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Okay - yeah. That was kind of a thoughtless comment thrown out by someone coming at the topic from the artist side of things. In my defense I was directing it more towards Auro-Cyanide, as she is a talented artist already.

As an artist, if I've already worked out what a character's look and costume is, and I'm only drawing them from the waist up, AND the coloring is as simple as in the Disgaea sprites, doing 9 poses wouldn't be much of a strain. In art school we had to do gesture poses all the time in 30 seconds to a minute, so . . . .

I recognize now that saying "Do extra poses to go with emotions - it isn't that hard!" has probably made all the non-artist VN makers glare icy death at my post . . . .

EDIT: Okay - all the non-artists gone? Good. Extra poses mean more money for sprite work, too, fellow artists! Everybody w - I mean - artists win!

well indeed that would be expensive...And not THAT easy to do XD But it can be done!
(I would guess thats why my boss said NO but it was mostly because he hated games with text)
I also think that that kind of style hardly would fit to every game

Anyway I think Im making offtopic..Im sorry! It wasnt my intention orz

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My WIP project:The hurtful wall
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sadfrog developer blog

Really quickly--I think the main reason why Auro even started this topic was to see how necessary poses are to other people. She has a rather demanding day job, so the amount of time she has to spend on VN art isn't as much as it could be. She has to prioritize things and work at a steady pace otherwise we'd never be able to release anything. In a perfect world, we'd have multiple (animated) poses for all the sprites and a whole host of other cool art stuff, but in the interests of time, we kind of have to pick and choose what to include.

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1/2 of Cyanide Tea | BCM | Ristorante Amore | The Elevator | @Twitter

In my experience, sometimes making a "full body posture change" sprite can take even longer than a CG, especially if you'll need to replicate the expressions set and the clothing set.

edit: @Camille Actually one of the reasons I'm a fan of the Japanese way of doing things is discovering 'lazy' approaches that they were able to get away with things. In fact anime as a whole is a lazy way of going about traditional animation compared to Disney. I also adhere to the 'minimum viable product' philosophy. So in that sense... drumroll....

2 poses per character, each with the full suite of expressions and any alternate costumes. The main pose and a second pose so the audience noticed that the pose changed! Both poses should seem natural enough to not look freaky when viewed for an extended period of time.

Agreed. If it's a possibility, I would aim for two distinct poses for every major character, with a third if you have a character who you want to show off as being hyperactive or has a particular strong emotion you want to draw attention to. Being able to switch between two postures helps break up the monotony of a long conversation visually. And for that reason it doesn't matter as much with minor characters, as you're less likely to spend long stretches of time staring at their unmoving form.

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Hanako Games

For my project I'm pretty much going to be doing 3+ poses per main character plus a sprite with one pose for most NPCs, but I realize that that's kind of insane. Then again, as someone flying solo, the only deadline I'm beholden to is my own.

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I occasionally frequently draw other people's characters. Now offering delinquentization, medievalization, and cyborgification. Hit me up in PM if you want sprites for your KN or non-ren'ai VN.

EVEN IF THE TENDONS OF MY THUMBS TEAR INTO NOTHINGNESS, EVEN IF I GO NEARSIGHTED FROM STARING TOO HARD AT THE SCREEN, EVEN IF MY BODY IS CLOSE TO COLLAPSE FROM THE 72 HOURS I HAVE GONE WITHOUT FOOD! I WILL DEFEAT YOU!

Well, multiple poses are very important for me. I notice that sort of thing. I could not care less about animated poses though. I think even blinking sprites are a waste of time. I can fill in that sort of micro-detail in my own mind's eye.

When a sprite's expression is the only thing that changes I just find it weak. I also tend to skip over expressions in VNs without meaning to when that's the case. I read the text and glance at the sprites, only realizing later after I'd clicked thru - "Wait, did she get mad/change expression?"

I know it's extra work as opposed to slapping sad eyes and a frown on a sprite in the most neutral pose you can think of, but poses are what give character's life in my eyes. It's how I could immediately tell Etna was a tease and confident and why Flonne came across as reserved and nervous - even with no dialogue or text.

But I still say it isn't as much work as it appears, especially if you plan and cheat:


All the artist did on the second pose is change the arms from the second and the face expression. Notice the head itself could be copy-pasted between all three sprites (it isn't in this case - but it could be and still work). And the coloring on all the sprites is simple.



The first and second poses superimposed over one another. Notice the artist just rotated the SAME facing arm, rotated the SAME bat wing, drew a new expression on the face without moving the head, redrew the ponytail extensions but not the main hair (to make the extensions stand more on end to emphasize anger), drew a new arm in the back, and redrew the tail (to stiffen it - again to emphasize anger). Yet the effect is striking. Better yet, if you transition from one sprite to another (i.e. swap them out in game) - you get a great illusion of movement and animation.




Auro-Cyanide's normal "painterly" style may not be appropriate for a large cast of characters with lots of poses. I mentioned in another thread that I finalize my script before doing the art so I see how much art is required and change the art style accordingly. If I have a small cast without a lot of art assets needed I can ramp up the realism. Otherwise, as Dafool noted, anime style was INVENTED to be lazy, fast, and quick to produce.

Bahahahaha! And more stress when we can't get that extra pose to look as good as the first pose we drew! A winrar is us!

I am a fan of multiple poses for the same reasons LWR said. If the changes are too subtle, I miss them while I'm reading, and that's no fun. But I think the style of writing matters, too. If you write it more like a traditional novel, you might be able to get away with limited poses and subtle changes. If you write it more like a play, you are probably going to need more poses to convey the emotion you aren't describing with text.

I also agree with the idea of adjusting the style to fit the scope of the work. My project (not Pet Project) has quite a few characters who play enough of a role in the story to have a lot of sprites. It would kill me to color and shade them in the (wonderful) level of detail you use, so I'm aiming for something much less polished both to ensure that it will eventually be released in my lifetime, and as a stylistic choice to fit the story.

But those are just my thoughts... many grains of salt can be taken. ^_^;

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“When I stand before God at the end of my life,
I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left,
and could say, 'I used everything you gave me.'”
— Erma Bombeck

I can say that is hurts me deeply not to draw out every major action *rolls on the floor* I feel like that my art fails to represent what is going on. But it's physically impossible for me to do all the time.

Like Camille said, because of work, I only get 1-2 hours each night during the week (if I'm lucky) and weekends to do art (and then people around me get grumpy if I spend 'all my time on the computer'). So I have to be reeeeeeeeeally picky about what I spend time on. I want this game to look good, but I also want to release it, which means I need to hit a happy medium between the two.

Originally, I was commissioned, so there were only going to be 5 sprites. However, after I got full time work, well, it's already been mentioned that an artist working for themselves can do a lot more XD

The thing with doing what Disgaea is a) I'm not using such a simplified style b) my colouring takes longer and c)I'm using more than one outfit for the characters, so that has to be duplicated with each change. So there are limitations with what I can do. Plus, since it's a commercial project, and a visual novel, the art has to have both quality and variety. I get to choose where that quality and variety goes. People, generally, want everything with art. If I could I would have lots of poses, lots of outfits, lots of CGs etc, but if anyone want to see this game before they die, I'm going to have to cut some bits out XD Plus, it's one game. I want it to be awesome, but it doesn't mean I have to do everything possible. There will be other opportunities later to stretch myself more in new directions. I still want it to be awesome though.

This is an example of my art (100%), which clearly proves I'm a paranoid freak who despises looking at pixels :B

This is why the situation isn't simply redrawing and would at least be mildly time consuming... though I have at least gotten faster, so that's something. I would most definitely be 'cheating' wherever I could and reusing what I could, I'm not that silly thank god. I would mostly try and keep the head the same at least so I didn't have to redraw the emotions.

I really think changing poses would be really nice, but I still have other concerns apart from just the sheer effort side of things. Let's say I gave everyone a second pose, a more exaggerated one to go with the neutral one which would be based on the type of character they are/what is most likely to happen in the story. So I've shown that extra level to the audience. Would they then be disappointed when say, such-and-such slugs so-and-so in the month and that isn't shown with the sprite poses? (I realise that there are other ways to show this, screen shake etc, just as an example of when two characters interact).

*Rotoscoping is possible, especially with a smaller cast, though it would be time consuming. I would need footage of people though to do it how hotel dusk does it. Then you would still need to animate all those pngs in the game, which would be a lot of work. Plus, it's Hotel Dusk's thing, it would be obvious you were copying them.

...I think I addressed everything I wanted to...?

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The other 1/2 of Cyanide Tea l My Deviantart Account I My Tumber Account I Break Chance Memento I Ristorante Amore

Would they be any less disappointed if you only showed it by sprite poses and not a full CG for each fight scene? (Hey, there are plenty of Japanese VNs where any punching is immediately shown by a Chibi CG! Surely you can do all that and sleep too! )

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Hanako Games

We are planning to do Chibi CGs since it turn out I can actually draw them okay (who knew?) but sometimes they are just not appropriate for the tone of voice. Plus, it's not only punching. It's patting someone on the head, poking them, pushing them etc just in normal conversation. While I definitely think CGs are important for bigger, emotional scenes, I probably won't be able to do it every time one character interacts with another. Plus, that might actually be an OD of CGs XD

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The other 1/2 of Cyanide Tea l My Deviantart Account I My Tumber Account I Break Chance Memento I Ristorante Amore

You aren't alone. I'm constantly editing myself as I write my scripts. "I can't have them do that! I'd have to draw it!"


Ah. I thought this was for a new project you were going to start working on. Yeah, I mentioned you are currently limited by your style. If you simplified to a Disgaea style on a new project, you could get out a lot more sprites than your current coloring style makes possible. Something to consider for future projects.

For my project I'm drawing all the characters naked in their poses, then paper-dolling their outfits on top to save time. Even though I have to color and shade nearly all the skin since different outfits have different areas of coverage, I think it is marginally more efficient. I always draw the naked body first to work out proportions and form in my art anyway. Occasionally I do have to tweak or redo a small section of the naked sprite to fit the clothing - compressing straps or push-up bras, etc. I could honestly have a "naked mode" in my game with no extra work! ("Activate the secret code to see all those hunks and babes in the buff! And the old ladies, and fat merchants, and that creepy old beggar dude . . . . .")


That is always the hardest part for me too, to find that balance between the quality and variety. How far can I push the realism before it becomes unfeasible versus the assets required? How far can I simplify the art style without compromising the tone and mood of the work? How awesome can I be?! (Answer: Always less awesome than I thought I could be, but always more awesome than I was before.)



Really, Auro-Cyanide. Individual hair strands? Braids? Soft-twinkly highlights?! Big shapes, clumps of hair, two colors - that's how you do hair! Get with the program!


Well, personally I'm always disappointed when things like punches and kisses aren't shown even if all the characters only have one pose. So us visual-junkies are going to be disappointed regardless of previous effort spent on sprite poses or not. Unpleasable bastards is what we are. I actually have one character punch another when they first meet in my game (yeah, I have a CG) and I'm such an insane idiot I even gave the one character an alternative coloring job on their sprite so they would have a black-eye for the next few days in game. But you probably shouldn't do that - it is why my game production is like an eternal twilight where the Date Modified numbers on my files frighten and chill my soul as they stretch backwards into the darkness . . . .



Rotoscoping is a deadly trap. Take it from someone who did it professionally. I have thousands of hours experience rotoscoping. It is harder to do right than simply drawing and animating from scratch. It looks beautiful when done right, but it is expensive and time consuming. Very time consuming. I once spent 150 hours rotoscoping one man doing 10 seconds of action - and I was considered one of the best on our production team and was taking shortcuts to speed the process up! And we were using specialized software to help us out.

You want to know the most evil part? You have to watch a single clip of video thousands of times. Tens of thousands of times. It invades your dreams such that you dream that same 10 second loop over and over again all night long. Then you drag yourself into work and stare at it looping all day for real.

You DESERVED to die for all you put me through, Jack! Sink! Sink and get out of my mind! Ahem.

Oh yeah, I definitely do that. It's so much easier drawing clothing on a body than trying to redraw everything. The only time I don't is for minor characters that only have one outfit. Plus, the boys do show up naked, so all that skin had to be shaded eventually.

So true X( Though I did do better on Nanoreno than I thought, which is one of the reason I thought I might actually be up for the challenge. Maybe.

I knoooooow ;_; I missed the memo. I did a much simpler and faster colouring style for Nano, which helped a lot. And people still said it didn't look as good as BCM to which I go "I know... ;_;" I'm not actually sure you can win XD Graphics people will always want more and more, myself included, but compromise is key to getting stuff done. There are going to be times when I will not be able to draw what I want. It's a fact. And people will probably mention it and I'll have to deal with that too and cry silently. I also know what you mean about detail. Angelina could wear make-up. And she had freckles if she didn't. And Liam could grow stubble...

It made me insanely happy when someone noticed ;_;

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The other 1/2 of Cyanide Tea l My Deviantart Account I My Tumber Account I Break Chance Memento I Ristorante Amore

Poses do take a lot of extra time, and I'd never lambaste anyone for only having one pose per character... so long as the character's single poses are appropriate. I remember playing though Ever17 (my only true VN experience) and being driven crazy by the fact that Takeshi () wouldn't ever take his hand out from behind his head. It was pretty ridiculous.

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Exit/Corners development blog: http://www.exitcorners.com/

Dearest.
Sure, I love pictures. Totally go for prettiness and stuff - the more the merrier.
BUT.
I enjoyed your mini-demo, even though the characters had only one pose and there were no CGs.
The characters had the right feeling, which is a hundred times more important than different poses.
The pretty faces and emotions kept me interested in the art - I'd prefer it if you kept your style instead of using this simplified style.
(It's just... different.)
Poses are cool, but they are an extra.
I'd rather play the game than to have side-characters with poses unless they are really needed.

If I remember correctly X-Note didn't have poses either - but I sometimes just stared at the screen because I liked what I see.
Things like blinking or speaking at the other hand are not only easy to make, but they also "relax" the static faces.

Just go for what you can - there's no need to overwork yourself. Your typical day really sounds stressful.

- R.

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Newest Update: "Interface preview + WIPs" (13. 9. 2012)