Lemma Soft Forums

My apologies if this has been covered before, but looking around the forum I haven't found any dedicated thread pertaining to the question.
A few people have mentioned the notion, I saw some examples, but no real comparison or discussion.

Put simply, I'm wondering about how everyone feels about using photos that have been filtered to look more "cartoonish" or like water-color paintings vs actual CGs.
In my opinion, each has its upside.

Filtered photos:
-are much faster to create
-sources are in abundance on the net, many under CC licenses
-typically free to obtain/create
-no artistic talent required
-high resolution is the norm

CGs:
-more consistent (assuming they're from the same artist)
-more "natural" when shown beside sprites, and in VNs in general
-complete control over the end product
-you aren't stuck in a real-world setting
-honestly, they just look better/cleaner in general to me

The question isn't specific to any particular VN, though in my case I'm currently working on a VN with easily over 100 backgrounds, so the price and speed of using filtered photos makes the option very attractive. However, some scenes would really be better as CGs, especially if a character is going to be drawn into a particular scene rather than being shown as a sprite.

So, in your opinion, do such photos cut it in a VN?
Are you a CG purist who believes that CGs are the only way to go?
Can both be used in the same project? eg. photos for general backgrounds, CGs for scenes with characters drawn on.
Maybe photos for concept work, CGs when the project is close to completion?

A few examples of the types of photographs I'm talking about:
http://imgur.com/WMxtbZL
http://imgur.com/1BLND3Y
http://imgur.com/aNNyBXU
Depending on the method used, the photos can turn out quite different. These are just examples of the method I'm currently using.
The question is about filtered photos in general, not one particular style.

I'd probably not decide to not play a game based solely on the type of background, but in terms of preference, I usually like CGs, even if it's just a photo that's been painted over. I feel like a lot of filtered pictures look... cheap, I guess? I don't know exactly how to describe it, but basically I can usually tell the exact photoshop filters or whatever that were used, kind of like when you can see art has been obviously burn-tool shaded, haha. Another issue I could see with the photos is that it's much harder to control the lighting and colors used, which can potentially be distracting from the foreground activities if it's not edited to accommodate for the scene.

BUT it really depends a lot on the style of the modification, I like ones that look more paint-y or or like they're a CG but they're based on photos. As long as it's not horrific, it probably wouldn't be a major factor in whether or not I pay for/play a game, though.

I think it would be jarring to use both in the same game unless they were really similar, or if there was a distinct separation (i.e CGs for inside, photo manip for outside) AND they weren't jarringly different. Wouldn't really care if photos changed to CGs from the demo to the final product, would probably feel a little weird the other way around.

I would not refuse to play a game that uses filtered photos. They are a perfectly legitimate way to make backgrounds on the cheap and if your game is good, it won't matter.

However, I would probably think twice before buying a game that uses filtered photo backgrounds, unless they were used for artistic reasons rather than just to save money on backgrounds.

Still, the plot is of main importance to me, not how amazing the BGs and CGs look. If a game is really good, and uses filtered photo BGs, I'd still pay for it.

I'd say it depends on the photo/filtering, good photos with bright colors look good with anime sprites and are difficult to distinguish from 3d backgrounds. Crappy photos remain crappy whatever filters people try to apply, sometimes they look even worse with filters.
But yes, there were discussions like this before and of course people prefer CG-type, not photos, but as SundownKid said story is most important.

Zetsubou wrote:...Put simply, I'm wondering about how everyone feels about using photos that have been filtered to look more "cartoonish" or like water-color paintings vs actual CGs. ... The question is about filtered photos in general, not one particular style.

I use filtered photos extensively, if not exclusively for my backgrounds.

So far, I haven't heard any complaints, but then I don't sell my games. Also, they are indeed fast to process. Once you have it programmed into an Action it only takes seconds, but that's after spending months experimenting with filter combinations to get the right 'look.' You also need to take into account that before they're processed each image could need adjustment for perspective, light, and shadow, and possibly photo-manipulation to add things or remove them from the image.

-- Example:
Before: (This is the original size!) After: I tend to use filtered photos for the characters too, but that comes with a pile of it's own problems. For example, the same character in more than one 'useful' position are very difficult to find if you don't take your own photos. Also, this character's image was originally in black and white so it had to be cut out and colored before it could be processed. The hardest part I've found in using filtered photos isn't the filtering process, it's finding the Right photos to filter.

As much as I like CG more, I'm perfectly fine with just filtered backgrounds. I mean, I've gotten used to it due to Tsukihime and 07th Expansion's works, so it doesn't really bother me. The only times I would care is when it has bad lighting, which makes NVL format text difficult to read.

Filtered photos are alright if they are consistent, well edited, and don't contrast too much with character art.

Traditional backgrounds really depend on the artist, but can also have issues with contrast in regards to character art.

Those photos you included on their own seem perfectly fine, but I have no idea what the characters look like. If you want such a massive number of backgrounds, you may have no choice.

TrickWithAKnife wrote:Filtered photos are alright if they are consistent, well edited, and don't contrast too much with character art. Traditional backgrounds really depend on the artist, but can also have issues with contrast in regards to character art.

I'm in agreement here.
-- The art style for the backgrounds and the character art should at least resemble each other.

You know, I've wanted to talk about this topic for quite a while!

Most of the time, artists just don't have confidence in backgrounds, which is why lots of sprite artists won't do the BG work, since we can't, I don't know, start it off. Or colour it.

So, uh, you could remedy that problem by having the artist just... paint over the royalty-free photos? This helps because, well, it looks more drawn, less photofiltered, removes the grain, and also because the artist will subconsciously make it match their style, which helps with consistency?

So you pretty much get quicker backgrounds but it'd be a bit more effort since, well, it does take a little time to make it look right.

I just wanted to put that out there as an alternative because I'm a bit adverse to hastily filtered photos. (Good photo filtering is an art; if you slap a single photoshop filter over a photo, then - uh - yeah. It'll make me uncomfortable.)

So to show everyone, I've made a very quick example. I would do it, uh, a lot better than this, but I have to go do a history assignment now, so if you don't mind: Photo is from here.

(Basic process was colourpicking and making swatches of colour, rearranging it to be more attractive slightly, then adding some outlines. After that, adding a photo filter in photoshop - a colour filter, not an image-altering one, would give it a bit of an artist's touch.)

Back to the topic though; I can accept photos in a VN. They're alright, unless it's commercial. Then I'd scrutinize it a tad more. As an artist myself, CGs are the best possible state, I guess? Well-done ones, at least. I prefer consistency - all photos or all CGs - unless they've been edited to look the same. Photos for concept work is perfectly fine.

I certainly like the idea of artists drawing over existing royalty free photos, or even over 3d renders.

I wonder how the artists themselves feel about it though.

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I certainly like the idea of artists drawing over existing royalty free photos, or even over 3d renders.

I wonder how the artists themselves feel about it though.

Ah, well, I was speaking as an artist myself, even if I'm not representative of all artists.

Definitely ask the artist if they're alright with the idea, though. Lots of them would think it's cheating, even though I simply see it as an alternative to filters.

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I certainly like the idea of artists drawing over existing royalty free photos, or even over 3d renders.

I wonder how the artists themselves feel about it though.

This is one of my preferences for making backgrounds. It's not much different from how many manga artists do their backgrounds, although they go out and take the photos themselves.

Laniessa wrote:...So, uh, you could remedy that problem by having the artist just... paint over the royalty-free photos? This helps because, well, it looks more drawn, less photo-filtered, removes the grain, and also because the artist will subconsciously make it match their style, which helps with consistency?
...I just wanted to put that out there as an alternative because I'm a bit adverse to hastily filtered photos. (Good photo filtering is an art; if you slap a single photoshop filter over a photo, then - uh - yeah. It'll make me uncomfortable.)

I think this is an excellent way to do backgrounds.

Laniessa wrote:...I prefer consistency - all photos or all CGs - unless they've been edited to look the same. Photos for concept work is perfectly fine.

I also prefer constancy. Even if the images; BGs, CGs, or characters, are a mix of art and photos the style should at least look similar. As for concept work, I say, 'anything goes' to get your point across.

I'm reading that people are less likely to want to pay for a game that uses photos for BGs though they wouldn't mind so much for a free game.

For me, photos and hand drawn BGs, it doesn't make a difference. The question for me is: is it well done? Does it have artistic unity? Hand drawn BGs can be poorly done with no effort. Photographs can be excellently done with lots of effort.

One of my favorite art games, Trauma, uses photos for BGs in the coolest way--the music, VO, and writing are great, the puzzles and mechanics are cool. But the photos really stood out to me as something really amazing.

http://www.traumagame.com

I mean I have seen lots of games where the backgrounds are hand drawn but in a realistic style like Uncle Mugen does, and then the sprites are completely unrealistic anime style...or those same toyukada sprites. That bugs me more that photo BGs.

In general I'd say filtered photos look cheap and shoddy and shouldn't be used for any commercial endeavor. This goes out the window totally if you can make your filtered stuff look as awesome as Ookami Kasumi's but the key to this way of doing it is artistry, using tools like color theory and composition and perspective, positive/negative space, lighting, ect. to make things look right. I'm a fan of paint overs, those tend to look very good. Of course, you'd still need the right photos to start with so you'd need some artistry in taking them and putting them to use. I also enjoy 3D renders with some nice filtering, though sometimes that runs into the same problems as normal filtered photos. I agree with what's been said, whatever you end up with it should look like it belongs with the sprites, if it clashes at all it'll look cheap and slapped together no matter how much time and money you spent on them.