Games with agendas and propaganda games

[Taleweaver]

We've had this discussion several times, mostly when someone had a game in development or published that fit the matter, but so far, I don't think there's ever been a real discussion about the topic itself.

To start off with, this: Extra Credits addressing the subject itself.

Now, towards us, as a game-making community. How do you feel about games that try to further an agenda - vegetarianism, religion (or both of them), feminism, LGBT rights, copyright liberalization, banning pornography, or whatever it may be? It's obvious that a VN is a good medium to transport a message, but what if the purpose of said message isn't mainly to entertain but to cause a change in thought and behavior? Valid or not? Should we commend people doing that for their devotion to a cause, or should we call them out on what they are doing for attempting to mess with our heads?

I think this discussion is important because we've had quite a few examples of such games in the last few years, and I'd really like to know how this community thinks about it.

[PyTom]

For me, the presence or absence of a message is almost orthogonal to how much I enjoy a game. There are some messages I find so repugnant - misanthropic environmentalism that would have us all starve being the big one - that it would cause me to put a game down. But by and large, the message in the game is something I will consider - if I feel the game is respecting my time by playing it.

And that's one of the big things - there's a big difference between a game that subtly integrates a message into good story telling and reasonable production values, and one that rubs the player's nose in the message of the week. I'm not saying there isn't a place for the latter, but I do think that it's important not to represent the latter as the former.

[HumbertTheHorse]

Now, towards us, as a game-making community. How do you feel about games that try to further an agenda - vegetarianism, religion (or both of them), feminism, LGBT rights, copyright liberalization, banning pornography, or whatever it may be?

Just to show how prevalent and hidden propaganda is, which is a pejorative by the way, every item you listed is exactly the opposite of the propaganda seen in 99% games. Most media of all types promote meat eating, using religion as an excuse to kill religious people, masculine traits above feminism, heterosexual relationships, copyright protection, sexual stimulation.

You will find in life the greatest propaganda isn't produced to change the way people think but to keep them thinking the same despite life experience.

[papillon]

Most media of all types promote meat eating, using religion as an excuse to kill religious people, masculine traits above feminism, heterosexuality relationships, copyright protection, sexual stimulation.

While I wouldn't agree that most media promotes all the things just mentioned, it IS true that almost all media is pushing a certain set of cultural norms, sometimes without the writer even realising it, because they're just writing what's 'normal' to them.

You're more likely to notice it if it's promoting something you either think is abnormal or are sensitive about. Or, of course, if it's Anvilicious.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Hah, I would like to see something that ISN'T pushing an agenda of some sort. Everything is trying to send a specific message about something. Social indoctrination is woven into everything. Memes (cultural packets of information, the social equivalent of genes) are a big part of making us think the way we do. Every single one of us is pushing some sort of message when we create. It's the point of what we do. Trying to escape that would be like trying to escape human nature. We as creators can only do our best to create what we believe in. I can't ask anything more from anyone else because then it would be ME forcing my ideas on THEM. I can give my opinion on something, I can choose to play it or not, but I can not forbid someone from making something (obviously). As long as it's within the law it's protected by free speech and that is more valuable than any type of concept of shutting down messages certain people happen to disagree with. It is up to the audience to judge what is worth consuming and it is up to us as a society to judge what is beneficial or not. There is no such thing as a perfect state of humanity. Everything will always be filtered through our perception. Morality, while there being some black and white, is far from an absolute. You only have to look at the way humanity's perception of the world has changed over the years. I think that is what Extra Credits message was about, being aware of the media we consume and questioning it's values against our own, not something against agendas themselves. I also think apart of their message, aimed at creators, is not to create before carefully thinking about why you are doing what you are doing. Are you happy to spread the message you are, or are you defaulting to it because you didn't think about it?

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Hah, I would like to see something that ISN'T pushing an agenda of some sort. Everything is trying to send a specific message about something. Social indoctrination is woven into everything.

Exactly. The whole Nature vs. Nurture argument. The environment we are nurtured in indoctrinates us all to certain ways of thinking that we just take for granted.

Almost everyone has a strong message they wish to disseminate to everyone else, even if they don't consciously realize it. Look at the work of any prolific story-teller in any medium and you will see clear patterns and themes emerge - a question or problem they keep addressing over and over again in different forms. In layman's terms, most authors are pushing the same moral in every fairy tale they create. Most of the time these are subtle themes that are not blatant or shoved in the face of the reader or consumer.

I do have a problem with propaganda and agendas pushed on people without their permission. Meaning creators should be upfront that they have an agenda when presenting a game that pushes one. I believe the best themes merely get player's to ask a question. Just get them thinking. Not try and force a presented solution to be accepted. The creator should be asking upfront - "Are you willing to hear an alternate interpretation or belief on this subject?"

Bioshock is anti-objectivism. But it doesn't say that outright. It does what is most effective - letting the player reach their own conclusions at each step in the progress to the central tenet. They lead the horse to the water but don't make it drink - in other words. Even better is the fact they don't strawman the opposition - they show why objectivism is a genuinely attractive philosophy and leave some open debate about whether or not such a society could work.

Bioshock is careful not to push the other extreme though. They rather brilliantly (infamously) point out to the player than self-less humanitarianism ignoring all individual self-interest makes you a sucker too. Also, you can be acting in what you believe is individual self-interest and in reality be someone else's pawn because they indoctrinated you into believing their agenda is your own. The sequel even explores the opposite of objectivism as a counter-point. Ultimately the Bioshock series is pushing an agenda of moderation - warning against being totally selfish or totally selfless. The sequel also makes the point to the player that others will watch the actions you take in society and be influenced by them for good or ill. They are advising you to be conscious of the environment you are creating because it is "nurturing" those that come afterward.

I know some people will say - "But if you warn people ahead of time about your propaganda or agenda, they may not play the game and thus never see the message!" That's true. But if they aren't willing to hear your arguments in favor of the agenda, they were never going to be convinced or listen to anything you had to say anyway. And forcible proselytizing or pushing an agenda can do more harm than good. Many people hate certain agendas just because of how often they've been shoved in their face. Because the first group of people that promoted that agenda to them lacked all subtlety and grace they're likely to never accept that agenda because from then on out they will be actively ANGRY at that agenda for being rude or in their face.

It may be a losing battle anyway - according to a lot of research a person's worldview is cemented by the age of 22. After that it take a dramatic and tremendous upheaval of their life to make them change their mind. A death, trauma, crisis, etc. something that shatters previously held convictions.

So perhaps the only truly effective propaganda and agenda pushing would be towards children and teens - which is inherently creepy to think about.

[Samu-kun]

With games pushing a certain agenda, I think the determining factor for me and for the majority of the world is whether I agree with the viewpoint in the game. If I see a propaganda piece for something I support, I'd be behind it, but everyone who disagrees will hate it. I imagine making such a work will be a kind of hit or miss. If you have supporters, they'll like it, but detractors will hate it.

A visual novel isn't just limited to fiction. A documentary-type visual novel about political issues would actually be easier to make than a fictitious story in terms of art assets. Plus, you'd be able to get around many copyright issues through the fair use doctrine (political commentary).

I doubt such a work would change anyone's minds on the subject and trying to do more than rally your supporters might be a waste of time, unless you're really good at subtle persuasion.

Also, current Lemmasoft rules probably don't allow such games to be posted here, but we've never seen a thread locked for that yet.

[Blane Doyle]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a fiction game having a clear message or moral (this falls into having a clear agenda). Most fiction does in some way or another, be it something as small as "be nice to people and they'll be nice back" (hello most children's books) to "the greater benefits of alternative power in a futuristic world". Though, in my opinion, some of the best fiction makes it so the message does not make the story unenjoyble, doesn't make the characters just vessels for that message, and/or presents it either in the background or eases into it as they go, as well as presents it in a way that lets you come to your own conclusion.

I also agree with LWR's Bioshock analogy, very well written! Better than what I could come up with right now anyway.

But when it gets to the point that it is bashing you over the head as "THIS IS RIGHT LISTEN TO ME YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG" with it from page 1, or any any point really... yeah... that's a bit of a put down. A message to pass along and let someone gain their opinion is one thing, trying to present your view as the right one and forcing it on other... not so much.

Propaganda in itself is usually the above in my mind.
Granted, propaganda can also hidden, small, and hard to see sometimes as well.

Short version: Messages and agendas's are ok so long as they don't ruin enjoyment or become anviliscious to me (though some anvils do need to be dropped i suppose). Go ahead and make a story about how becoming a vegetarian helped someone's life, how a sexuality is a-ok, the benefits of something on the economy, and what not to share that message, so long as you pull it off well. It's perfectly possible to do that, I have faith in you guys! Propaganda is technically made to force a view on someone, so I am generally not for it for the most part.

[ThisIsNoName]

I agree with LateWhiteRabbit in that I think propaganda games are fine as long as they ask questions instead of giving answers. The exception to this, at least for me, is where the idea that is being present is less about information and more about prompting action (see Some Anvils need to be dropped for more of what I'm talking about). Even then, those only work because the questions have already been asked, but ignored.

I think the main deciding factors of whether I will read a propaganda VN is whether the author shows respect for the opposing viewpoint, and whether it's well thought out and well written. I'm willing to play a propaganda game that totally goes against my own views if I think it's worth my time, or will give me a different way to think about something. On the flip side, if a game has no context or "meat" to it, chances are I will skip it entirely, even if I agree with their views.

[Sapphi]

Almost everyone has a strong message they wish to disseminate to everyone else, even if they don't consciously realize it. Look at the work of any prolific story-teller in any medium and you will see clear patterns and themes emerge - a question or problem they keep addressing over and over again in different forms. In layman's terms, most authors are pushing the same moral in every fairy tale they create. Most of the time these are subtle themes that are not blatant or shoved in the face of the reader or consumer.

This. Due to this I think it is impossible to ban "propaganda". Where would we draw the line? I think we could all agree that this is obvious (and rather tasteless) propaganda, but if I were to write a visual novel about Sally, who loved to eat steak until she met her new BFF Heidi the Holstein, became a vegetarian, and lived happily ever after, that is a little less blatant than PETA's attention-seeking tactics, but still propaganda in a way because the ultimate aim of the story is not just to entertain, but to convince you to think twice about eating cows (phew, long sentence. someone take my comma key). And yet I don't think something like that should be disallowed. If it's written poorly, that's one thing, but just the fact that an author is writing to persuade is not a condemnable offense.

what if the purpose of said message isn't mainly to entertain but to cause a change in thought and behavior?

For my part, I usually prefer books (and other media) that make me think. Entertainment is good, but at the end of the day if I have only been entertained I feel very empty. I want to be challenged or educated somehow so I don't feel like I just wasted a bunch of precious time. That being said, there is a difference between brainwashing and actually making an argument (which can still include, I think, an appeal to pathos and not necessarily be brainwashing).

Anyway, I would like to think that our duty as a story-based game-making community is not to disallow persuasive visual novels, but to hold them to some kind of ethical standard. And to ask their creators to please save their persuasive tactics FOR the visual novel, and not champion their cause all over the board.

[PyTom]

Also, current Lemmasoft rules probably don't allow such games to be posted here, but we've never seen a thread locked for that yet.

I've gone ahead and tweaked the forum rules to allow the issues raised by a good-faith game to be discussed in threads about that game, as long as the threads remain civil. Good-faith is an admin discretion thing - political rant-games aren't allowed.

[WatchJessieGo]

I think Moonshine is a good example of a VN that has a message but doesn't force it down your throat, which is something I like. It's about a man (with previous heterosexual relationships) that falls in love with a transsexual/hermaphrodite (it's never clearly stated which category this person falls under) named Mai. It sends the message that you love someone for their soul, not their gender. Even when Mai asks if this man minds that she is not a "real girl," he tells Mai that he loves her/him simply because she/he is Mai.
It was a very sweet story, and I think it definitely sent a great message without shoving it in your face. As long as a story's message is not obnoxiously presented in an attempt to change your mind whether you like it or not, then I'm fine with it.

[mugenjohncel]

Guess my game pretty much fit perfectly with this...

MARIJUANA - The Truth
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 67#p189967

Meaning creators should be upfront that they have an agenda when presenting a game that pushes one.

This... by doing it this way you practically filter which user will access your work saving everyone trouble and the flamewars later on...

In my case... I'm into Marijuana legalization and appropriately named my work accompanied by a proper introduction as to what to expect when you open to view my work without resorting to additional bells and whistles like forcing the player to view everything by locking the screen in full resolution. No misleading whatsoever... and expect people to voice their opinion about it... it may be favorable or not... you cannot do anything about it since people have their own thoughts and beliefs... just think of your complete games thread as a sort of guest board where guest will write what they think about your work... and use them as a sort of recommendations to improve future works...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[Crocosquirrel]

Pretty much, the way I'm reading it. But then it's also 1am here, so I may not be quite awake enough.

[AnthonyHJ]

I tend to consider propaganda games to be self-limiting; if I disagree, I'll stop playing. If I've paid for it, I'll get angry, but I'll generally roll my eyes and uninstall it.

There's a certain idea that all games promote certain ideals and I think that needs clarification; all games encourage some element of the local status-quo just because it's the status-quo and we don't choose to challenge it. Often, it doesn't occur to us. For example: I'm not sure I'd call a game 'propaganda' if it only 'promoted' heterosexuality by not including any openly gay characters, but I'd be quite upset if it included negative portrayals of homosexuality or Bible-verses criticising it because that (to me) would be propaganda.

I am sure I always subconsciously include a certain liberal world-view in my games and my writing because I am liberal in my own world-view. I like diversity and I am all for people doing what they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. You want to carve arcane runes in your flesh? Have fun, but try to avoid any major blood-vessels. I've been accused of promoting a few things, but I tend to think I just create worlds with a different status-quo and see how things change...