Lemma Soft Forums

Please, ignore the horrible title.

I've searched Lemma for a thread touching this particular subject, but my search was fruitless, so I decided to create my own.
This might be due to obviously, not existing or that I have a complete inability on using the search function. I apologize if it is the latter.
Since I’m an admittedly complete newbie to this particular subject, and I’m sure there is a lot of people that could use this kind of information for guidance, I’m here asking to anyone that wants to share is thoughts and know-how to contribute on this thread.

So what are my questions anyway?

Where do you advertise your game?
On a personal level, I’ve only advertised my game here on Lemma, so I’m not surprised of having very low daily hits on my website for example, but still, it’s pretty disheartening finding that I can’t even reach the 20 Like mark on Facebook after some months
I think I’ve only now started to realize how a complete slob regarding this subject I’ve been.

So, the bottom line is, how can I advertise a game? How can I make people more aware to the existence of a game?
As for advertising finished products, I’ve seen a site like http://www.indiedb.com/ for example. Is there anyone that has used this kind of website before? Are there any similar sites to this one? And selling on them directly is a good/bad idea?
Are there any other type of good sites like portals, or VN databases where you can add them?

Thanks for reading, if you have any input to give, even the smallest that it might be, feel free to share it.

_________________
Hope~ Symphony of Tomorrow
http://tatamivisual.com/
http://www.facebook.com/tatamivisualarts

Your game will spread itself a bit on its own once it's *done*... there's a lot less to talk about when a project is still in the works. Especially given that the vast majority of WIPs are never completed and many people outright ignore them.

And natch, if you're doing a commercial game and you accept affiliates, quite a lot of sites will help advertise your work in exchange for a share of profits.

IndieDB is willing to accept in-progress games and is a pretty decent place for getting attention if you're willing to write frequent devblogs with pictures. Blogging frequently is really the best way to get attention for something that's still in development. If you have nothing new to say, why should people keep coming back? Why should they talk about your game?

Give them something to engage with and they'll be more engaged.

_________________
Hanako Games

@papillon
Thanks for the very insightfull input!

I again admit, that I'm utterly ignorant this particular subjects; you mentioned the affiliate system on your post, how does that system work? It's a word that pops out here and here but I've never understood how it works.

_________________
Hope~ Symphony of Tomorrow
http://tatamivisual.com/
http://www.facebook.com/tatamivisualarts

What I like to do is that I wait until I get to like 50-60% done with a project before I unveil it to the public. I find that not only will it show people that I'm serious about my work, but I will also have progress to show for it and I won't be setting anyone up for disappointment if I happen to abandon or change my project entirely.

Another reason why I choose to wait before the big unveil is that if you show your work too early and managed to get people excited for it, that excitement might die out by the time your project is released. Excitement is something that doesn't last very long and it is very difficult to keep alive once it's been enticed.

_________________
Visit my Colors! 3D Gallery for all my artwork. It is best viewed on a Nintendo 3DS, as some of my works are in 3D.

Basically, many internet sales systems are set up so that if someone refers a sale to you, they can get a cut of the profits of that sale. You'll see people who have, say, Amazon links on their websites with special referrer codes. If someone clicks through that link and then purchases something from Amazon, the person whose referrer link was used earns a small amount of money.

What this does is give lots of people an incentive to advertise your site and your products. They earn a commission by making sales; if they don't sell anything they don't earn anything.

So many of us who already sell games are happy to sell each other's games to our customers as well. Similarly, many sites and blogs that review games include affiliate links so that people come to the site to read the reviews, then buy the products and support the site.

How to set it up depends on what tools you're using to handle your sales.

_________________
Hanako Games

Related:
You could raise awareness and coverage for your game by... (oh boy here we go) Spamming 4chan and associating your game with it. Make multiple threads about your game or make a thread unrelated to your game and accompany it with image that is related to your game... people will not like it but bad publicity is still publicity... I know a certain VN that did it and get away with it...

"POOF" (Disappears)

_________________

No. Absolutely do not follow Mugen's advice. Do not.

Unless you have a very wide anus, don't even attempt to follow his/her idea.

_________________

ask your fans to post it? I have 325 followers on tumblr, and at least 10 of them would reblog my work. If i ask them to reblog it actively, i might get 25 people to reblog. You can ask your friends/fans for help publicizing. If you don't usually create art or writing and therefor don't have fans, you should start cultivating some. Write a lot, draw a lot, it doesn't have to do with the game you are making, actually its better if its fanart/fic because you'll get fans quickly that way. Then once they get to know you and like you, they'll check out your original work. then BAM, you can unveil your game to them, asking them nicely if they would publicize it for you. You can also ask them for "feedback" because everyone loves giving feedback, and since they are your fans, they will probably give you some glowing review in a post and tell all their friends about it and stuff.

Game forums, Twitter, Tumblr, buying adspace on various websites... Honestly, word of mouth is always the best. So make your game the best you can, try and promote it a little, and then if your game is good, it'll start promoting itself. People will tell their friends about it, review blogs will pick it up, etc. It's important to have your own website for people to refer back to, of course, but other than that I don't think there's a sure thing. Getting a fanbase or people to pay attention to you is always something of a long and slow process. You just have to be patient.

That said, papillon is right about WIPs being ignored more since the vast majority of VNs never get finished. Our BCM website only gets a couple of hits a day unless we release a new video or something and rightfully so. There really isn't much there for returning fans to look at. I didn't promote RisAmo any more than the usual (Tumblr, Twitter, LSF), but just by virtue of the game being complete + word of mouth, the site now gets hundreds of hits a day.

So probably the best thing to do is be patient, forget about the numbers for now, and try to finish your game. You'll definitely get a ton of hits once it's done.

_________________
1/2 of Cyanide Tea | BCM | Ristorante Amore | The Elevator | @Twitter

Of course the best time to advertise is when something is done. Otherwise there's really no point if someone is going to see your project, notice it's unusable, and completely forget about it once they hit the back button. I would imagine some people would stick around to see what would come of it, but 80% wouldn't look back.

I think advertising should be a conversation of passive and aggressive tactics. You can go to forums for places where they allow advertising for your game and post it, put it in your signature at the places you go, get more active in communities so that you're recognized more, submit your game to a blog asking for a review, submitting your blog to the Planet EVN carnival so that other OELVN players see you more often, ect...

So I'd say put your stuff out there in places where you know people would be interested (lemmasoft, Vn websites, ect) and keep a passive reminder everywhere else. I also agree with Camile: once you get even a small trickel of awareness started, people will advertise it for you because they like it. So, follow your heart!

_________________

Demo released! Click the banner to try it!


A webcomic updated weekly by yours truly.

I've been thinking about this question, that' there's not much audience, and am resigned to the fact that should I feel pissed off for some reason, I could technically finish a game and just sit on it. The satisfaction of having completed an awesome project is there... if I have paid everybody else and copyrights are mine I can do whatever I see fit. In fact while reading the Homeward thread the idea of taking your own work 'hostage' did occur to me at some point, when I was feeling down. I'm still mostly discouraged most of the time because the majority of visual novel players are still actively hostile towards EVNs. While the works that do impress them get their CGs ripped and placed on e-hentai galleries like some other throwaway JVN. That's why my main project isn't even a Visual Novel. RPGs definitely have more audience.

I used to be satisfied with having just 3-5 other comrades pick up my game and comment on it. But now while we're all encouraging each other here, we're all developers who don't even have time to play every one of each other's works anymore since we are too busy with our own projects. We have our own preferences and can afford to be selective. Did you know PyTom used to play EVERY. SINGLE. game made with Ren'Py, even those he didn't like? Now he can be more selective due to more releases and lack of time. Essentially a consumer now like everyone else, rather than a guaranteed supporter. It's now a big honor now that's harder to achieve, if the game engine creator liked the game you created with his engine. What's needed are external players and some do indeed arrive and stay here which is good. But where else?

Alternate markets are:
-4chan: moe game with high production values, forum-sanctioned by following certain memes.
-indiegames: preferably non-anime-style game with lots of western-style simulation interactivity.
-casual portals: games should be somewhat appealing to older women.

I've basically joined all the indie forums already and contributed some discussion so that by the time I have something to announce it won't come off as spam but as a contribution by a long-time (though mostly lurking) member . It's actually surprising but LSF really is the only forum I've come across that isn't so hostile towards people coming in just for release announcements.

I've also noticed that the most prominent EVN projects have had a VERTICAL SLICE demo released at some point. That's probably a tactic somebody else will use (since I'm an iterative type of developer and feel really uncomfortable releasing a fully polished snippet if I'm unsure I can sustain that quality the duration of the game), but apparently it works and people look forward to the complete work. Oh, another thing... people will rate your game as a 10 based on a really impressive demo and that will skew the VNDB rating even after you release the complete game that has flaws. (Why didn't I think of that tactic?)

If by yourself, it also pays to be extremely productive and eventually gain a high batting average. I thought at first Heart of Fire and Digital were mostly both impressive but low key. One became even more obscure and forgotten while the other took off.

I'll readily admit to being introduced to EVN by jp VNs (and having a lesser opinion initially due to poor choices in the beginning). But now, I'm unabashedly a big fan of the EVN scene (often buying lots of EVN to show support). No matter what, I think creators cannot give up on the audience. Yeah, there is a bias towards the mainstream that discourages originality. But there are always (and will always be) the exceptional visual novels that arise above those biases and command attention.
--
Not as a creator, but as a huge fan of VNs, I can remark on things that catch my attention:
1. Game Demo
This allows the player to really see a slice of the story/writing/art/GUI. BCM's demo was so excellent that I still remember it, even after months of playing. KS's demo (Act I) managed to get a huge following (translation into many different languages and tons of excited volunteers/readers). A demo shows the WIP game is more likely to be finished. Too many threads are made and forgotten.
2. Relentless coverage in every possible game interest forum
Lemmasoft is a nice place to start. But there's also vndb, the Escapist, newgrounds, cnet, 4chan, etc. Admittedly, 4chan can be cruel to EVN. I've seen fawning posts and posts that ripped into everything about the EVN, game creator, etc. But you know what? KS did start there and I've never seen a visual novel that received more attention/downloads/posts than KS. The visual novel exploded (Over 1000 downloads in the first 30 minutes of release, not counting torrents) and received attention from huge review sites (The Escapist, RPS, etc.). Darn impressive and even with the haters that came out of it, you can see the interest in VN there. The Escapist thread for the review had gamers asking for VNs like KS. That is a perfect place to mention a game like yours.
Warning: 4chan may not be a good place for a commercial game. There often seems to be piracy promoted there.
3. Indies supporting each other
Winter Wolves has a great newsletter that highlights indies (I remember Jack doing that for Zeiva and C. Love). Why not check that out? Or maybe join in on the twitter group where the indies seem to clearly support each other?
4. VN Review Sites
My personal favorite VN review site at this moment is vnsnow. The guy keeps a fair view on VNs and does really interesting interviews. Why not try to do one with him? Or get him to check out your visual novel? I happen to like that one over a lot of others because quite a few have shown the tendency to project reasons behind why the audience likes a visual novel. If another person tells me the reason I liked KS is because I have a white knight complex or some odd reason, I'm going to make sure to just avoid that site/reviewer instead of listening to more of that dribble.
5. Freeware
Why did I buy sakevisual's Green Tea Line? Because Re: Alistar was impressive and I already knew they were a quality group. Freeware games are easy to promote and help give the audience an idea of which groups have that "it" factor.
6. Some controversy/originality
Let's admit it...it helps. Playing it safe in a visual novel means you get a certain number of responses, but to really light up the internet? DTIPB had a certain relationship dilemna and a phone conversation that made more than a few reviewers uncomfortable/interested. It was a moral choice that provoked discussion and discussion means free advertisement.
7. Go beyond the pc scene
Porting your visual novel to an android app may help build the audience. An unfortunate downside is the pricing often has to be within android apps expectations. Not to mention sales are questionable. This would probably be after the visual novel has been released for some time.
8. Superior Product
No amount of advertisement will save a visual novel that is rushed out or cuts corners. I remember a commercial visual novel that used cheap sprites (that looked like it), questionable backgrounds, poor writing/voice over. An immediate "pass" that made me never want to look back at the group. Commercial groups are held to a high standard (and even despite all the work, there will be criticism from people because no work is perfect). But a great finished product will promote itself if the quality is there.
9. Quick Releases/Shorter Development Time
I know this sounds contrary to 8, but let's admit it: it's too easy to be forgotten. Shorter development times means more games to sell and to catch the attention of the paying audience. I was introduced to Winter Wolves by Bionic Heart. Loved it and I was very excited to see the group had more releases to buy/play. WW has a lot of games often released which help keep the audience interested and paying attention. I haven't really seen a group that succeeded when the development time was long. Often the costs rises and interests wanes as investing too much in one project leads to a huge risk where it has to succeed and succeed very well.

EDIT:Here is a similar thread I started about this topic (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12947) called "How do you advertise your VN?". I didn't read through to see what differed, but there were some creators who chimed in there.

Thanks for the tips.

I'm also just wondering which is easier to obtain for ones project... 4chan's blessing or the attention of an external critic (in a PC-centric indiegaming site). I think either of those are what we term "King Makers" that determine whether a work or author are then catapulted to popularity.

If only it were that easy. Most of the big eruptions in this forum have been precisely between expert, talented individuals. The people I would most likely support... uh, well, I'm working with them already! I see groups carve out their niches whether it's otome, JVN pacing, or more IF-influenced works. (I think my future lies in the niche of nukige and high-risk experimental works).

I don't think the EVN market is that large (if you don't count people who've played Katawa Shoujo and not much else, not pursuing VNs any further), all the more the paying market. I'm really curious about the mailing lists of the full-time VN makers... like the total purchaseing population size and the gender ratio, for instance. I won't be surprised if the market can only sustain so many game creators and if we're effectively just poaching each other's audiences... unless we branch out into RPGs and other gameplay systems.

You make a lot of good points and I have to admit, both are difficult. Personally, I think it depends on the compromises your group makes in terms of a few key issues:

1. Sex/Adult Material
Mainstream games are oddly scared of the topic, especially if nudity is involved. Think of the controversy over Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto, or basically any visual novel where sex is involved. You have to jump through hoops and there still will be a group that complains that some child is being corrupted :/. It is a minefield and it is a difficult one to overcome for the Indie game scene. Not so much for 4chan, of course.
2. Style of Visual novel
4chan adores jp vns and they seem to favor BxG. If you like the anime art style and prefer a BxG protagonist, here is the audience.
Indie game reviews is pretty fair in terms of sex of protagonist (although I've seen mainly male protagonist), but desires gameplay or some kind of controversy/deep issue that makes it a good article (Air Pressure, The Crossing, RPGs, etc.

So far this list seems to favor 4chan, but here is a big issue...
3. Paying audience/Size of Audience
Why did Manga Gamer's Kara no Shoujo fail to sell? Pirated copy on the first day might have stopped people. Manga Gamer sales are bad, often resulting them having panels where they plead with fans to buy the game instead of pirating. Being a hit indie game allows a bigger audience and one that have better sales/profit margin. Exception in this case may be the nukiage. I believe I read those to be the better sellers for Manga Gamer.

Both are difficult, but I think I remember a post where you mentioned you liked JRPG or possibly wanted to make them. There is a big place in the indie game scene there, imo. The only anime art style games I recall being on Steam were J-style RPG. Definition of high risk, but could be high reward. In terms of nukiage, I'd go off of Sugar Delight reviews I once read on vndb that had many readers happily surprised by the work. That group you work with is quite good at capturing the right feeling for nukiage (so I believe you can easily be one of the very few, if not the only group, that could pull off an OLEVN nukiage group). Basically DaFool, you've got the talent. You just probably have to decide which direction you want your group to go. I say this as a reader who enjoyed a lot of your work.

Also:

That makes sense and I'll admit, that is probably the biggest thing I wished could change on this forum. We got a huge amount of talent here and for some reason, there is a divide between the groups. Why can't the otome groups help out the JVN pacing groups or vice versa? You guys both reach different groups, but they share the love of reading visual novels. As a reader, I'll admit that I happen to believe people can like very different things depending on the VN/game.

Real life example? Sakevisual did otome (Re:Allistar) and got people who normally love otome to try out mystery (Jisei). Maybe a few otome fans didn't bite, but there were also those that did. Those fans continued their support with the next installment (Kansei) and boom: widening interest and a more diverse fanbase. Maybe it worked in the opposite direction (people who liked Jisei/Kansei went after a different sakevisual work).


That is a good point about the small size...and I'll admit, it needs to grow. I think Jack said gender wise, paying customers were more female. I think that post was regarding Card Sweethearts (definitely a male VN) or Bionic Heart being not the best sellers while otome games were. Hopefully a VN creator could pitch in thoughts about that.

tl;dr: Depends on type of VN for each scene. VN makers should stick together and show support.

Donno about that. Thus far, I absolutely have no luck with "professional" reviewers. And I have people threatening me not to buy my games because they have seen unfavorable review of it. *shrug