Ori, Ochi, Onoe.

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#121 Post by Guest »

Malfeasant Platypus here.

Finally got all the endings (with some help from this forum :P), and I have some further questions/comments.
Is there any reason Ochi developed the Ori personality in the first place?

Why does the eye operation lock her into Ochi mode? And Ochi's lamentation that Ori didn't come to see her...she can't possibly have ever laid eyes on Ori since they're the same person...so....what?

How does Ori resurface in ending #5?

Why do Ori and Ochi merge in ending #4? (It strikes me as kinda strange that that's the "best ending" since it always seems to hinge on Yoshiyuki recognizing that he loves Ochi's body...that's the best thing for their relationship?)

More importantly, how does Ori differ from Ochi?

I feel that’s something of a problem, actually…We don’t get to see Ori do all that much, and she isn’t much of a character...I know mikey said he was focusing on one character, but given that Yoshiyuki was in love with her, and, as it turns out, she's the same person as Ochi, there's an odd lack of infomation on her.

The same is true of Onoe, really. She’s irrelevant to the main plot of the game, even though she was Ori’s friend. Doesn't she have anything to say to Yoshiyuki about her?

Wait, didn’t the game say in Part 0 Onoe and Ori were friends since kindergarten? Didn’t ending #4 say that the Ori personality didn’t emerge until later? She was born Ochi, right?
[/i]

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#122 Post by mikey »

Okay, this is a long one, so hopefully I can bring some of the points accross. Also, it's good to know that the game doesn't necessarily have an explanation for everything, similarly to RT, where there is no explanation on why certain things happen - it's often not important to me how it comes about, but what the consequences are. Okay, deep breath and...
>>> Is there any reason Ochi developed the Ori personality in the first place?

No. It's not explained.

>>> Why does the eye operation lock her into Ochi mode?

Not explained. Anesthetics can easily affect your brain... a combination of factors... anything.

>>> And Ochi's lamentation that Ori didn't come to see her...she can't possibly have ever laid eyes on Ori since they're the same person...so....what?

Well, they were switching day by day, and they knew about each other, but they couldn't put the pieces together - it was an explanation that seemed logical to both of her personalities. At the times when the game had a section that explained the illness in more detail, there was also mentioning of Ori and Ochi going into therapy, so it could also imply that referring to one another as sister was the best ordered therapy at that time.

>>> How does Ori resurface in ending #5?

The ending is also partly residual. There is a slight hint at this, almost untraceable... in a not included scene Yoshiyuki is at the hospital and they consider the effects of the shock if someone would speak determinedly to Ochi, implying she is Ori - and Ochi would be in a highly unstable state (i.e. her aggressive fits), and if she wouldn't see the one who was speaking and so on. It turned out to be a complicated explanation and so I decided to drop it. But Yoshiyuki makes the same telephone experiment... he even AFAIK mentioned that it should "work".

>>> Why do Ori and Ochi merge in ending #4?

Becaue Yuki is born, but no explanation beyond that. Hormone levels, but I didn't want to crete wild theories. The non-biological explanation is that a baby is the symbol of ultimate love - both mental and physical - that's why it brings the split parts of love together. (see below for a bit more detail on the split.)

>>> It strikes me as kinda strange that that's the "best ending" since it always seems to hinge on Yoshiyuki recognizing that he loves Ochi's body...that's the best thing for their relationship?

Yes... actually the good endings are Yoshiyuki going with the body - he would probably have known Ochi's baby wish... in fact that's why it's so important to have deciphered Words Of Melody. It tells you the wish, and all that there should be to do is submit to that wish and make love... when the time is right. (yes, when the time is right... *hint*)

>>> More importantly, how does Ori differ from Ochi? I feel that’s something of a problem, actually... We don’t get to see Ori do all that much, and she isn’t much of a character...

That's because she has no real role. She is merely a personality that carries only love - therefore when he is with Ori, Yoshiyuki feels love - while with Ochi he can feel everything else (especially physical attraction). It's in fact just a device to put Yoshiyuki into a situation and see what one can live with - especially the question would be can you live with someone on the grounds of physical attraction?

>>> I know mikey said he was focusing on one character, but given that Yoshiyuki was in love with her, and, as it turns out, she's the same person as Ochi, there's an odd lack of infomation on her.

The focus was to show what a person would be if the ability to being loved or feeling love from someone would be taken away from her - Ochi was a comparably normal personality (though still a bit on the possessive side, but still, nothing out of the ordinary). With the split, Ori was "born" and she took everything love-related from her life. Ochi was left with everything BUT love in her life - that meant she was increasingly evil and irritated, frustrated and so...

Of course, when Yoshiyuki came into the picture, he fell in love with Ori, as that was the part of the personality that could give, but also receive love. Even though nothing else happened, barely any physical contact or anything else... Yoshiyuki was in love. But before he could realize that beyond love there's really nothing more to Ori (which would result in a similarly frustrating problem) ... the operation came and there was only Ochi left. And being confronted with Ochi to whom he could feel attraction (sexual), he decided to stay with her, as it was the same physical person as Ori. It could have been clear to him that the lack of love in their relationship would inevitably lead to problems, but it was the (newly found) physical attraction (as a sort of second side to love), that gave him hope and the will to be with her. At that time though, he didn't realize that he felt love for Ori and attraction for Ochi - both felt in their way somehow right - but neither of them alone could be enough to make him truly happy - and he found that out by living with Ochi, the one he was attracted to. He says in 4/9 that he probably would have the same unfulfilled life with Ori as well when he finally realizes it.

>>> The same is true of Onoe, really. She’s irrelevant to the main plot of the game, even though she was Ori’s friend. Doesn't she have anything to say to Yoshiyuki about her?

Not really. She isn't really involved, as she was friends with the non-conflict love-only Ori personality. And in many ways Ochi/Ori is competition for her. She likes Yoshiyuki and she does not hide it. And she is also a different personality altogether - as Yoshiyuki is more a submissive personality, Onoe is the only one who he can have an equal relationship with, her love makes him drop the submissive tendency he had. In this respect she is not relevant, as the story of Yoshiyki and Onoe's relationship, if it had to be detailed, would probably be a very different story.

>>> Wait, didn’t the game say in Part 0 Onoe and Ori were friends since kindergarten? Didn’t ending #4 say that the Ori personality didn’t emerge until later? She was born Ochi, right?

Yes, she was born Ochi Ryokawa, the normal, if a bit dominant-by-nature Ochi. Onoe knew her at that time and they were friends. Now... later on, Ori (she represents love) was separated from Ochi, and now there were Ori and Ochi (the aggressive). And Onoe stayed friends with Ori, and wanted to help her. She also had much more tolerance for the Ori-Yoshiyuki relationship, even though she wanted Yoshiuki as well, than she had for Ochi when Yoshiuki and Ochi became a couple after the eyes operation. She was still not resigning, but she didn't take any action or didn't want to make Ochi look bad, even though Ochi had that aggressive nature and was treating Yoshiyuki like that time in the office. Yoshiyuki, if he wanted, Onoe would love him at any time - in her ending it says she loves him unconditionally, a different sort of love - and Yoshiyuki also says he needs this kind of love, which is kind of true if he wants to have an equal relationship.
Well, hopefully it could clarify a few things. :?

Guest

#123 Post by Guest »

Ori can only love? That's fascinating. About the only thing I remember from a psychology course I took a few years ago is that the multiple "personalities" people manifest are fake...they only exhibit one characteristic, like they're from badly written fiction. They’re empty, really.

Were you trying to go for anything like that?

I’m pretty awful with figuring out fiction that hides things from the audience, but…I feel that one’s impossible to figure out. How can you discover that purely from what’s in the game? Yoshiyuki spills all in ending #4, but how could a player have managed to figure some of it out beforehand? Yoshiyuki mentioned once in Part 0 that even though he'd been on many dates with Ori, they'd only held hands...were we supposed to read "no sexual desire at all" from that? Given how well Yoshiyuki gets along with Ori in the flashbacks, you'd think most people would think he'd be better off leaving Ochi for her until they learn the truth of the situation...how are we supposed to suss that he'd also be ultimately unhappy with her?


If Onoe’s not relevant I have to ask why she’s there at all....let alone mentioned in the title.


I still think it’s really weird that sex and babies are the ultimate answer to everything...it's not like Yoshiyuki knew he would get her pregnant at any specific time and they hadn't discussed starting a family or anything...he keeps crawling back into an awful relationship until it fixes itself by accident? I mean…he just seems like an idiot.

It’s so different from the usual “love is the answer” thing you see in romantic dramas that it has to be interesting merely by being such a violent departure…but I don’t know if it makes much sense to me.

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#124 Post by Watercolorheart »

^Somehow I found Guest's response more thought-provoking than the game. Weird.

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#125 Post by papillon »

While the *exact* nature of it might not come entirely clear, once you get into part 2 and see Ori rubbing her eyes and notice that those eyes look very much like Ochi's eyes... and have played River Trap... you can at least suspect something funny's going on. :)

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#126 Post by mikey »

Hmmm, I'd say... (it's spoilers galore in here)
>>> Ori can only love? That's fascinating. About the only thing I remember from a psychology course I took a few years ago is that the multiple "personalities" people manifest are fake...they only exhibit one characteristic, like they're from badly written fiction. They’re empty, really.
Were you trying to go for anything like that?

Honestly, I haven't thought about this, I've done the simple research, but any doctor could probably easily spot holes in the medical explanation - but that's okay, because it's just a means to get to a situation. Similar to a movie, often they work with the basic characteristic of a problem and then those who know in-depth will probably say that it's not very realistic. But in this case complete realism wasn't intended.

>>> I’m pretty awful with figuring out fiction that hides things from the audience, but…I feel that one’s impossible to figure out. How can you discover that purely from what’s in the game? Yoshiyuki spills all in ending #4, but how could a player have managed to figure some of it out beforehand? Yoshiyuki mentioned once in Part 0 that even though he'd been on many dates with Ori, they'd only held hands...were we supposed to read "no sexual desire at all" from that? Given how well Yoshiyuki gets along with Ori in the flashbacks, you'd think most people would think he'd be better off leaving Ochi for her until they learn the truth of the situation...how are we supposed to suss that he'd also be ultimately unhappy with her?

It's impossible. You can only understand certain things after you've gone through the game, and you'd probably still need hints or even direct revelations.

The "no sexual desire" isn't interpreted restrictively - if that were the case, Ori and Yoshiyuki would probably end up in some etheric relationship, while it would be sex with Ochi all the way. So there are some traces of love and some traces of physical closeness in both relationship types, but they never cross a certain line.


>>> If Onoe’s not relevant I have to ask why she’s there at all....let alone mentioned in the title.

Onoe is relevant, but for other reasons than Ochi/Ori. She is just not really relevant to the relationship between Yoshiyuki and Ochi/Ori.


>>> I still think it’s really weird that sex and babies are the ultimate answer to everything...it's not like Yoshiyuki knew she would get her pregnant at any specific time and they hadn't discussed starting a family or anything...he keeps crawling back into an awful relationship until it fixes itself by accident? I mean…he just seems like an idiot.

Yoshiyuki is by nature like this, he will give in eventually. But Ochi, being an "extreme" herself, needs him in order to live a halfway normal life. It's a deadlock, really.

>>> it's not like Yoshiyuki knew she would get her pregnant at any specific time

Not Yoshiyuki, but the player can know. (last easter egg)

>>> It’s so different from the usual “love is the answer” thing you see in romantic dramas that it has to be interesting merely by being such a violent departure…but I don’t know if it makes much sense to me.

Again, love isn't logical, plus there's a huge difference between love and a relationship. You say that the baby was a stereotypical ending, but they really can change certain people and I simply cannot accept that there is no place for Yoshiyuki. He won't change, neither will Ochi, so they can break up or make it work (not necessarily with a baby though) - even the 1, 2 and 3 endings where the level of Ochi's dominance in the relationship varies, they can be considered good endings - maybe for some they will be even better than ending 4. It never says "good ending". Their relationship will always be a compromise. If they have personalities like that and are unwilling to change, why should that not be the best for them? Saying that the only way for a relationship is to either be equal in everything or let it be... I just don't know, honestly. But that's kind of more a personal view, the game never intended to carry this thought - merely to show the ways in which this situation can be resolved.

And there is the bad ending, as well as Onoe as an alternative.
BCS>> I agree, actually. But I have to say I didn't want the game to be thought-provoking. A few hidden things, yes, but no what-ifs and the like.

papilon >> oh, you noticed and suspected something before 4/9? So it worked! :P

Guest

#127 Post by Guest »

At this point I feel kinda silly spoiler tagging the whole post, but I'll guess I'll do it anyway.
>>It's impossible. You can only understand certain things after you've gone through the game, and you'd probably still need hints or even direct revelations.<<

This moves into the realm of subjective opinion, but I find that kinda annoying…I know this is a “visual novel” rather than a “game” you try to “win”, but it’s still something you’re allowed to have direct input into via the choices you make, and for the player to end up stumbling around in the dark until they happen upon the twist ending and understand everything…

>>there's a huge difference between love and a relationship...<<

That could have been such an interesting theme to use for the game, especially combined with Ori’s “can only love” thing…

>>Their relationship will always be a compromise. If they have personalities like that and are unwilling to change, why should that not be the best for them? Saying that the only way for a relationship is to either be equal in everything or let it be... I just don't know, honestly. But that's kind of more a personal view, the game never intended to carry this thought<<

I feel like you should have put that into the game because it’s so interesting…society says men shouldn’t be submissive…but does that really mean that it’s “wrong” or that Yoshiyuki can’t find happiness?

But I’m still bothered by ending #4…there doesn’t seem to be any compromise, any change in their relationship until the baby comes, which is, again, not their conscious doing, nor the player’s(unless they’ve figured out your Morse code easter egg which I am rudely going to call insane)…I feel that the player has been given control of this guy’s decisions, and it…doesn’t matter much. I feel annoyed to have been asked to identify with this guy by taking control of his life only to end up blindsided by a twist ending.

Am I repeating myself?

>>even the 1, 2 and 3 endings where the level of Ochi's dominance in the relationship varies, they can be considered good endings - maybe for some they will be even better than ending 4. It never says "good ending".<<

But that’s the ending that tells you the overarching truth of the situation, as well as the longest, most involved ending(it even gives Onoe a send-off whereas she isn’t even mentioned in the other Ochi/Ori endings), following the VN tradition of the “true ending”.

>>And there is the bad ending, as well as Onoe as an alternative.<<

Well, the bad ending doesn’t explain anything at all, even how Ochi and Yoshiyuki fell apart(this is before you even see the strawberry madness, so those two had been nothing but lovey-dovey to that point)…it really seems like something which punishes the player for making poor choices, rather than a real conclusion to the story. And Onoe just feels totally extraneous…she has nothing to do with anything else…Yoshiyuki/Ochi is the main thrust of the game, and Onoe and her ending are totally apart from that. It’s weird.

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#128 Post by Alessio »

Anonymous wrote:I feel that the player has been given control of this guy’s decisions, and it…doesn’t matter much. I feel annoyed to have been asked to identify with this guy by taking control of his life only to end up blindsided by a twist ending.
You do have a valid point there, but I think this is a matter of taste and opinion. In my eyes O3 is a story more than a game, and therefore I accepted that the main character is acting in ways I myself would not. He is acting "in character".

How much control the player has over the main character will depend on the story. In O3, choices are made for the story's sake and not so much to steer towards a specific ending. I share your feeling of being swept away on the wings of destiny and not being able to make a difference - but I did have the feeling this was consistent with the story and so I accepted it.

Oops. Sorry for the long ramble.

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#129 Post by mikey »

You're right, the spoiler tagging is getting silly, let's drop it.

About the reply, I can understand just about everything - but the society problem and points that can raise discussions... that was exactly what I did NOT want the game to become. It's not an artistically expressed opinion. I actually dislike those.

And I also agree that the personality Yoshiyuki has isn't necessarily something that people can identify with - but IMO they don't need to, they might see it as having a peek into how a person like that may be thinking. I'm not saying like him, just understand him.

As for the last paragraph, the only thing that isn't quite true is that they haven't had any arguments before that. It should be clear that they have had, even from the first scenes when they make up after she calls him into her office.

Other than that I find your logic game-disintegratingly solid and understandable, so all I can say is that it's not really a game to play as yourself, but a VN to experience as Yoshiyuki. Kind of like Alessio mentioned it previously, having a different approach, maybe.
EDIT: Actually, like he repeated that point just now as I was writing. ^_^

With this game I also wanted to use the VN's strengths - make it less game-ish, maybe. I do agree however, that whenever I gave the protagonist a characteristic, players complained - this was the case with Azasuke from Gakuen Redux, for instance. I do like to make the protagonist generally neutral, but sometimes...

But it may well be that it's simply something that you doesn't mix with how you'd prefer a game to be... and I'm not going to defend the story when I know it's not logical.

Ayato Vuu

#130 Post by Ayato Vuu »

WOOT!
Another game with renesis/evo from mikey! ^.^

I just started, but It seems awesome! XD Pulling me in like GR ^.^

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#131 Post by mikey »

Ayato Vuu wrote:Another game with renesis/evo from mikey! ^.^
Welcome back, Ayato. This time, the soundtrack is in higher quality, so it should be fine to listen to if you enjoy it like the GR one. :P

Ayato Vuu

#132 Post by Ayato Vuu »

The music works for me, gah always gets a tear outta me XD
^.^ good to be back!
How'ed u kno i left? O.o Lol Vietnam and got a tan XD


Anyways...
I got ending 5 for my first playthough... Then 7 T_T
I love the first person point of veiw, gives u insight to what could happen ;)

btw - Oy!

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#133 Post by Taleweaver »

I'm usually not a friend of taking control away from the player in a game. However, visual novels are not games but stories with a little amount of interaction from the player's side. Even a Bad Ending is an ending to the story and should be considered a reward for playing.

My current project Foxtaile "suffers" from the same weakness: essentially, it's a story where many things can go wrong without you understanding why. In some of the endings, there are hints WHY things went wrong, and during the next session, you might be able to correct these mistakes and, hopefully, get a better ending.

The solution? Don't write visual novels, or rather, don't write programs that are EXCLUSIVELY visual novels. Heikou was a mix of RPG and VN, BL's new Hanafuda Club combines VN (or maybe dating sim; we'll see) with a fun and intriguing card game, and my next project after Foxtaile will also be a mix of visual novel and something... related but different. I think it's time we started making more games and less stories. Games including stories, of course, but with true "game qualities".

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#134 Post by mikey »

Or maybe it's just time to acknowledge that VNs are something unique and not necessarily games. And they will probably require a special approach as a result.

Stats and non-VN intermezzos give you that gamey feel, but in the end stat raising and planning (talking about dating sim crossed with a VN) produce a very different sort of attachment. Even choices that are clear, or that can be guessed. Gamers demand, rightfully, control and clarity. Writers aren't inclined to give that.

OTOH, movie viewers demand experience rather than control. And it's kind of why I still feel inclined to that theory of mine that VNs, even if multiend, aren't really a book X game hybrid, but more a book X movie mixture.

Well I don't want to drift offtopic any further, but I see the points made anyway. I'll still probably stick with multiend VNs though, because IMO for the O3 project it was the right decision, but I suppose you also need to be ready for criticism like that. I'm willing to take that criticism, explain the grounds on which my decisions were made, but I don't want to force that on anyone.


Anyway... back on topic, I was wondering (let's be more specific), whether anyone spotted a reference to one of the NaNoRenO 2005 games in O3... (no need to hide it in spoiler tags)

And to reveal more about the last big easter egg... it's a hidden calendar, but not the 31-day type.

:wink:

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#135 Post by DaFool »

I think it's time we started making more games and less stories. Games including stories, of course, but with true "game qualities".

Challenging? Yes. Possible? I'm sure of that.
But I like the stories! Its the stories that make many of the games here worth it! If it weren't for the stories, how would someone who had no prior knowledge that it was an indy game be able to enjoy the labor of love that was put into it and not dismiss it as another rpg clone?

It's the dominance of mikey games that really drives the storytelling aspect of this community. If it weren't for that, then this might as well be a community for generic independent games. I've come across a few of them, but totally forgot about them because they didn't hook me in and the games they made were all too similar to commercial versions.

Anime-style is story-telling style, that's what I believe.

And I definitely agree that visual novels are more like movies than games. How else would you appreciate a kinetic novel?

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