People quitting a project

[Auro-Cyanide]

Yep, and I've done it too when a person made choices that I disagreed with. It's not that big of a deal. It's natural for people to change their minds and drift away (mind you, I'm not talking about people who are being paid. To flake after you have been paid is just... well, it's theft and those people are horrible). Friends especially are not the best people to work with since your judgement is clouded by your friendship and you don't accurately measure how good they are to work with and if you are compatiable.

The majority of projects will have people drop out. You should always be prepared for it and don't hold it against people. If you put the shoe on the other foot, you have probably bailed on things too. It happens. It's a lot more difficult to find people you can work with well than you think. But unless you want to do things alone forever, you'll keep looking.

[Reikun]

I, too, have bailed and been bailed on.

In the case of being bailed on, I usually don't get upset. People have lives and it's not as though I have absolutely nothing else to do. If I'm dedicated to the project (whatever it may be) I know I'll get it done with or without help anyway. I think people who volunteer their time to help you have every right to walk away from a project at anytime because they could be doing their own project but instead chose to help you. I never expect people who volunteer to help on projects to actually follow through. This way you never get disappointed, because if they do help it's awesome, but if they don't then no big deal (: However, if the project was a collaboration from the start and then they bailed... I don't speak to them for a while xD /immature

If I have to bail on someone, I just tell them exactly why I can no longer help with the project, whether I lost interest, don't have time, or whatever excuse I think I have. I know it's not cool to bail on people, but from the view of someone volunteering their energy for someone else's project I can sympathize with them bailing if they feel like they're only giving to the project and getting nothing in return (which is why I don't work with certain people I know IRL)...

The second time, we created the characters, the setting, everything together. We had meetings, we discussed things and took notes, I invested *a lot* on those characters. I waited, and waited and waited and waited.... and in the end I said "You know what? Screw it, I'll write it myself! You go back to write all your stories you never finish." And I did my best to learn how to write decently and I'm still trying to write it every now and then. I sent the first draft of the first week of the story to her for revision like a month ago, and she never got back to me with feedback.I guess she was too busy writing and drawing Homestuck fanarts for Tumblr events =_=. I love her, I'm just never going to try doing things with her again =/

Aww, Deji... ;___; I have a friend like this too. Even after we invested months and months on a story, he lost interest in the characters he contributed to the story and didn't want to work on it anymore. I wouldn't have been bothered if he didn't want to work on it for other reasons, but just the fact that he lost interest in the characters he created himself makes me really sad >___>

[Green Skies]

Although I haven't finished a project yet, I would still like to put in a good word with working with a friend.
I love having someone there (in person) to rant to, to discuss plans with, and to stay motivated for.
It doesn't work for everybody, and it really depends on who you are...but flying solo is only great for those that don't doze off. XD

[Celianna]

Family and friends will want discounts and it general will be more demanding and treat you worse than total strangers.

That is so true and always pisses me off. I'm the artist of the family, and I do graphic design mostly. My father has a ton of businesses under his belt, and is always bothering me to make him a logo, a business card - hell , the whole package, which I charge a lot for from actual clients. He wants it for free.

Now I just automatically say no. I don't care if you're family, my time isn't free.

@OP: never ever rely on people. Simply put, you can't, it will always end up with one of you splitting up. Always. Unless you are in an actual 9 to 5 job with a paycheck every month (working on VNs that is), don't count on you guys ever sticking together for a long time.

The best way to work is to work alone, and to simply get favours from other people. I'm an artist, but not a programmer or composer, so I trade my talents for theirs, and have gotten a lot of work done just like that. People won't really bail out on you if they have to make just 1 thing only (1 sprite, 1 song, 1 piece of script etc.) - but they will if they have to make multiple things. Of course this could mean getting inconsistent work if you only ever ask 1 thing from various artists, but as long as you only request 1 thing at a time from them, you can keep coming back to them. As long as there's no real obligation, then it's more likely they'll stick around long enough to help you out.

Case in point: I had recruited two composers. One was supposed to be my actual composer who would make 10 songs for me. Then the second composer I sort of got because he wanted to help out. Guess who made the most songs and finished up all his work? Yup, the second guy who simply offered his work, and wasn't obligated to do anything. The 'main' composer is still working on his 4th song which he's been doing for more than 4 months now, while the other guy whipped out 8 songs in under a month simply because I didn't expect anything more from him.

It's strange really, but as soon as I'm obligated to do something, my inspiration stops dead in its tracks and my work production comes to a complete halt. If I have no such obligations, my work production skyrockets. Plainly said, I work more when it's not expected of me. I think that's true for a lot of people.

Either way, don't team up with friends, and don't hold grudges against them for bailing out. I'm 100% sure you would have done the same if you lost all interest in the project.

[sake-bento]

I've worked with friends in the past, and it often does wind up kind of awkward when they're not interested and sort of just float away after a while. I've got a couple different projects already that have cycled through several artists. BUT, if you have friends who are interested in the same thing you are, then you're totally set. Which is why I love Deji. <3 It's great to have a friend to talk to about your ideas, problems, silly things that happened while working, or otherwise. I've also found that a motivated friend tends to create something closer to my ideal than someone I commission who's just doing it "as a job."

I'm not sure if this thread is in the right section... Feel free to move it if it isn't.

Moved to Creator Discussion, since it's largely about creating visual novels.

[Auro-Cyanide]

By the way, I think it's fine to have a partner that happens to be a friend, just don't looking to your friends for partners. A friendship isn't a working relationship, so unless you have worked with them before and know you both gel, it might not work out. There probably a great person, just might not be a great partner too.

[Sapphi]

It's strange really, but as soon as I'm obligated to do something, my inspiration stops dead in its tracks and my work production comes to a complete halt. If I have no such obligations, my work production skyrockets. Plainly said, I work more when it's not expected of me. I think that's true for a lot of people.

This is me exactly. This is why I'm extremely hesitant to post WIP threads. Throughout my entire life, I have had no problem self-motivating UNTIL I announced what I was doing publicly. A lot of people say they need other people's interests to get them motivated, but I'm just the opposite. Once I feel like the public-at-large is waiting for something from me, I become very self-conscious and resentful.

Also, when I have an obligation for one project, suddenly every other project is ten times more interesting that the one I am supposed to be working on. When I meet my obligation, the interest fades too. I don't know if I just need more discipline or if it's a psychological problem... but the surefire way to force myself to produce things is to imagine the person I'm working for getting angry at me and hating me for the rest of their life. Suddenly, it's easy to work again ^_^;

[OtomeWeekend]

I worked with my BEST FRIEND on my *supposed* to be 1st project, her being the writer, me for the rest but she got angry for *even now* I don't know reasons taking claims on everything and telling me to drop the project :'D I think I made a post about it months ago. We never talked since then(apparently since I deleted her in my gm talk and facebook because she was spamming me with nonsense). I guess it's better to collab with a stranger since we'll both have a "no pain, no gain". :/

I then decided I'd work on my own from then but I lack this so-called "firm decisions" that I might be needing someone to collab once again Q_Q

btw, I can't agree no more with Celianna. That was very me too. :'D

[jack_norton]

As papillon says contracts are useless. I have someone who signed a contract that vanished right in the middle of my 3d boxing manager game. But I've learned the lesson, never attempt to make a big game anymore without working with people near you, or that are 100% sure to finish the task (very hard).

[Anna]

I would take out my whip and-- uh, I mean, talk to her.

Anyway, the person I mainly work with has been my real life friend for about 15 years or so and we know each other too well to work on a project the other doesn't like. So yeah, so much for that.

However, recently I'm working with a musician and I'm not sure if he'll keep it up, since he needs me to be online to be motivated and work. This is kind of bad since I am always busy and not on messengers much.

IF he bails out, then so be it, he still did some of the music and I'll probably find someone else or do the rest myself.

[Patty]

@Wright1000: Aside from the VN thing, she's a pretty good friend and a fun person to be with. I think I gotta concentrate on doing this even with the sudden change. How do you concentrate on writing the story? :l

@ScottySeng: I will still write her name in the credits (Hopefully my willpower will be enough to finish... The game is a bit...ambitious. :l). She still contributed to some part, and I would like to give credit where it's due.

@SusanTheCat: I think it was just the interest getting smaller and not realizing how much work is put into making a visual novel. I admit, I also kind of underestimated the work into making a visual novel... Bailing on others feels bad, and when you think about it, sometimes you really need to bail... There could be a good reason, or maybe you just don't feel for the project anymore... Thanks for showing the other side of the situation.

@VagueZ: Yep, the visual novel was for fun (we didn't dream about being commercial). And we're good. I'm happy this situation didn't make this awkward for us.

@redeyesblackpanda: The mental image of my friend smashing my computer made me giggle. Curious, what contingency plans do you make?

@moPark: Is it hard to get started again? Kind of curious on that...

@Thelo: Wow... Thirty people... ._. That's a lot.

@Deji: It's hard finding people to work with. Was writing hard?

@Taleweaver: What motivated you to continue fighting for your projects?

@papillon: People disappearing even when paid... That makes me want to charge in on them. ^_^;; Is that a totally unavoidable situation? :l

@jack_norton: I didn't know there were people who did that... That just rendered contracts useless. :l Now I feel angry at those people even if I never met them. XD

@Auro-Cyanide: I agree about flaking after getting paid. In looking for good people to work with, is it just a matter of trial and error? Or just working at first and seeing if it works?

@Reikun: Now that I think about it... Bailing in the long run is better since you clarified to the person that you're bailing, and also stating your reason/s for doing so. It's difficult if the person is confused if someone's bailing, or just want a break, or is just being confusing. ^_^

@Green Skies: Working with another person makes me more disciplined. Without someone, I sometimes feel tempted to do some art when working on the script. I want to finish the script first before ever doing the art though. It would be a waste of energy if I did some art, and figured some of the ones I made were stuff I didn't actually need.

@Celianna: I think I can relate to the obligation thing. I work better when my partner or leader isn't very demanding or bossy... Sometimes it makes me want to work because he/she's patient and understanding... Maybe I've been handling some stuff wrong.
I'm also pretty amazed by one of your composers who made 8 songs in under one month.

@sake-bento: It's also great to have a friend to just laugh about some parts of your script. It's a nice break.
Thank you for moving this topic I was really confused on where to put it.

@Sapphi: Posting in WIP threads is kind of nerve-wracking... At least that's my opinion. It makes me feel obligated to post updates a lot. :l And I want to create a WIP thread when I'm nearly done, less pressure. ^^

@OtomeWeekend: That's...horrible. :l I agree, making decisions is hard. (I'm an indecisive person. ^.^;;)

@Anna: I can kinda of relate to...the musician. ^_^;; Some people motivate me and some don't. Maybe he finds it easier to work when you're online...something like going into "working-mode"...

----

@Everyone: Lots of text on top. I didn't really expect a lot of replies. I got shocked and panicked about replying.. ^^;;
Thanks for sharing your sides. It was fascinating reading about your experiences and how you handled them. It made me think about how I handled mine, and what to do when it happens again.

[Taleweaver]

@Taleweaver: What motivated you to continue fighting for your projects?

They were worth it. Each and every project. Even those I finally ended up dropping out of frustration; I really should have completed games like "Foxtaile" or "Inside/Outside" and was angry at myself afterwards, so angry that when I finally came to a similar situation in "The Dreaming", I just went ahead and published the game without completed art and using a few of the existing character sketches in the place of the "real art". And what happened? It became the game I got more credit for than ever before. This just goes to show that if you really, really believe in something, you have an obligation towards yourself to get it done.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Auro-Cyanide: I agree about flaking after getting paid. In looking for good people to work with, is it just a matter of trial and error? Or just working at first and seeing if it works?

It's trail and error in a way. That and practice. There are of course signs to look for and make sure you chat with someone before agreeing to help out. Signs to look out for if what they have in the way of completed and uncompleted projects. Completed projects are a significant plus. Uncompleted projects are a minus, the more there are the worse it is. It generally shows that that person may have the ability to work on long term projects right at that moment. If they are new and haven't done anything, check how ambitious they are. If they are looking to do a super awesome best ever game, then they are looking at things unrealistically and will be unlikely to follow through. Look at their history of work and what they are able to produce. Check that they have similar interests, are polite and mature. Makes conflict resolution easier. If you are not to sure, sign up for smaller projects with a person or people to get to know more about them. A project that takes a couple months will tell you a lot about the people and whether you could work with them on something longer. I would presume you are looking for a partnership rather than someone telling you what to do or vice versa, so you need to find someone that compliments you. Don't be too quick to jump on a project if you are not sure you will be able to stick with it. Being aware of who you are teaming up with will help reduce the risk of bailing.

The first project I worked on didn't go that well, and didn't get far. It was probably unlikely to work from the beginning. I worked on a couple other projects and I recently teamed up with Camille. Even though the story is primarily hers, I haven't felt happier to work on something (Previously I have felt like I have had to compromise on what I like to do what others like, which isn't that bad, but this is just more comfortable). We have similar ideals and haven't really had any conflicts about anything. She is very driven and works really hard, plus she can do a lot of things I can't (I just draw XD). So it has worked really well for me.

[Deji]

@Deji: It's hard finding people to work with. Was writing hard?

It was easier than I expected o_o (writing, not finding people xD ). It's hard for me to get in the mindset for writing lately, though, I've been way too busy with work and now I'm too tired to tackle writing before going to sleep. I plan to resume writing when I'm less busy, though (:
I kind of wanted to ask people to write for me before I started writing myself, but I noticed it's easier to find an artist for a writer's story than a writer for an artist's story ^^; (I guess it's easier for writers to just write their own stories instead of takling other people's stories, while artists will draw anything as long as they like the story/characters/can do it).

BTW, my friend still help me a bit every now and then, though. I bounce ideas with her and stuff, so it's not *that* terrible,I just wished she'd give me feedback on my stupid draft before I just say "screw it!" and publish it here for feedback without going through her first ;_;. I really wanted to be able to draw something we worked on together, but well, it seems it's not a thing we can do as friends ^^;

Which is why I love Deji. <3

I love you too. <3

[Silvere]

I guess it's easier for writers to just write their own stories.

Maybe it's because the writer having a better feeling about the whole project as HE/SHE decides(most of the times at least ) what is gonna happen.
I personally wouldn't like it to write a story about a character where everything may change then and then, or maybe another character I wrote suddenly being perfect for a dieing scene and thus I have to make it so...
Basically I think it's just about the "freedom" the writer has. An artist wants a story about a Girl loving 3 boys? Well, no problem! Let's write something epic and heartbreaking! An artist wants a story about a Girl loving 3 boys while "boy1" will cause her to fall in love first because he just is too cute followed by "boy2" fighting "boy1" over the girl.... Hell no.


If the Story lets enough freedom / really attracts the writer then there shouldn't be a problem, but as it IS time consuming they most likely don't wanna write for something half-heartedly as there are maybe some things written which don't appeal at all, be it just the pillow used for murder instead of candle-holder.


Edit: Not to mention that it IS A WHOLE LOT easier to write things which originated out of your OWN mind. Don't think anyone is gonna say anything against that, righto~ ? =D

Meep.