Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#61 Post by czxcjx »

If you want to kill your jargon, kill your quasi-legalese formatting. This "rule" honestly seems redundant. I'm sure there are VNs out there with only text and sound or images and text.
I think we're still talking past each other on certain portions. The problem is that its hard to put a lot of these things in precise words because it deals with all these hazy areas of intuition and subjective experience that can't be expressed properly. I made that section because I wanted to be clear about what I was experiencing when reading or playing a Visual Novel. I wanted to come up with a way to pin down what I was viewing so I could break it down further and get to the core of what exactly makes a Visual Novel one of the most immersive mediums of late.

I was experiencing chiefly in two ways. In Space and in Time.

By Space I mean that my eyes were brushing over everything that was on the screen in front of me. So likewise when I type this paragraph I'm experiencing a sense of light colors and blue and washes of white in between the text. Also on the periphery of my vision is the slow dark setting grey of my room because the afternoon is fading and I'm too lazy to get up and turn on the light.

Yet simultaneously I'm also experiencing in Time. So the frame, the moment, doesn't exist by itself but its a series of other frames set up against one another. The clicking of the keyboard is punctuating my experience of the frame in discernible units of time and deep behind the slight rumbling of thunder is waving in and out of my thought.

Yet I'm also experiencing this deep and different sense of Time within myself, which is composed off the lingering wafts of my imagination as well as my thoughts and the words I'm thinking of writing drifting in and out of my head. When I read a Visual Novel I'm experiencing the music in the time of real life, where the song is 3 minutes long and loops itself after said 3 minutes, but then I'm also reading the text and coming up with my own sense of time, like if the scene inside is a battle then I imagine this influx of brief impressions, of steel and gunfire and screams and blood. So within the 3 minutes when I read about the scene and hear the music play, I also feel this hour long play of sound and fury going on inside the very recesses of my mind.

So how would I compose a battle scene like that, which evokes all these 3 levels of Space, Objective Time and Subjective Time? How would I, thinking in these terms, compose a vision?

Well first I would think in terms of Space, and what I would want to establish. The horror of war for example? Probably a helmet on the head of a skull. I also have to think in terms of color, like how to make such an image be stark and raw. For example using very deep inking and strong monochrome contrast like a Charles Burns comic? How would I position the shot? Up close with the crawling of maggots upon the eye? Would I shift the frame a bit backwards to have a full view of the torso, leaned against a wall? And most of all how do I frame the text? Do I even want text in that scene? Should I just let it wash over a bunch of stills of dead bodies? Perhaps in this case I would make it elegiac, and have the text scroll down and write it in the form of a war poem? Perhaps I can eschew the horrors of it altogether. Write it in a different way. Just have a view of the sky, grey and misty with all sorts of gloom. For the whole duration of the battle I focus on nothing but the sky. The sky and its all choking miasma like Death and Pestilence itself. Furthermore the sky allows me to use NVL format of heavy text because my vision of the frame knows that nothing else is happening in the back but I can still feel like general gloom of it misting behind the black screen.

If I take the route of the sky I can move on to Time. How should I punctuate it aurally? Do I want to use music? Do I just want to just use the sound of battle? Do I want to use the sound of rain? Do I even just want it to be silent? A lack of sound is just as important as sound. Of course if I use the sound of battle I can't sync it to images because I decided that I should compose the scene with only one image. What type of music? That's up to the sound team but what type of mood do I want it to convey? Is this a place to use something strange like this stripped down minimalist beat? How long can I expect scrolling through the scene to last? How long does the sound take before it gets old and it gets on your nerves? In this case stuff like silence or rainfall or a minimalist synth line would be better since it sorts of fade into the back of your head if it lasts too long.

Which leads now to the writing. Which is what will sell or make the scene fall on its knees since most of the other stimulation has been stripped down into such a bare state. Do I write highly subjective, get in the person's head, use repetitious words like "survive survive oh god please make me survive" or do I make it into like an image-text tapestry? I can focus on laconic one line descriptions that whip past with every click in an ADV like format. "The scrounging of mud between the fingers", "the clutch of the steel and huddling, with the rumbling so closer and ever getting closer", "fingers so bitten and dry", "Overhead another fighter roars" etc.. etc.. Or something completely digressive; "an farewell to the sky composed in boots" told by a particularly poetic soldier of the Jaguar Company, mixing fact and mythology and detail as his life slowly ebbs away before him. "Come now ma, he said, and lookit that old bloomin' sky, with its three foot of mist and cloud over such a tearing of the guts, like God's hazy gaze choking right into your very old bones". How do I craft an external world of guns and steel and an internal world of fear and trembling?

Most important of all does it all stick together? Does my sky allow for sufficient gloom to permeate in the vision of my player, does the text get in the way or detract from that gloom? Is the music and sound ambient enough to draw the player into that world? Does the text have a style that fits the view? Does the text and image and sound have a relationship that reinforces one another? Is it a cohesive atmosphere?

Seems intuitive? Everyone who makes it gets it? But even if it is, and seems redundant, and extraneous, and whatever you want to call it, its still important to get the exact content that we provide the player clear.
/no real comment, this is more philobabble instead of moving forwards with design.
This ties to the above. What happens when a choice appears on screen? We don't choose in the same intuitive way that we do in real life but we judge, with cold and calm detachment, away from the scene. If you don't want detachment its not the choice itself but the content that comes before and after it that determines the attachment. Every choice is a breakaway. The player will step back for a moment and his eyes will linger on the button and think. Its also the moment when some players alt-tab to go read up the walk through. It's far from 'philobabble' but its a statement that we really cannot identify with a protagonist just through 'choices'. Yet people add choices for the sake of having choice itself, because they think that letting a player choose will create a bridge between the player and the protagonist. A choice always creates a detachment. What ensures attachment after that is all the content before and after leading up to that choice.
A VN with proper execution can make choosing tea or coffee seem like a significant decision because they are invested in the characters/scenario that this choice would make.
So you do agree with me that its about the content before and after the choice as opposed to the choice itself. The main reason why I wrote that part was to say that just because there's choice we can't expect the same amount of identification and empathy we get when we freely choose in real life. No matter how many options you give, until it reaches like the hundreds, this can never happen. Yet a focus on 'customization' occurs in some games which seem to think that it amounts to anything more than a novelty. As I said in my earlier post stuff Persona 4 is not a good example because it works since the themes, of the public social world conflicting with the symbolic inner world, make giving the game Dating Sim like mechanics and other stuff mean more than just being a simple way for players to 'customize their world'.
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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#62 Post by czxcjx »

Why can't closure be a win-condition especially in more action or logic-puzzle oriented VNs? Can't solving a riddle in a VN give greater immersion than simply saying so with text? Show, not tell. Feel, not tell.

And why shouldn't closure or "better" endings (defined by the player) be a win condition? If you're going to punish a medium for having choices with consequences why bother with the choices? Some VNs work with the dating because that is what they set out to do, it's relative to the genre that these values are decided instead of broad-brush swaths.
I elaborated on all that in my super long post here.

http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 3&start=30

I did agree that closure as win-condition makes sense in a game like a mystery or detective story. It doesn't though for Fate/Stay Night which is more than just an action story but also has clear dramatic arcs and moments. It just kills the flow in those cases.

With your second point. The problem is that besides mystery stories with a clear goal of solving the mystery, no narrative can ever be seen in terms of 'losing' or 'winning' or 'punishing' or 'rewarding'. The stories are valueless outside the subjectivity of the player. If a happy end feels unfulfilling then its going to be a 'punishment' to a player no matter what the game tells him. Likewise a game that has no closure can be an amazing game, like so many plays and stories have done before, end on a sudden note. The problem I have is that people think in terms of rewards and losses when an end is just an end. It means that the story has ended. It doesn't mean that you lost or won the game, made the right choices, made the wrong decisions, or done anything. You interpret it as the right choices or wrong decisions yourself. If a creator thinks in terms of this, of 'winning' a novel, then that's a very bad path to take for your narrative. Novels and stories aren't 'won' or 'lost'. Unconsciously you'll be favoring your biases and injecting those biases into your choice systems and coming up with bad narratives. The issue I have with dating games isn't that they are dating game or romance games (I give White Album 2 as the example again) but that their choice systems and 'win' conditions are rested on biases that they aren't aware of or that they simply ignore. Like if you 'win' a dating game because you keep giving a girl gifts that is an implicitly materialist message. There are tons of shades of grey and these aren't straightforward games with 'win conditions' and 'lose conditions'.
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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#63 Post by blankd »

I am not reading that horrible mess that is somehow a single paragraph since you apparently didn't heed what I said about those paragraphs.

Once again you post has so many words but say very little, I get this is NaNo but seriously.
If a creator thinks in terms of this, of 'winning' a novel, then that's a very bad path to take for your narrative. Novels and stories aren't 'won' or 'lost'.
Here's the problem, VNs are not strictly novels for reasons that no matter how you choose to cut it or how finely you attempt to distort the discussion with near purple prose distraction, they ARE still video games. Some more apparently so than others. Get over this. You say it's a collage of different elements, treat it as such.

I'd argue the choices aren't immersion breaking nor does every player make the choices with detachment. Making choices can be no more distracting than turning the page of a novel or pausing a movie at the leisure of the audience. (Those who look up FAQs are in of themselves "cheating" at a VN and possibly ruining it for themselves. Mentioning these FAQ users further shows that you do acknowledge a VN does have win/lose conditions in a sense.)

A VN designer's job is to ensure this easing of the state of mind is as seamless as possible. The actual act of detachment is immaterial to the game presented since how people make the choice is not universal and many have already understood the attachment/immersion of the game for doing this. There are poor ways to execute choices but choices wholesale are not a detriment or nearly as scientifically dissected from the perspective of the audience.

This is where the "video game" roots of the VN rears its head in that the best way to figure out how best to do choice placement and weight is to... PLAYTEST.
The stories are valueless outside the subjectivity of the player.
What a revelation, this is not exclusive to VNs.
Like if you 'win' a dating game because you keep giving a girl gifts that is an implicitly materialist message.
And like a billion action/adventure stories killing a conveniently irredeemable villain solves the problems of a respective fantasy world, but very rarely is that violence-solves-problems message questioned. There are things worth criticizing in each respective genre of VN but this is one of the issues that is implicit to the genre. In a dating game you may have the option to use gifts to convey something.

Also
It's far from 'philobabble' but its a statement that we really cannot identify with a protagonist just through 'choices'.
I call a lot of your filler text philobabble because you have a tendency to break out the thesaurus and wax poetry, often obscuring your actual point by jumping to fancier terms or allusions that water down your point to anyone who is not familiar with the reference.

Here's an example, you said:
So how would I compose a battle scene like that, which evokes all these 3 levels of Space, Objective Time and Subjective Time? How would I, thinking in these terms, compose a vision?
[you digress excessively]
Your little textual vacation about Space and Time with (for this discussion's sake) overly flowery explanation mean little when it comes to communication. Even less with the "rules of Visual Novels". Or if it isn't sinking in, if all your posts read the same why should I or anyone else care about any of them? What is your point and if you can't put it into words, well then get better at communication.

I know writing essays can wreck your ability to write succinctly, but do try. This is a discussion to talk about points. Stick to slimmer thesis statement mindsets if you have to.

*I likely missed addressing some points but I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering your longass posts. I do want to have this discussion, but with your manner of posting I'm not seeing the benefit of speaking with you.

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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#64 Post by Caveat Lector »

blankd wrote:Why can't closure be a win-condition especially in more action or logic-puzzle oriented VNs? Can't solving a riddle in a VN give greater immersion than simply saying so with text? Show, not tell. Feel, not tell.
Two examples come off the top of my head with that statement: The Loop and The Madness. Both require you to solve a series of puzzles in order to uncover a piece of the mystery (but differently in each--with The Loop, you need to pay attention to specific details in the second area you end up in so that you can correctly answer three questions in a row in the next location, and answering these brings you some closure in terms of who the antagonists is and why he does this; with The Madness, you directly interact with a series of obscure puzzles that relate to the MC's broken psyche and his back story, and with each puzzle you solve you either leave a particular area and/or you find out a bit more about his past and thus get closer to finding out what caused his insanity). In those two cases, with VN's/VN-hybrids along those lines, yes, I think that could work. It's basically like any other video game where you have to keep going if you want to win! Or, at the very least, find out what happens next (Gone Home, for example--the goal there is to explore and find out what happened to your sister rather than directly solve any puzzles; you can also find out a bit more about your father's writing career or your family in general, but those are optional). I don't see why it couldn't be applied to the kind of VN that requires some degree of observation and/or direct interaction as well.

However, that said, I'm not entirely on board with the idea of this condition being used for, say, a dating sim/romance-themed VN with an overarching story arc that relates directly to the main heroine but you absolutely MUST woo the others heroines in order to unlock the main path and thus the true end. I like the idea of maybe revealing a little bit of mystery per path and not necessarily revealing every single detail, but when it relates to the main premise, then it becomes somewhat irritating. Going through a lot of endings just to unlock the "golden ending" might sound fun in theory, but it can end up being more hard work than it really should be. Kana Little Sister had certain endings that were locked and you could only unlock under certain conditions, but the other endings still worked and could easily stand on their own (that said, though, I prefer the endings you had to unlock because Kana develops more as a character in those, and they feel like they reach the main heart of the story better: "Today, I saw the ocean...I'm not afraid anymore" :cry: ).

I just thought of something else: If one were to want to motivate the player to check out all possible ends, how would you do it? Include a CG gallery with unlockable CG's? A trophy gallery? Achievements? What purpose do you believe each end should serve apart from motivating players to "catch them all"? Do you believe there are benefits or drawbacks of locking certain routes until you clear another route?
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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#65 Post by Enigma »

Caveat Lector wrote: I just thought of something else: If one were to want to motivate the player to check out all possible ends, how would you do it? Include a CG gallery with unlockable CG's? A trophy gallery? Achievements? What purpose do you believe each end should serve apart from motivating players to "catch them all"? Do you believe there are benefits or drawbacks of locking certain routes until you clear another route?
I believe that just having a story people want to come back to is the most reliable method. Granted that's not exactly easy, but I think it's the best way to go about it.

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Re: Rules on the Visual Novel as a Medium

#66 Post by blankd »

Enigma wrote:
Caveat Lector wrote: I just thought of something else: If one were to want to motivate the player to check out all possible ends, how would you do it? Include a CG gallery with unlockable CG's? A trophy gallery? Achievements? What purpose do you believe each end should serve apart from motivating players to "catch them all"? Do you believe there are benefits or drawbacks of locking certain routes until you clear another route?
I believe that just having a story people want to come back to is the most reliable method. Granted that's not exactly easy, but I think it's the best way to go about it.
Obviously there is a certain degree of do or don't respective of genres. I feel like "raw" romance/dating games shouldn't really lock content. There are some obvious exceptions such as an MC time-travel or strong nonromance element (mystery, etc.), but if the MC is a "static" person it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to lock certain routes.

Easy benefits would be control over the player's "path" as well as information. Cons are that if you screw up the player won't care for "when it gets good" or to have something recontextualized. Another potential con is the tedium of having to trudge through old content or getting more obscure endings. (This is why I emphasize playtesting)

That being said, I do think "secret" characters or routes can be a good idea, be it for humor's sake or doing something that is a bit "left field" of the other routes but there should be a balance of how many locked doors there are. Regardless there should be internal consistency unless the game itself has causality or unreliable POVs as a plotpoint. (You mentioned a game earlier that completely dropped plots based on route).

A good story can definitely get a player coming back, but I also think that sometimes a good world can get players to keep playing. But that sort of thing is easier said than done. 8V

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