Lemma Soft Forums

I'd like to thank you (and others) that you made this torrent and like the game enough to promote it. In the end though, it's not important to achieve download numbers, but to find people who could be good audience for the game. I've posted the info on my club forum, although I am skeptical about it. But it is my club. And I've also submitted it to bonusweb, a game server. It's something I wanted to do. However, that's probably it from me, mostly because promoting is something I don't really like to do.

So I'll just sit down here and will be answering questions. There are actually quite a few. PyTom encouraged me to reveal all the easter eggs eventually, and I hope that people will be able to find a couple of them... Basically all are tied to the story and a lot of them really stand out as strange moments (IMO), so maybe you've come across them.

But oh well, it's past midnight and I'm rambling.

monele wrote:

I suppose something having to do with "redux" isn't really an easter egg hm? ^^;...

We're kind of entering spoiler conversations territory now... ^_^

Anonymous Malefactor again, with a criticism of more substance.

I finished my first play through earlier today. I got the bad ending, and it really frustrated me…everything seemed to be going fine and suddenly he just says “my life sucks” and the game is over…I didn’t understand why it happened at all.

I was really interested in the narrative, but I was so shocked by the seemingly arbitrary conclusion that I feel kinda disconnected from it now.

After some brief, futile experimentation, I read some of the spoilers here to advance more (which was probably unwise), and I can’t help but also see that “correct” sequence of choices as arbitrary as well.

Malefactor wrote:I finished my first play through earlier today. I got the bad ending, and it really frustrated me…everything seemed to be going fine and suddenly he just says “my life sucks” and the game is over…I didn’t understand why it happened at all.

By arbitrary you mean that there was no logic why you got the ending, right? As for the first endings, paradoxically named 8 and 9, this is more or less true, you have these choices of taking a path and deciding on what to eat and IMO unless you somehow cosmically understand, there's no way of finding the system based on the few minutes of playtime. For "Part 0", where you can get the bad ending - I suppose this was "my life sucks", that shouldn't be entirely without logic, I believe at least Onoe's ending to be easy. Maybe Ori was a bit more difficult, but it's also true that it's perhaps easier to see through the choices once you've reached the 4/9 ending.

Malefactor wrote:I was really interested in the narrative, but I was so shocked by the seemingly arbitrary conclusion that I feel kinda disconnected from it now. After some brief, futile experimentation, I read some of the spoilers here to advance more (which was probably unwise), and I can’t help but also see that “correct” sequence of choices as arbitrary as well.

Again, do you mean the sequence of choices leading to 4/9, or generally into Part II? Because the former can really feel very random (you could always try the system that some of the forum members have developed for ATP games - taking the least likely choice that you think will get you the result - well I smile over this now, but what else can I do).

However, I am not really a fan of entirely logical choices, which is why I have put in things the consequences of which aren't really apparent, so people would have to go with their guts from time to time. So there isn't really an obvious girl behind each of the choice items.

But I hope that in retrospect things can clear up, maybe as late as with the easter eggs, but it's also a part of it. I'll just hint that time plays a role, music plays a role and the contents of the conversations, especially those that (IMO) kind of feel a bit out of place.

For the of the endings one of such hints are for instance the opening hours of the library.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, because it got me slightly worried that no one complained about the nature of the choices and their transparency or nebulousness, it's probably been an issue since forever with my games - I'm hoping that restrospective explanations will give more meaning to them, which is not to say they can't feel random at times. It surely wasn't the intention to be frustrating, not in the most parts of the game.

mikey wrote:For "Part 0", where you can get the bad ending - I suppose this was "my life sucks"

Ah, no. I think it was ending 7...regardless, it was called "Redux Dreams".

Everything seems to be going great. I have Yoshiyuki decline to respond to Onoe's attraction and make a move for Ori, for whom his attraction is obvious, and he seems really pleased with this turn of events(and so does Ori, for that matter)...then it's back in the present, and he says, more or less, "everything was rotten after that" and it's all over.....why?

Is it something I did in the present? How I am supposed to tell how that relates to the flashback if Ochi, the central character of the present portion of the game, hadn't even shown up yet when that bad ending happened?

mikey wrote:By arbitrary you mean that there was no logic why you got the ending, right?

Yes, exactly. Yoshiyuki seemed happy, Ori seemed happy, Onoe seemed to be dealing with Yoshiyuki's "rejection" just fine, and Ochi hadn't even been introduced...there's no link I can see from that past situation to Yoshiyuki's present situation as Ochi's lover to the future situation of "everything is rotten" that is "Redux Dreams".

The Onoe ending I got has a similar feeling...how did Yoshiyuki go from hitting it off with Onoe, to being Ochi's lover, to being Onoe's lover and returning to his old town? The ending doesn't logically follow from the choices that caused it...I created an affinity for Onoe in Yoshiyuki, but...what happened then?

mikey wrote:Maybe Ori was a bit more difficult, but it's also true that it's perhaps easier to see through the choices once you've reached the 4/9 ending.

The problem I had with the Ori ending I've gotten (I'm afraid I can't remember the number...It doesn't enter into Part II..Yoshiyuki was waiting her in the park) is that it lacks context...Ori hasn't had enough screentime or done enough. I, the player, barely know anything about her. It feels premature, and even meaningless. I'm sure it'll make more sense after I see more of the game, but as I stand now, it's just weird.

mikey wrote:Again, do you mean the sequence of choices leading to 4/9, or generally into Part II?

Just into Part II in general.

I don't know...it feels as if I'm at the mercy of forces I can't possibily understand until I have sucessfully conquered them....and to conquer them, I need to understand them first. This is something you, as the creator, with your God's Eye view of the story's structure, may not be able to see.

First play: ending 7 of 9. Nothing explained. Dang.

Intrigued with the music and the special effects. Very professional look, both in art and in presentation. Top-notch game, that one!

Now looking at the spoilers to find out more

Final comment on ending 7: It's a little frustrating that essentially everything ends on a "game over" without knowing why. In the future, you live with a woman, and you reflect upon events in the past, and you are about to start a relationship with someone else, and then the game ends. Could have been done better, I suppose, or a little more satisfyingly at least.

More when I finish the other endings.

*edit*
Got a few more endings by now, including the "only Ochi" ending and, of course, easy Onoe. (And Ending 9 which, I believe, is a little joke on the makers' side.) Still missing the elusive ending 4, mostly because I am not willing to randomly try out different foods and ways of making love until I found the right combination for the lock.

What Malevolent Benefactor wrote about the arbitrariness of choices is, unfortunately, correct. OOO constantly reminds me of the "sweep the floor/mop the floor" choices in "Tokimeki Check-In" where simple everyday things make the difference between Best Ending and Bad Ending. Later in the game, most choices make perfect sense, but the fact that you can really understand the system later and still fail the ending you want to because of a minor choice made half an hour before just makes it too frustrating to make me play this again. I'd still like to comment on the entire plot, so if someone would be so kind to provide a walkthough, I'd be very happy.

*edit2*
Me the fool. Just found that being in part II is enough for the rest of the endings and the "food choices" are no longer relevant. I'm taking back what I said - it's not like Tokimeki Check-In, it's more like Snow Drop. Do one decision wrong and you don't get to the part where the game becomes really interesting ^_^

*edit3*
Now I finally got all the endings, except for 8, and to be frank, I have no idea how to get to that one. The hints so far seem to indicate that you needn't enter part II for it, however, all I can find "hidden" before that is ending 9. Any hints?

Aside from that, an intriguing story. And now again: any hints on ending 8? Please?

You're going to hate me. I know you will.

Because, after all the time you spent crafting that beautiful Ori-Ochi story--I love the one Onoe ending I've been able to get--six, I think.

By the way, what are endings eight and nine? How do I get them? It's driving me nuts. I'm pretty sure those are Ori/Ochi centric ones, right? Since only Ori and Ochi pics are missing from my gallery, see.

Thanks for those responses, I'll do my best to answer.

Malefactor wrote:I don't know...it feels as if I'm at the mercy of forces I can't possibily understand until I have sucessfully conquered them....and to conquer them, I need to understand them first. This is something you, as the creator, with your God's Eye view of the story's structure, may not be able to see.

It's, again, that thing. I know that one unlogical choice (I prefer to think more in terms of non-transparent than unlogical) can basically take control away from you. Still, even as a player I like to have a touch of the unknown, a choice made by chance that then turns out to be good - but you're right in saying this is at the expense of logic and if it doesn't work,it's probably worse than if logic took away the insecurity. This time, I was hoping to explain that with the 4/9 ending and to a great extent with the easter eggs, if people are willing to look deeper. It won't help with thebasic complaint though. Pointing out that my wife can go through the game kind of instinctively isn't going to be any consolation I suspect.

Perhaps I should hint at the fact that some things can be found out before 4/9 if you are able to understand Words Of Melody... for which Onoe's good ending is probably also a suggested extra hint.

Also, to completely crack the reasons why things happen (although this has only retrospective quality), it's probably necessary to literally work with a pen and paper, following days and events.

But I realize this is a huge task and it's hard if not impossible to reconstruct it if you don't have something very specific in mind. That's why we don't plan on hiding it forever. But there's always the option of a PM if you'd like to know sooner, although it's probably best if you've gotten 4/9 (for obvious reasons I can't mention the ending name, guess why), so that you have at least something from the game.

Taleweaver wrote: I'd still like to comment on the entire plot, so if someone would be so kind to provide a walkthough, I'd be very happy.

The walkthrough you can get right from the game if you manage to find the ultrasecret "Ending 10/9". But don't look at me, I didn't put that in. And again, the *entire* plot can't IMO be known without the hidden things. But as I said, it's merely an explanation, not anything new or anything. It doesn't make the plot any different and it probably won't make up for whatever was lost because of how the game was structured.

Taleweaver wrote:And now again: any hints on ending 8? Please?

OK, here it is:

Taleweaver wrote:

mikey seems to like stories about people with strange conditions, eh? The trapped spirit in River Trap, the writer with dyslexia in K*A*O*R*I, the manic-depressive protagonist of GR and now a split personality - medical conditions make up for great drama, don't they? ^_^

Again, thanks a lot for taking the time to comment this extensively.

SMWhat wrote:You're going to hate me. I know you will.
Because, after all the time you spent crafting that beautiful Ori-Ochi story--I love the one Onoe ending I've been able to get--six, I think.

No no, I really like Onoe, I do. It's kind of the contrast to the two sisters and she has a different effect on the protagonist, so... and I'm really happy that people can find a way to her as well. And thank BCS for her as well, she gave her a lot of personality the way she drew her - I rewrote a lot of things (almost everything) based on how Onoe looked, what she wore and so. Her original personality was a bit different, but I think that this is what she should always have been. So thanks once again BCS for this - just shows that often the writer isn't the only one shaping the story.

SMWhat wrote:By the way, what are endings eight and nine? How do I get them? It's driving me nuts. I'm pretty sure those are Ori/Ochi centric ones, right? Since only Ori and Ochi pics are missing from my gallery, see.

See the previous reply for Ending 8.
Ending 9 can be achieved, let's say with... (this is really very direct though, not mere hints)

mikey wrote:The walkthrough you can get right from the game if you manage to find the ultrasecret "Ending 10/9". But don't look at me, I didn't put that in.

I did. It's a reference to Monkey Island (except ctrl was taken, so I had to use a different modifier), and the first part of a 3-part easter egg. Of course, it pales in comparison to the easter eggs mikey put into the game... and his are story-related.

Heh, found ending 10 and the "walkthrough". Having played Monkey Island, that was enough hint for me; thanks again, PyTom. Thanks to Mikey for the hints on 8 too, even though that ending was more like a nice addition than something to truly watch out for.

I suppose there are many more easter eggs to be discovered, but I am still clueless on Words of Melody and the supposed "structure" of it all. Yes, even after seeing the walkthrough. Oh - is there an Omake to the game I missed? ^_^

Taleweaver wrote:

Still, there are a few things that just elude me, like Yoshiyuki's submissive behavior and the choices regarding his self-worth. I fail to see much difference between "There is Ori" and "I have feelings for Ori", and I STILL don't get the relevance of the library opening hours.

The first one is tied to Yoshiyuki's sense of commitment - not starting anything parallel even though he's not yet sure about his feelings (it's still at an early stage) - The second choice implies that he already feels love, and insofar it's more specific to Ori as it's already a specific feeling, while the former one is more general and means general interest for that person...

Taleweaver wrote:I suppose there are many more easter eggs to be discovered, but I am still clueless on Words of Melody and the supposed "structure" of it all. Yes, even after seeing the walkthrough.

It's because the walkthrough has nothing to do with this. For WoM, maybe go through the passages again where it's mentioned, but also the Return To Mizukagami ending is relevant, especially what Onoe says.

Anyway, yes, sorry if 8/9 was just an addition, it may be confusing that the endings are numbered this way, one would probably think the 1/9 is the "quickest". But there's no idea behind this, to take away the paranoia.

And I don't think there is an omake other than the dev pictures when you have a full unlock. If you weren't able to get that, it's probably because you're missing a kissing CG, in one of the paths in Part II...

mikey wrote:

Taleweaver wrote:And now again: any hints on ending 8? Please?

OK, here it is:

Well, it's Onoe's ending so... 1.) Generally, Onoe always helps the protagonist from his submissive tendency. 2.) You should go through the part of the city that most reminds you of her and 3.) eat what she likes (or rather, what you inspired her to start eating later on).

Ending 8 is still the ending I haven't gotten. For some strange reason I always end up with Ending 6. If Ending 8 is a shorter path than ending 6, I don't know where I'm going wrong. Because after 3.) above there are more choices so I end up with other endings. If I got the hints correctly, 3.) above would be the final choice, correct?

The ironic thing is that the first ending I got was 3/9, which was a mainline ending (it lasted through part II). Now if ending 8/9 is the quickest ending (not even going to part 0), then its so funny how I'm stuck trying to get to it.

On the other hand, I have not played Monkey's Island. Bummer.

Oh well, if you want a clear answer...