OELVN: State of the Community

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mikey
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#138 Post by mikey »

Well, from what I'm able to tell, it's traditional to have sex separated from other experiences in the West. So it's not common to show sex explicitly within a story. It's fine to have porn movies and pictures which are just about sex, and it's fine to have elaborate stories - but not both in one.

For me, the explanation is that on a general level it's no problem to talk about sex, I'd say the Western society is very open about it - but on a personal level, sex as an experience is reserved for the individual alone. And normally I don't want a story to cross my intimacy barrier by showing me explicit sex scenes, because it's simply discomforting.

Another thing about this is that, concerning the "solution" of having two versions, as a Westerner, I will instantly ask WHY there are two versions - one all ages and one 18+. To me this sends a clear signal that sex isn't necessary in the story and because sex is such a powerful and intimate element, I will (rightfully) assume, it was never an integral part of the vision to have sex in the story. While this is fine for the Japanese, who are able to enjoy multiple elements separately within one presentation (the crazy switches from comedy to deadly seriousness in many anime), the Western culture typically appreciates fluidity and consistent style - and so, sex that can be taken out, acting as an add-on, will for the Western audience feel useless, irritating, inconsistent, shallow and pull down the whole vision/project.

So my counter-question would be whether the OELVN scene needs to consider the ero-nonero equation at all - for which I have an answer - it doesn't. If a developer feels that sex is necessary, he will put it there, but even so, in 99.99% of the cases, you can still have a soft representation of sex (erotica, or implied sex), for a story you don't really need explicit porn.

Therefore if you cross that barrier of explicit sex (in a game that is story oriented), you better have an excellent reason. The Western fans are sensitive when you want to present them something directly arousing - as for most of the time they want to enjoy sex separated from any other experiences.
DaFool wrote:... OELVNs are decidedly non-ero... maybe that's good?
The others have already commented of course, but just to join them, I think it's good, because it's more natural not to have ero versions of stories in OELVNs. We often talk about how it's not so good to just copy everything from the Japanese original - well, this ero approach is something NOT to copy.

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#139 Post by Counter Arts »

Hmm... well I guess one reason to put sex in is to make things more realistic.

And the other reason is to maybe educate people on it. Like, it gets kinda weird once you start to notice some people trying to explain certain things while they walk on eggshells.

Like, if Shoujo manga is becoming the thing that educates girls about the real world (oh man... sad state of the western world) I might as well do the same here.

BTW, just so we are clear:

porn = degrading sex, erotica = consenusal "nice" sex.

Implied and explicit sex is a DIFFERENT dimension. Casual romance club would be considered erotica with explicit sex.

My recommendation for the western world; erotica with either side of implicit and explicit.

And oh yes, you can have erotica in a dark story. Is there any reason why it could not happen? I just happen to think it would be very effective actually.

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#140 Post by DaFool »

I guess R-rated would be it, then...it can illustrate just about anything needed in an erotic story. Nothing is lost by not portraying genitals. This has been the method in the West, and it requires a good deal of context to execute. (And indeed a lot of stuff in anime and Japanese media do seem 'out of context') Scenarios found in sex games such as rapeplay will be hard to justify. I'm pretty certain PyTom doesn't want Ren'Py to be associated with sex games either. That is why we cling to the term 'ren'ai'.

Doing things with the western consistent style is a good suggestion. Thus I will need to separate the story universes into those that can do without sex and those that cannot and make sure the characters stay within their stories.

I've also been tossing around the idea of making a serious game (i.e. a game with other purposes besides entertainment) that will help porn addicts wean themselves off their addiction. Since porn addiction is caused by ever-increasing amounts of stronger stimulus...with each successive one more depraved than the previous, I've been speculating that operant conditioning can be used to wean them towards a more softcore environment.

Since R-rated is essentially soft-core, then just like how Counter Arts mentioned it can be used in a dark story, I've been thinking of using soft-core in a light story...one that makes you love everyone and love the world and God think that life is good etc...

Basically the Judeo-Christian tradition teaches us that porn is bad but sex can be holy and beautiful...the problem is that most people's exposure to porn at an early age is the depraving kind. Even the exposure in Hollywood in recent years is the sex = competitive sport variety. A very very few media show the 'holy and beautiful aspect' (I think a few of our VNs did this already).

But yeah, I think that whenever OELVNs approach sex, the 'holy and beautiful' can be a good precedent, instead of the nasty.

Erotica that even priests and angels would approve...yeah!

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#141 Post by Adorya »

Though successfull eroge company are going 1st to the ero route, they usually follow with general public console conversion, anime and manga. Even if conversion fail, you still get attention from a potential buyer of the original game, even if adult oriented.

That does also mean that Vn companies that are doing non ero will get less successfull if their product are not killer app. And the general public is a pretty harsh judge in this case.

In both case anyway it's still difficult, you have to work on everything (graphics, storyline, game engine...) and worse is to get flagged after your 1st releases ("this company is doing only niche" "this one has good graphic but sucky story", etc...)

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#142 Post by magi »

I personally think that the "western perspective" in this is a little disingenuous. They don't have to justify anything to anybody, why should we? Since there is no commercial incentive or disincentive to do anything, we should be allow to make any kind of game that we want. That's not to say we go out and make hard core tentacle sex monster torture just because we can. However, personally think if we are going to restrict ourself just because is being artistically dishonest.

I don't need to justify my fantasy to anybody. We are not out to educate people (or maybe you are), but I personally think the whole "holy and beautiful" ideal in itself is also a fantasy. People have sex because it makes them feels good, and in some case it growths from a relationship that is emotional fulfilling, however, relationship is not simple, its often messy, and sometimes it involves many individuals in complex situations This is often what makes a story interesting, and if it involves a lot of sex, then so be it.

I also think the differentiation between "Pornography" and "Erotica" is only difference of semantic, personally I think it wouldn't make any difference to thought police who are against those things anyway, so might as well just call it for what it is.

With that said, that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy with people's discomfort with such issues.

As an art student, currently I attend a weekly life drawing classes, with fully nude models that also reveals genitals. At the moment though, those have never been really being a point of discomfort, at this point, most of the student with me in that class already fully objectifying a nude figure. to us, its just a nude figure. However, that doesn't mean it takes away the sensualities of the human body, and how we can appreciate it as being beautiful both as an object, but also as a human being. Although it would take A LOT of context for me to actually see multiple nude figure in a sexual context, however, for people who haven't gone through this training, simple nudity could be considered pornographic. Its difficult for us to adjust to this differences of perception.
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#143 Post by PyTom »

Q: What's the best way to make a small fortune in OELVNs?
A: Start with a big fortune!
Honestly, I think the question of ero-content comes down to what the developer is comfortable with, what is his target audience, and (perhaps most importantly) what best serves the story.

I don't think there's one right answer to these questions, and I don't think this is in any way a community decision.

(Along with Lemma, I am mulling the creation of a separate sub-forum for Ero-game discussions. I think we might need it, since we have a number of underage tykes on the forum.)
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#144 Post by magi »

Are you saying that it is essentially a money losing business? (lol)
Honestly, I think the question of ero-content comes down to what the developer is comfortable with, what is his target audience, and (perhaps most importantly) what best serves the story.
That is true, it really entirely depended on what the developer wants to convey.
Although, I think we really don't need to be so high minded about something like this. If you have fun making it, and if people find it entertaining, then why not? Are we actually trying to develop certain credibility in order to justify what we work on as high art?
(Along with Lemma, I am mulling the creation of a separate sub-forum for Ero-game discussions. I think we might need it, since we have a number of underage tykes on the forum.)
"OH, would anybody just think of the children."

That sounds like a good idea, I personally think it would be easier if we don't need to worry about stepping around certain issues in discussions.

Why do I start posting like crazy when I am sleep deprived. >
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#145 Post by mikey »

Counter Arts wrote:BTW, just so we are clear:

porn = degrading sex, erotica = consenusal "nice" sex.

Implied and explicit sex is a DIFFERENT dimension. Casual romance club would be considered erotica with explicit sex.
Hmmm, for me the terminoloy is, generally:
porn - explicit sex, showing genitals
erotica - non-explicit sex (a naked body for instance, most cases of implied sex)

My version :P

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#146 Post by lordcloudx »

How I see it.

Pron = considered as offensive, explicit portrayals of sex.

Erotica = most likely the same thing, but generally accepted as art. The dividing line between porn and erotica varies throughout history.
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#147 Post by mugenjohncel »

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#148 Post by papillon »

Sex sells - IF you can find a place to sell it. Which is tough for most people because of the difficulty in finding anyone willing to host it or market it, unless you've got a lot of starting money.

Obviously dlsite opening up to English game-makers helps, and Manifesto Games is publically stating that they'd like to be able to offer some games with adult content THAT DON'T SUCK.

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#149 Post by mikey »

I would say especially in the sex/non-sex discussion, we should definitely distinguish between the OELVNs that are intended to be sold and the OELVNs that are intended as freeware.

For freeware, you have no restrictions, it's your call. But unless you want your game to be pornographic from the start, I'd say most of the people will leave out the explicit details of their character's intimacies (going to the toilet), simply (as F.I.A's post said) out of respect for them.

For works that are intended to be commercial, sex sells and all that, all-ages/worksafe discussion, but frankly this isn't something I feel competent in. It's probably too complex anyway ^_^

So more or less my thoughts are for the freeware branch of OELVNs - which is the one I love and I support. :P

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#150 Post by DaFool »

mikey wrote: For works that are intended to be commercial, sex sells
I'm starting to scratch my head. Take hentai for example.

I've seen a person or two on forums comment, "Who pays for hentai? If I want my H I'll just download a 2-minute clip."

And if you look at the pirate torrent sites, you can easily find hentai, even licensed ones. Whereas you'd have to look harder to find some regular anime, especially those a couple of years old and not too mainstream.

That proves that you can easily obtain hentai for free.

But then, how on earth can a general hentai DVD be more expensive than a regular anime DVD with fewer episode count, and still sell?! Even the pirated versions follow this principle of hentai = can charge more per disk.

So obviously that proves that sex sells.

So I scratch my head yet again.

I would want to agree with magi... no one knows about our little fandom so might as well do anything that we please...

but there are technical limitations like papillon mentioned.

If I create something commercial and H I will have to sell on dlsite...

Why am I considering commercial? So that this hobby will be more self-sustaining for me, kinda like how open-source projects are supported by donations and direct download sites are supported by advertisements.

So if the ero vs non-ero argument significantly influences the commercial vs free argument... it becomes really messy and I really need to evaluate it on a per-project basis.

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#151 Post by magi »

I make comic for like minded people, as in, I make comics that I would want to read. Its easy to say, but difficult in practice.

I personally think, unless you are aiming for going commercial from the very beginning, I don't think we should get into those consideration so early. Just make the type of game that you want to play, and who knows, you might be a trend setter, and once you did that, the audience will usually follow. I personally think it is a detriment to creativity if we get bog down so much in semantics.

And like I said, just because I think we should NOT restrict ourselves doesn't mean you'll have to go out and test the limit. Just make the game you like, and that's more of a artistically honest approach. Well, its not too pandering if you making games base on what you are interested in something that others are also interested in. >.>
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#152 Post by Hime »

I'd like to share my opinion about the ero/non-ero thing... I'm really not into hentai or anything (actually I'm pretty young and I don't even watch it), but I think it depends a lot on the story. For example, let's take KEY's game Air. I have never played Air, but I've seen both of the animes so I know the story. And honestly, ero doesn't fit a story like Air. Many fans of the game have said that the ero scenes were out-of-place and awkward, and I think that if I played Air, I would think the same. So, that's when you shouldn't go ero - when it doesn't fit the story at all. But some VNs might have a plot that involves sex in a way or another (some paths of Tsukihime, for example), and the game might need the ero scenes to complete the story. I think that you shouldn't try to cut those scenes out in a case like that, though those definitely shouldn't look more important than the other scenes. So I think it's okay to go ero when it serves a real purpose instead of fanservice or "hey, let's make this game sell better".

My opinion might be weird, though, because I really haven't played through any ero game. But this is what I think in all of my uncertainty. :)

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