LSF Spirit (or "Dude, where's my forum?")

[LVUER]

Accepting/hearing critique is hard. Sometimes hearing your work being critiqued makes you frustrated and angry. I was like that several years ago, even though I know that some critiques could make you better.

The most important thing is to take the good critique and filter the rest. Don't let your feeling get over the top of you.

[KomiTsuku]

I swore I wouldn't get into this, but...

I'd rather hear something that might be a bit painful than to be completely ignored because people don't want to say anything bad. I see a lot of new, typically weaker VNs that pretty much get ignored because nobody wants to say anything that might be misconstrued as harsh. That hurts a lot more. Saying something tactfully, cool. Not saying anything at all, pretty depressing. Plus, people don't get better if they don't get help. I keep hearing about how people want to advance the quality of OELVNs as a whole. Well...

Anyway, not letting myself get drawn into debate. Just something to consider.

[Sapphi]

I agree with KomiTsuku on this one. Sometimes after you've put a lot of effort into something, it sucks to hear that your work still isn't satisfactory. But it's a lot better to get that feedback than none at all. When it comes time that I've got enough done on my project that I can put up a WIP thread, I would feel really sad and ignored if only a few people commented because the rest of the community didn't want to step on my toes.

IMO, when people critique, it shows that they care enough to read your work and try to help you make it better. I would rather cry over a few honest critiques than cry because nobody seemed interested in my project. :b

[Auro-Cyanide]

It always comes back to critique. Always I suppose because it is the heart, soul and nature of doing creative work. Because I have been doing art for awhile, I have gotten used to it. Yeah, it still makes me a bit angry and depressed sometimes, but as long as they gave we some solid reasons, well, I can actually work with that. Critique has seriously made me improve a lot. I have been told my ideas are boring, my anatomy is bad, my perspective is wrong and that I should never try to show people how to do things if I can't do it perfectly. My mother is actually one of my harshest, she told me my work was amateurish the other day. Annoys me no end, but I knew the work wasn't up to my usual standard.

Critiquing takes a lot of effort and I am usually honest with it. I say what I think, why I think it and how I think it can be improved on. I do take certain things into consideration, such as whether it is their first game as opposed to a forth, how honest they are with their own skills (I'm not going to harp on about something they already know) and how much respect they have shown the reader through the game (mostly the effort they have put in). I never try to hurt someone's feelings, but I do tend to call an apple an apple. I make sure to show them why I think something so that they can actually do something with the information. That is how I like to receive my critique and so that is how I give it.

[sake-bento]

The problem with critique (of any level) is that what you want or need isn't really what someone else wants or needs. People are presenting anecdotal evidence as if it's fact. Generalization over critiquing is dangerous.

When I first started playing piano, I was very bad at it. This is fact. My wrists were in the wrong position, I couldn't hold dynamics or follow a beat, and my ability to read music was dodgy at best. After my first round of playing "Twinkle Twinkle," the last thing I needed was feedback along the lines of:

"Your playing is dry and it lacks emotion. Your inability to keep the tempo is distracting and frustrating to the listener. I got lost several times while listening. The only real thing I can compliment is that you kept the dynamics right most of the time."

That critique is completely TRUE, but it sounds more like tearing me down than an actual attempt and helping me improve. That's the sort of critique a lot of us like to hand out, and it's not really the sort of critique beginners need. Of course, thirteen years later after I started learning Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu, the following feedback would have been utterly useless:

"Good job! It sounds great! You might want to be careful about focusing too much on what the right hand is playing, since it kinda overshadows the left hand. But other than that, it's great!"

It's also probably a true statement, but as an advanced pianist with good technical knowledge and skill, that doesn't really help me improve much. At this point, it's hand holding, and it's not useful to me if I want to be a better pianist.

Once you're better or more experienced, you naturally yearn for more in depth critique and criticism. Thing is, that's because you're READY for it. You've gotten past the stuff that beginners have to struggle through (like reading notes or playing chords), and you're ready to take on more. It's really not a good idea to assume that everyone else is at the same level as you, though, and when you hand out critique like that to beginners, it's more harmful than useful. I assume that we critique in the interest of helping others improve. I hope that we'll be able to offer critique at the proper level so that people actually WILL improve.

[Auro-Cyanide]

What Sake-Bento said is true, I will have to keep that in mind more often. It is hard to figure where some people are though. I find it easiest when they actually give some insight to their thoughts. Something along the lines of 'I had trouble with ...', 'I am still learning such and such' or 'I am proud of...'. That gives me some indication of where they think they are themselves and it is much easier to give them tips and pointers, what areas to be harsher on and what areas to be softer with. I am going to be more strict with the writing of someone who thinks they are a good writer compared to the art of the same writer because it is not their forte. In a way, by making such comments, they are guiding me to where and what they want critique on. Otherwise I'm not sure what to do. I just kind of give general critique, which may not be what they want. And sometimes I honestly have a hard time finding enough good things to say compared to the critique. I know you should always say something nice at the beginning and end to make them feel better and be positive about the critique, but, yeah, sometimes I find it hard. Sometimes all I can say that they did a good job getting it done. Jeez, maybe I am too harsh? I will have to try looking harder I suppose. I will definitely try to stop being a grumpy old crone and be more nice. I do critique people with the intention of helping and I don't want to hurt them. I will think more carefully about what I say to whom.

On the other side, we have a whole forum dedicated to help. There is a WIP section for ongoing feedback, a Skills section to get feedback on individual skills and a recruitment section where you can find proofreaders and testers. People should use them. By the time a game gets to the complete section, I expect it to be either the best that that person could do under the circumstances, or have them acknowledge that there are certain things that are not fully polished. I understand that, life is like that. Stuff happens, deadlines happen. Some of the games there are school projects and I don't expect them to be fully finished. I know I handed in enough projects that were barely holding together. No-one is perfect and everyone is on different levels. But I do think people should use the resources around them a little more. Ask for help if you need it, and everyone needs a proofreader for feedback. You are less likely to receive negative feedback on a game if you have already asked a couple people their opinions and tried to fix some of the issues. It also shows respect to the readers if you did your best to make it enjoyable and creative.

[DaFool]

Let me just say that I like the Japanese industry in that it has leeway even for unpolished works as long as they have more personality, such as in the doujin industry.

A while back me and my CEO were flipping through some Taiwanese comics trying to gauge the market. He immediately exclaimed to me "They're well-drawn, but they all look the same!"

Indeed, just look at any modern Korean or Taiwanese MMO character designs -- it's the same archetypes for beautiful people.

A lot of anime character designs look the same to the untrained eye, but it's definitely easier to tell artists apart.

I think criticism should be separated into "What I personally like/dislike, and what I think can be improved on a technical standpoint."

There is a time and a place for Kyoto Animation, but there is also a place for Studio 4C and Madhouse. Not all works needs the KyoAni treatment, otherwise we won't have Kemonozume. Even Shaft used to be even more insane (sorry to say I got bored with Madoka).

[lordcloudx]

Plus, people don't get better if they don't get help

Just no. Someone with a sincere desire to improve will get better with or without help.

[Blue Lemma]

Yeah, I don't think help is *necessary* to improve, but usually help... helps. There are some things you just won't think of on your own, and other people's perspectives can let you grow in your understanding and skills. There's always the risk of the motivation becoming too external that you have to watch out for, though.

[Kikered]

I agree with sake-bento wholeheartedly. More people ought to read this post before responding to completed works, WIP, etc.

[GeneDNC]

As a new member, I want to compliment the LSF members on overall being very friendly and welcoming. Even if it's not what it used to be, here's hoping we can only improve and build on what we have now. ^__^

On critique:

Some suggestions for all of us:

* read more posts with 0 replies and see if we can help
* don't post if you're angry, and take a moment to cool off instead
* consider the creator's experience level and pro/amateur status when giving feedback
Any other ideas?

This needs to be quoted and I think sums up with what sake-bento said. Although to any other newbies reading this (and post-newbies I guess), it's a good idea to specify your "experience level and pro/amateur status" to help the community give useful critique.

Personally I do find it hard to hear critique, but I will usually try and get past the emotional (sometimes knee-jerk) reaction and see the value of the suggestions, even if I have to take some time to "calm down".

What I think this site is doing very well is the WIP section, as critique is easier to hear and implement while you are working on something. I have personally struggled a lot with critique that is given on a finished project, since it feels like "well this is the best I can do and I think the finished product is not bad but apparently it's still not good enough." Like I said though, this problem can be overcome with the excellent WIP forum.

[ririruetoo]

I totally agree! Even if this is a forum and most likely none of us will ever meet in 'real life' that doesn't mean we don't have to be nice to each other! I think that people should be kind wherever they go ( be it cyberspace or outerspace ^_^)

[Taleweaver]

I usually follow the premise "if you have nothing good to say, stay quiet". However, I sometimes break my own rules and give brutally honest comments on works I consider bad. I do this even if the creator is obviously inexperienced, and the shortcomings of a work can be explained by this lack of experience.

However, I exclusively do that when people seem totally unaware of their own mediocrity. If someone thinks their run-of-the-mill, super-short and stereotypical "sad romance" VN is the greatest thing since sliced bread and praises their own work as such, I have no qualms to state my opinion in a not-quite-nice sort of way.

I honestly believe that as a creator, the first step to improving yourself is understanding your own weaknesses. It may not be in the spirit of this forum to point them out to others, but sometimes, I think it's necessary.

However, keeping the discussion civil at all times is a necessity as well. I never make attacks at the creator, only the creation, I refrain from calling people names, and I always offer whatever help I can give for people to improve, if they wish to do so. I don't want to make enemies by criticizing other works, I want to make sure there are better works in the future. That's my code of conduct, if you want to put it like that, and I hope it's an acceptable code of conduct for this forum.

[Cidz]

As a newbie who is BARELY working on my first VN (with a couple of people) I'd like to say that I dont mind harsh critism as long as they tell me why they think its horrible lol. I mean they can say stuff like "OMFG THIS IS TEH WORSE GAME EVARRR GO DIE IN A FIRE U L000ZZARRR GAH IMA GO KILL MAH KITTEH OVER THISS RAAARRRGGGGEEEE >____<!!!!" as long as they tell me why i should die in a fire, why my game wants to make them kill a kitten, and why its the worse game ever.

I understand that NO ONE is ever perfect and this applies even more when you are brand new at something. For example I've been sewing for around 3 years? and although im not the best when i look back at the very first things i make and compare those to the things ive made recently i see how much improvement i really needed. (really my old stuff doesnt fit right, its crooked, it has frayed edges, etc...) compared to now where i get compliments from people "wooooow you made that soooo goooodd! make me something!" so anyways, offtopic sorry, but what im saying is that whenever i get ready to ask for feedback im prepared for harsh critism and i rather have that honestly then have someone lie to my face and tell me "its uhm... good >_____> i think <____< yeaaaah" like i said as long as people tell me what or how i can improve on something.

afterall, no matter if you are a newbie or a veteran at anything (not just VNs) you should always be open minded to improvement and critism. because that is how you learn. my boyfriend for example is an excelent artist (he surpasses the art teachers in our college not kidding >_> ) and he still buys newbie books just to find one little technique hes hasnt learned yet. so i much rather be open to improvement and trying out different techiques. then just being like "WELL I DONT CARE IF YOU THINK MY GAME SUCKS YOU SUCK GAHHHHH ITS TEH BEST THING EVAR RAWRRRRZZ >____<"

I've even dealt out some critism too (not on this forum as i havent really played much ive commented on a few WIP threads on games that interest me) but like i said im working on a game with other people (2 other writers) and when they say something i think doesnt fit or i dont like ill speak up but i at least try and look for something that could work. for example one of the writers came up with this idea in the game and there were some parts i really did not get nor did i think fit it at all however there were some points in what he said that i thought we could work with so i said something along the lines of "ok uhm, i really dont get this and that and i dont think it fits however these parts i think we can work with, so lets go with this and see what we can do" sooo when it comes to critism i think its nice to do things like that, to tell a person whats wrong but also find points in what they said that maybe they can work with.

Also I've dealt with haters and people starting drama with me. usually if they are particular rude to me i straight up tell them "ok, if you want me to comply and listen to you. then you will have to be a bit more polite. if you want respect, you have to show me some as well." and although its harsh it gets people sometimes to calm down (i understand people getting caught up in the heat of the moment) and to step back and usually when i say that people are like "yeah, your right, ok im sorry" and act nicer to me lol. so when it comes to harsh critism or even rude remarks i dont think anyone should have to sit back and take it, speak up if you think they are being rude to you, but also expect that you will probably get a few people that will just fly off the handle and try to listen to what they say anyways and take it into concideration.

also, this has got to be the longest post i made on any forum in a looooooong time sorry for rambling and if it doesnt make sense and for my bad grammer lol oh and on a sidenote: no one here has given me any trouble of course ive barely made any posts lol but from lurking you guys alot i havent noticed anything really rude. of course i barely registered. but if it helps people around here seem nice.

one more note: for those that are new, it helps to lurk. thats why ive been lurking this place so much (even before i registered here), get a feel for the community, and the people, the rules, the lingo, etc.... you learn alot by doing that. so i suggest also to just lurk lurk lurk! who cares if you only have a few posts when it comes to posting about your game or asking for critism, if you have a feel for the users here and the way things work it might be easier to handle critism

[clannadman]

I think any feedback is important and you shouldn't shy away from criticism or critique. There's a reason why people may be negative about your work and surely it's better to know what that is so you can work on it in future releases or other works. Nobody grows or learns anything if they're just given a pat on the back and a 10/10. Criticism is not and never has been a sign of disrespect - true respect comes from honesty and the willingness to discuss and debate our opinions in a safe environment. It's not respect if you decide to sit on the fence and it's not healthy to be sheltered from views adverse to your own.

Stephen Fry on respect - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnSByCb8lqY