Love & Order (commercial, otome, dating sim)

[Celestie]

I haven't bought the game (...yet, I lack money, so badly) but I have the demo, and I was wondering if you can get one single image of all the possible candidates. Because when I played the first time aiming for one person I got one CG at their second date. But I don't get one for the others when I reach the second date (which is the date the candidate is initiating). Is this because it's planned, because you won't get their designated CG due to plot reason or simply because I fail?

[jack_norton]

I think you refer to Pierre? yes you see him in concert and if I remember correctly is the only one that gives you a CG so early.

[Celestie]

Ahh, okay, that cleared up my confusion. Thanks~

[Auto-Anthropology]

I don't think that any of these opinions have been stated by people who paid full price for the game.

I did. It was terrible. Although my expectations were low (and based on prior experience with free visual novels) the disappointment was really stark.

The directors of Winter Wolves seem to have no concept of the function of written dialogue at all:

Look at any of the office flirtation scenes and ask yourself:
• Is this as well written as a novel?
• Is this as well written as a TV sitcom?
• Is this as well written as a TV drama, such as "Law and Order"?
The answers are no, no, and no… the dialogue in this game would never even pass muster as dialogue in a third rate TV show. No matter how low you set your standards, this disappoints.

Repetitive scenes start nowhere and go nowhere (I take it these guys do not have anyone on staff who took a basic course in playwriting? Have you ever heard the question, "What's my motivation"?) … people drift in and out of a room (and go out on dates with each other) having nothing to say, and no motivation, no objectives, no conflicts, and no resolution.

Considering this as a murder-mystery, ask yourself:
• Have you ever read a published novel in the genre that was worse than this? (I haven't… the writing really is that bad.)
• Have you ever played a video game in that genre that was (in terms of interaction, story-line, or the process of solving the mystery) worse than this? (I haven't… this is staggeringly worse than early attempts in the genre by Infocom… does anyone remember Infocom's Suspect from 1984? That is exponentially better than Love and Order).

Although it is forgivable that doing photocopies for people in the office is meaningless repetition in this game… why is the process of solving the mystery a rote process of clicking your way through? There is nothing for the player to figure out, no analysis, no solution, and nothing you can get wrong… it just the same process as doing photocopies or any other office work. This is less interactive than an old Infocom "interactive fiction"… it even involves less problem-solving than purely visual story-telling in the mode of (point-and-click) "Monkey Island".

Man, I don't even want to add a statement considering this relative to expectations someone might have for "romance" (nor "prurient interest")… it would be equally embarrassing to Winter Wolves to comment on where this stands in that genre.

This fails any and all reasonable expectations… don't judge it by the demo and don't buy it…

I should have guessed how bad this game was from the fact that there are only three things you can buy at the mall (How lazy are the writers? There are freeware games with flexible plots that put this to shame, making "shopping" part of the strategy, problem-solving, etc., or changing the outcomes of story-arcs). Even if you don't buy the (one!) fancy dress at the mall, your character will appear wearing that dress in the later dialogues… really lame.

At the price they're now charging, I would give this game an F minus. If it were a lot cheaper, or even free, sure, I guess I'd instead say, "A bunch of Westerners tried to rip off the aesthetic of a Japanese dating sim with no clear creative direction, had lousy results, and barely managed to decorate the pictures with their abominable writing", and give a somewhat higher grade.

[jack_norton]

Heh, I won't go in details since I didn't write the game myself, though the author is "slightly" famous. Maybe you heard of the name "Christine Love" before, I think she writes well I agree that probably this is not her best work but is not so terrible as you describe it, I think.
Just for curiosity did you try my other games like Always Remember Me or Planet Stronghold ?

[papillon]

Just one thing

I take it these guys do not have anyone on staff

The game text was written by one person, there isn't a "staff".

Not arguing with your opinion, just clarifying.

[Auto-Anthropology]

Jack, it blows my mind that this person speaks English as a first language...

I take it that "Christine Love" = http://blog.scoutshonour.com/

I sure hope she has a talent in some language other than English…

For a really quick proof of just how terrible the dialogue in this game is, you could look at:
• The intro and outro texts taken together ("Dear Grandmother…")
• Any of the "date" dialogue grouped together ("Oh! It's too much! It's just too much!" … in a scene that starts nowhere and goes nowhere … awful…)
• Any of the "boring meeting scenes", examined in isolation or grouped together.

Please, pass along my disparaging comments to her: NONE of these scenes are well written enough to even be third-rate television… nor would they ever be published as scenes in a short story or novel. This wouldn't cut it as a romance novel, it wouldn't cut it as a mystery novel… it wouldn't cut it no matter how you slice it, man.

Obviously, you made a game with decent graphics and an interesting interface (and that's why I paid cash money for it… something I now regret…) but the writing is abominably bad, no matter what you compare it to, or how low your standards are.

The writing is so bad that there is no point in getting into what's wrong with the use of the "exotic" setting of Montreal, Canada, or anything more nuanced.

Genuinely, Jack, have you ever played a mystery game from the era of Infocom, or, dare I say it, the ancient "Portopia case"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Portop ... urder_Case

Visual novels are a very forgiving genre … but when you take the step from freeware to payware … well, in this case, one bad writer let down a whole team of hardworking people.

[jack_norton]

Haha I think she already read this, don't know if she wants to reply (probably not). She made the whole game though, so even the coding and interface was done by her (the art not of course).

I played some infocom games, surely, I was a fan of the IF at Commodore 64 times:) even if honestly I was too young (I think 12-13 years) and my English was even worse than now, so I don't remember much sorry ^_^;

[try10]

This game didn't exceed my expectations unfortunately. It was boring and the plot was hmmm how to say it *unique* in a bad way I mean

[applegirl]

Wow, don't hold back on your review

I've played basically all the Winter Wolves games (Always Remember Me, Planet Stronghold, Flower Shop) and Christine Love games (Digital, DTIPB). For me, Love and Order's strength was the art but had a bit of a downfall in the story/gameplay. It is hard to make a job as an assistant (fetch the papers, type out a report, etc) interesting, especially if you compare it to saving the kingdom (like in PS). I didn't have a problem with the writing though...if anything, it was an informal type of writing (similar to what you see in a person's inner dialogue).

Love and Order wasn't exceptional (like Planet Stronghold which I highly recommend) nor was it incredibly fun/deep (like Always Remember Me), but overall it was an interesting direction on a novel that had never really been done before. An actual everyday woman (an adult past her romantic teen years) who lived like one. It would be too easy to grant her magical powers and make this more of a game. I commend the courage to go this route, but it doesn't really translate to the best VN. I encourage you to play Digital or DTIPB because those were games that I believe to be much better representatives of why Christine Love is well known as a writer. She is very original in her VN planning and isn't afraid to take risks. I actually am really looking forward to her next VN (Analogue) and I think you can't judge a person by one VN. It just isn't fair. I think Love and Order was just too much of a slice of life game to really appeal to most VN players. Probably in the vein of Vera Blanc whose unpopularity (most likely due to art straying from the mainstream anime/manga style) still baffles me.

Do I think that Love and Order could have been as entertaining/memorable as Always Remember Me? Actually, I do. There were missed opportunities to make you care about the characters (I disliked having to run chores for them and feeling like the date changed nothing in the interactions). The storyline felt a bit impersonal to me since I didn't particularly care what happened. But I don't fault the quality of the writing, but the storyline/gameplay. Planet Stronghold is a huge favorite of mine because it has the best kind of gameplay that makes me want to play for hours on end (I have done so many times!) and it has a story that pulled me in (save a kingdom? heck yeah!). Always Remember Me wasn't as epic on gameplay (a typical stat-raising sim), but boy did I care about the characters! It was amazingly cute and worth every cent. My guess is people go into this game and leave wondering where the love in "Love and Order" actually went. It is there, but I think it was just too subtle.

Overall recommendation? Just try the demo and if you like it, buy it. Don't expect a romance that will sweep you off your feet and maybe you'll enjoy this VN more. If not, well...Winter Wolves has a lot of great games for sale.

[Auto-Anthropology]

I've started a separate thread on some of the broader (dare I say deeper?) issues I've raised in this rant:
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =6&t=12701
That ties the issue into a review (posted as a video by someone other than myself) of the mainstream (big studio) visual novel "Catherine" (something you guys at smaller developers may be looking at and thinking about comparatively).

I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on these issues, and I'm not looking to castigate Christine Love endlessly.

However, let me tell you: it isn't necessary to compare Christine Love's work to Tolstoy... Love and Order was unforgivably terrible even compared to "Re-Alastair" (and the latter is freeware with several elements in common with this game, such as time management, choosing where you eat lunch, and shopping at the mall, but Re-Alastair was vastly better-executed than Catherine Love's work --and is vastly better written, although it is also pretty much limited to the syntax of single sentences).

If you attempted to summarize the "mystery" in Love and Order, it would never pass a story meeting if you were trying to "pitch a story" at a meeting to "option a script". I really think that the people involved in making these games live in a sheltered demimonde that has no contact with the reality of screen-writing or book-publishing. People say that the entertainment business is mean and nasty, but the creative process benefits from people sitting down (with mutual respect) and talking through these issues:
"This scene doesn't make any sense... this isn't funny... we need to tighten it up... in this scene, what's the character's motivation? Why should the audience care what happens to him next?"

The vast majority of people need the discipline imposed by story-meetings of this kind: even if you're a top notch intellectual, you need to be challenged by other intellectuals who ask those questions. If there are no good answers, you scrap the scene, and start again.

Words like dramaturgy have gone out of style (right now the spell-check is underlining it as if it were mis-spelled... so it really has passed out of common usage!) --but the truth is that the fundamentals of writing a script haven't changed since Aristotle. Yeah, there's more than one way to answer those questions (such as get raised in a story meeting), but the nature of the questions hasn't changed; the art of looking at each scene, and constructing drama out of dry words, is something that doesn't budge with the centuries. In looking at something like Love and Order I can't help feeling some further revulsion in seeing this high level of artistry and computer-programming being used to back up F-minus writing that would never be considered "fit for print" in any other industry. If a novel was this badly written, nobody would pay to put a well-illustrated cover on top of it. Seriously: Love and Order would never be published as even a pulp novel... and I've seen plenty of books published by authors who are Asians who speak English as a second language (and, yes, I've worked as an editor myself, though in non-fiction).

If you tell me Catherine Love got famous by dumping things on the internet, so what? There's a lot you don't learn from dumping freeware on a blog (although that may gather fans around you), and a decent public library should have a dramaturgy section for her to start working from ... starting with Aristotle.

I think that a lot of this is worth thinking about beyond the particular example of Love and Order and so, as I said off the top, there's a separate thread spun out in case anyone wants to discuss or contribute outside of the "dark cloud" I've created with this review. http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =6&t=12701

[applegirl]

While I do agree that it is best to have a spin off thread for the suggested topic, I do feel like I should defend in some way this VN.
Did I enjoy this VN? Not nearly as much as the other Winter Wolves VNs. But is it the worst commercial VN I've played?

Not by a long shot.

Re:Allistar is an excellent VN that was free. But, I believe you cited an example that is extraordinary when compared to most freeware VN. I honestly believe Re:Allistar is one of the best, if not the best freeware VN out there. Even after all the time that passed, I can't think of many (or perhaps any freeware VNs) like it.

Look at sakevisual and the artist, those two groups know how to make excellent VNs. Is the writing like Tolstoy? Nope, but nobody cared because it was a fun VN.

All I'm saying is, this clearly wasn't the best VN made by either Winter Wolves or Christine Love. But, it isn't that terrible. Not to mention, this VN is fairly older. If you play the recent VNs by Winter Wolves (like Always Remember Me or Planet Stronghold), I think you might feel differently.

But I have to admit, I was disappointed in this VN. So, I can understand your frustration.

[jack_norton]

I only wanted to add that when everyone compares a otome dating sim they always quote Alistair, saying "and it's even freeware!". Sure, but that's a big exception and honestly I don't think we'll see another high quality game like that being given away as freeware anytime soon

[Wright1000]

Aristotle has got nothing to do with this visual novel.
I don't think it is a good idea to compare one of the world's best philosophers with other ordinary writers like us.

[Auto-Anthropology]

Re: Aristotle, I wasn't alluding to his philosophy, but to his dramaturgy...

I was insinuating that many of the concepts in his work on Poetics are still applicable even in VN, cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetics_%28Aristotle%29

They're also great words to show off at a cocktail party:
Mimesis
Catharsis
Peripeteia
Anagnorisis … etc. etc.

Re: Re: Alistair (ha!) … I wasn't aware that the game was so highly regarded. Given the remarks from Jack, perhaps we can say that it sets a new standard, or, at least, a new minimum standard?

As I said also, however, we can cast our thoughts back many, many years to find earlier precedents of interactive fiction… like Infocom (Western) and Portopia (Japanese)… I would hope that some authors/developers look back to those games to get some sense of direction (and/or minimum standard) too.

I would also like to say that "Re: Aristotle" is a great name for a Visual Novel… in no way a sequel to "Re: Alistair"