that it's *your* story. You can write it to resemble any format or category of fiction, or strive for as much originality as possible. You can blend your influences. The story can be as long or as complex as you want. All genres are viable. Any type of content can work.