Dungeon Master - A multi-user roleplaying experience

[papillon]

Okay, so, splitting off from the thread of doom, I've been pondering some things that could be done to create a genre that is not a MUD, not a VN, not a freeform roleplay experience, and potentially playable to a wider or at least different range of the population than typical VNs are.

Basically, I'm envisioning an online RPG system that people can create 'adventures' for, like old D&D modules with all the numbered rooms and stuff. Each room will have information for that room and the objects/monsters within it.

When it's actually used, you have two players, the Hero and the GM.

The Hero sees a screen that looks like a traditional Visual Novel. There is a background image and text to read and choices to make. They are occasionally prompted, and those prompts include a list of the most common actions, as well as a 'Custom' button. When they click that, they can type in some other command.

Go East
Go West
Go North
Custom (player types 'I examine the ceiling')

The GM, however, sees a much bigger and more complicated screen. In one panel, they see a smaller version of what the player sees (complete with ability to rollback) so that they can check on the player's experience.

In another panel they have all the different bits of 'canned text' for the room that they can drop in in response to the player's actions. Prewritten descriptions for actions the players are likely to take are sitting here for the GM to edit and copy-paste to the player.

In another panel the GM has some sort of scratch notepad to keep track of things the player has and hasn't done, or things the GM wants to do later.

In another panel the GM has buttons that cause things in the game to happen - adding a surprise monster, changing the currently displayed graphic of an NPC, a dice-roller, declaring Game Over if the character dies...

There is a constant give and take between the player and the GM. The player issues commands, the GM provides the response. There's always a little lag, but not usually huge amounts of it - comparable to a MUD. However, the GM doesn't have to be an amazingly creative writer, they can use the canned text much of the time, just like running a game from an old module.

(An auto-mapping function for the player might also be nice...)

I have no idea if this is even vaguely feasible in RenPy. It would certainly take a lot of doing. But the end result would be interesting.

... It's also possible that this is way too much like a MUD. I'm not sure, I don't actually MUD. I hang out on a MOO, doing entirely freeform roleplay. I don't know how prewritten quests in a MUD function.

[monele]

*lurv* <3

But only if we use the occasion to bring new environments to the table and not things we could already do with existing games/social software. Though playing a D&D game with less focus on fighting dicerolls could be nice too

[Jake]

It's something I've considered from time to time from a different point of view - from the point of view of GM tools for traditional roleplaying, rather than specifically trying to make a one-on-one new-game-type thing. I'd imagined a tool which was pretty similar, only not necessarily graphical, had more than one 'player' user and I was thinking probably ran over IRC for ease of networking and availability. The GM would have all the game-rules-specific mechanics as buttons/drop-downs/etc., and be able to direct text at any given subset of the players as he wished, so he could - for example - make 'notice' checks without the players being aware of anything and then relay the results to just the player/s who noticed whatever it was. It strikes me that while the mode of use differs a bit, ultimately a lot of the coding would be the same between this and the solution you suggest.

Of course, if it were me doing it it'd be Silhouette rather than anything like DnD, which probably makes it a little less suitable for one-on-one mostly-mechanics heroics...

(I'd been in two minds about a graphical front-end; I tend to be of the opinion that images tend to distract players into believing that whatever scene they're in looks exactly like the picture you showed them, and waste time asking about that collection of pebbles in the bottom left which is really just a collection of pebbles and they assume is important just because it's in the picture. But then, the last time I got to do any proper roleplaying was many years ago, so I don't know how it'd go with people my age now...)

I have no idea if this is even vaguely feasible in RenPy. It would certainly take a lot of doing. But the end result would be interesting.

I'm suspicious that it would be easier to do it with a specialised client written from scratch, just because then you wouldn't be fighting with Ren'Py functionality like rollback all the time, and would be able to properly integrate networking into the whole experience.

... It's also possible that this is way too much like a MUD. I'm not sure, I don't actually MUD. I hang out on a MOO, doing entirely freeform roleplay. I don't know how prewritten quests in a MUD function.

In my experience, the prewritten stuff in the MUDs I've tried has all been entirely automated, so something like this would be significantly different in that respect, at least. I tried a MUX once which was a little more hands-on GM-wise, but never really got into the game in that one thanks to timezone issues...

[papillon]

Well, if you build very non-VN-like gaming tools, I'm still interested, my husband is always grumbling about how all the options he can find for managing tabletop maps online currently suck (And we're not exactly likely to all sign up for WotC's new subscription-based service).

What HE wants is something along the lines of what you described, plus a map that all the players can see which is covered by fog that only the GM can remove to reveal more of it as they explore, plus player miniatures on the map that the players can move. And no graphics, other than the player minis.

But yeah, this concept is probably better suited for an entirely from scratch build rather than a renpy modification. Not only would it need the player and GM tools, it would also need specifications for building different adventures to run with the toolset...

[Adorya]

How would the multiplayer (at least the dual users) be handled?
Since the GM can't play on the same computer of the player I suppose IP connection will be used? Speed and security problems are going to pop up in that case...

[eyerouge]

Jake:
If you'd do it for IRC, would you write it as an eggdrop or script it as a mIRC bot or as a bot for another client? I've thought about doing it in mIRC a couple a years ago since it's very codeable and I love irc

the map thingie
If I'm not totally of, I think there already exists a thingie with a map support, notepad, diecerolls etc etc.. it's commercial software for windows, made for RPG players. I just don't remember it's exact functions or name, but I'll try to find out.. know I downloaded a copy but due to my change from windows to ubuntu it could take me a while to dig it up...

edit: here it is >> http://www.fantasygrounds.com/ ...dont know if it was what some of you were aiming for, probably not, but not far from it

and then we have http://www.openrpg.com/ + http://rptools.net/doku.php

[papillon]

Yes, we've tried fantasy grounds. It's better than some but it's still not enough to make my husband happy. I forget the exact details of his complaint though.

edit: he sez "Poor cut & paste, too much space devoted to interface, windows didn't resize consistently, new rulesets involved arcane XML to make, netcode didn't work right."

[Jake]

If you'd do it for IRC, would you write it as an eggdrop or script it as a mIRC bot or as a bot for another client? I've thought about doing it in mIRC a couple a years ago since it's very codeable and I love irc

Personally, if I were doing such a thing I'd write a standalone client that connected to IRC independently - firstly because I'm a lot more comfortable writing standalone stuff in a language I like than mIRC script (which I've used, but didn't really like that much) but secondly because I don't use mIRC, I use ChatZilla, so mIRC add-ons aren't much use to me.

I'd definitely not go for a bot approach though - it wouldn't give me the interface I'd want. I was thinking of something far more akin to a GM screen than a diceroller - something which would sit between the GM and the players and add a load of game-running UI conveniences rather than just something to crunch game mechanics. Basically, it's my opinion that roleplaying is distracted by dierolls and rules rather than enhanced by them - they're a necessary evil, but the more we can hide the rules from the player and get on with the story part, the better!

[Hentai Senshi]

How would the multiplayer (at least the dual users) be handled?
Since the GM can't play on the same computer of the player I suppose IP connection will be used? Speed and security problems are going to pop up in that case...

Any net connection that gives acceptable performance for web browsing should give acceptable performance for an RPG client assuming that the RPG client's competently written and the GM doesn't decide to make all monsters 1280x1024. (And one could have an option for it to automatically compress everything into low-quality tiny jpegs for the slower players.)

Security's still an issue, but not an insurmountable one.

[eyerouge]

Basically, it's my opinion that roleplaying is distracted by dierolls and rules rather than enhanced by them - they're a necessary evil, but the more we can hide the rules from the player and get on with the story part, the better!

Yups. Probably one of the main reasons for why a lot of people don't play RPG:s as well - the rules are a too heavy layer for them to handle or make an effort with. In either case, even if one is an experienced RPG player, it makes little sense to spend half the time you play at rule-handling instead of RP.

Thing is there are also extremely "light" RPG systems that only deal with like 1-2 dices tops, or no dices, and have just a hand full of variables, where each is in a range between, say, 1-5 or something. Those systems have rules that tale up just one sheet of paper. Sure, they're maybe not something that a d20-guy would prefer since he's already d20, but I really think their concept is appealing as so far they aim to minimize rulehandling and make the RPG into a story experience.

[monele]

It's a matter of evolution. If you start with RPGs, rules will be holding your hand, telling you what's possible and what's not. Once you get the hang of it and know what's *fun* and have a good idea of what you can do within a world, you don't need the rules that much I suppose.
Then again, some people just like to throw dices... because it's also fun

[Jake]

Then again, some people just like to throw dices... because it's also fun

It's not so much throwing dice itself which frustrates me.

On one hand, some RPGs are... pretty random, and that can discourage people from doing stuff which should really be commonplace. "I'd consider jumping across the gap, but... well, there's a one in six chance I'll randomly slip and fall to my death, so I think I'll forget about following the guy who not only stole all my stuff but also killed my horse and totally enraged me." The expectation is that every sixth player jumping the gap will fall to their doom!

On the other hand, players will often game the numbers rather than roleplay, once dice are directly involved. "OK, next turn, that orc on the ridge will be alerted by the sound of combat, so he'll be able to dodge - so I'll forget the goblins right in front of me, they only have a 20% chance of causing a wound, and take a shot with my bow at the orc before he gets harder to hit."

On the hypothetical third hand, players will often ascribe meaning to dice-rolling, getting metagame information they shouldn't have. They're walking along in an underground temple when they hear the GM rolling dice, and suddenly it's "I pause and start to edge slowly forward, examining the corridor for traps". The GM can mask this by rolling dice all the time randomly for no reason, but that gets tedious too.

This kind of thing is pretty unavoidable for the most part in face-to-face traditional tabletop gaming, but if you're going to play over the Internet anyway, then it seems to me that it's only sensible to take advantage of the fact that the players can't see or hear you rolling dice to hide the mechanics from them as much as possible.

[Adorya]

If the GM didn't type script event in advance, the player noticing a "pause" (or model charging, loading screen...) in the game flow will automatically be on guard so it still won't work (also the player can have some copy/paste text ready to prevent being "trapped" during those "pause" and before the GM submit the event.

It's the neverending player vs GM tabletop rule discussion
(Of course a good TGCM or FUIM can solve the problem...)

[monele]

I'm reminded of some video games which loaded in a very obvious way before you'd encounter enemies... bad giveaway XD

Jake : the interpretation of dicerolls is really up to the GM and players. I tend to think good roleplayers know when to ignore the dice. I've read many articles saying a good player should never lose a character because of a stupid bad roll... the GM should ensure that (*he* could roll the dice, unseen by the players). But if a GM saved everyone, there wouldn't be tension anymore... so a GM should still "punish" players doing foolish things. In other words, kill the player who did a bad roll when trying to take on an army of 20 orcs on his own. Save the player who solved a puzzle, roleplayed his character correctly and could have died to a silly trap on the way out.

I also think the dice can bring a randomness that might not be present if people just kept interpreting things as they see fit. Kinda like playing a gamebook without rolling dice. You just keep picking the "I win!" choice. In the end, that's not very fulfilling as you pretty much get the "best" path... no personal version of the story.
To reuse your large pit example, maybe missing the roll wouldn't mean death but not quite making it and hanging at the edge. Other characters/players could then help him out... or another roll could decide if he can get out of there. If you add a few more rolls, the chances to miss them all are smaller, right?

[Jake]

Jake : the interpretation of dicerolls is really up to the GM and players. I tend to think good roleplayers know when to ignore the dice. I've read many articles saying a good player should never lose a character because of a stupid bad roll... the GM should ensure that (*he* could roll the dice, unseen by the players). But if a GM saved everyone, there wouldn't be tension anymore... so a GM should still "punish" players doing foolish things.

Except where the dice are transparent, then the incredibly-lucky stupid player is just as much of a problem as the unlucky bad roleplayer. If the player does something outlandish, rolls a natural top score and the GM then punishes him in some other way for doing the stupid thing, he's going to feel cheated 'cause the dice said he pulled it off fine. GMing is mostly about entertaining the players, so it's bad to do things which obviously directly negatively affect a player's enjoyment of the game (and playing 'unfairly' will do this, even if GM fiat is only 'unfair' when the player suffers from it) but also allowing one player to spoil the enjoyment of the rest of the party is bad.

And yeah - good roleplayers will just ignore the dice, but there are far fewer of those around than average roleplayers... I'm not really suggesting that it's only a problem with bad players, because most people, in my experience, will allow the game mechanics and the die rolls to colour their actions, even if not consciously.

To reuse your large pit example, maybe missing the roll wouldn't mean death but not quite making it and hanging at the edge. Other characters/players could then help him out... or another roll could decide if he can get out of there. If you add a few more rolls, the chances to miss them all are smaller, right?

Yeah - but the whole situation is avoided by using a system which has a little more skill-consistency to the rolls in the first place... the only reason it came up was because most of the few-rolls systems I've seen have also had bad representation of the extremes, there's only so many ways you can scale and manipulate the dice to have a normal-curve probability and still not involve much rolling.

(It's one of the reasons I like the Silhouette system, really - higher skill in an area only increases potential effects a little bit, but mostly makes use of that skill more consistent.)