The New Games : Ren'ai or what?

[kara24601]

I've sorta been going through the new games and have noticed something disturbing , they're all either "puppy love" or something or something else...for example , Dante's Wrath definately has no ren'ai elements at all , Princess of Fire - seemingly stereotypical / typical "pretty princess and bard" tale , Hikari no Ribbon - friendship / puppy love ( ? ) between an elf and a human , Magic Boy - somewhat light hearted ( with seriousness that ends up not being very serious at all ) "magical girl" parody thing , ect.

Where's the ren'ai? Am I the only one confused by these entries? Most of them also made it on my "mixed feelings" list ....Don't get me wrong , alot of them have pretty good or great graphics and stuff , but there's also alot to be worried about. Being a "wannabe game creator" myself , I'm sorry if I am coming off as too harsh or something , I don't mean to be. Maybe it's just me , maybe it's just because it's been a while since I've played any ren'ai that the new games aren't feeling like "true ren'ai" to me , maybe it's just that I'm used to the "oldies" here and tend to forget most of these new games are from "newbies" in a sense ( new to me anyway ) or something like that....Quine , Dual Hearts , and Kiwi's Valentine are the only ones that made it to my "favorites" list / folder(s).

[lordcloudx]

guess you have a right to be worried... as for me, I write my stories the way I want to, so I'm not particularly worried about making them ren'ai or not.

Of course, I asked the PyTom if it was ok to post them here because I knew from the very beginning that most of my games weren't really ren'ai.

[mikey]

The loss of ren'ai has been discussed a bit here, but I agree that maybe it's good to talk about it more, even though I'm not sure that this will bring anything, as game-makers don't like to be told what to make.

Still, I'm with you on this, in terms of ren'ai, NaNoRenO 06 was a bit disappointing, no question about it. Then again, we got G!MB, which is probably the best produced VN here.

So, I suppose that with new fans a a lot of people now making games the shift from games focused solely on ren'ai to more general subjects with a pinch of love is inevitable. Also, it's probably not wise to limit the game-makers with ren'ai requirements when this is also a genreral Ren'Py forum. It's hard to predict whether the community will ever be strong enough to have the luxury of being divided like this, having a separate ren'ai-only sub-fandom.

Nevertheless, I am a ren'ai fan. It means that I will look primarily for ren'ai. Yes, other things are fine, and yes I like the VN medium. But without really substantial ren'ai, it loses a lot of the appeal for me and yes, recently there's been a growth in not-so-ren'ai titles.

, maybe it's just that I'm used to the "oldies" here

As far as my team goes, we will keep on focusing on ren'ai - I believe that SoD in fact was ren'ai, and our next project is planned as only about love, so I hope that those who liked our previous games' style, will still feel the same essence from our releases.

[kara24601]

*nods* Being a struggling game creator myself , I know I wouldn't be too happy about somebody telling me I should only do this or I should only do that...It's like this one time , somebody had a complaint of something along the lines of "Why don't you dedicate your entire site to Neo Pets?" I am interested in many things , not just Neo Pets. I guess I tend to forget that this is a "general" ren'ai forum and we do talk about things other than ren'ai from time to time. Like Mikey , I don't really have anything against other games and using the "VN format" for something other than a "Visual Novel romance" game or whatever....But I'm a ren'ai fan first when I come here. I expect ren'ai games. Thanks for your posts and your creations. ( even if they are not always ren'ai )

[monele]

Big question : how do you define a ren'ai game ? I've only fully played Magical Boy from the game you quoted and I thought it was ren'ai, so it seems I don't know the definition ^^;

[mikey]

For me, ren'ai not only means that a game includes some romance, it has to really focus on it or somehow be really in the centre of the game's design. It's not bad if a game has a good story plus a romantic side to it, but it's the truly love-only titles that make me happy and it's those games I consider to be ren'ai. It's not a quest for purity and elitism on my side, it's just that I like really romantic atmospheres, stories about love, relationship and so on.

[kara24601]

Unfortunately , ( or fortunately...depending on how you look at it ) , "ren'ai" it self can mean several things but the basic idea always boils down to a "romance" / "romantic love" of some sort. I think Magical Boy itself was more of a magical girl parody game than a ren'ai. Hmm, even though Kiwi's Valentine is really short and fruity , it's something I'd call ren'ai since it's about finding kiwi a date / has to do with Valentine's Day.
Oh , yeah , I keep forgetting the term "dating game". That is something that would qualify as ren'ai. Princess Maker , although it is a mix of stuff and it is mainly a "raising" game ( another genre I'd like to be able to see more of...I especially wonder where...if there are any...a place for fans of raising games....and fan makers of raising games / fan games with raising a virtual daughter / animal / boy / other being the main thing ) there are enough romantic elements in it that I would also call it a ren'ai game.

There's quite a few good articles... :

http://www.renaigames.net/art_mikey3.html
http://www.renaigames.net/art_mikey4.html
http://www.renaigames.net/art_mikey1.html
( geeze mikey are there any articles you HAVEN'T made yet? *giggles* )

Actually , check out all the articles there. They're all good reads.
Check out everything else there too.
http://www.renaigames.net/art.html

Dang , mikey , you beat me in answering the question...heh.
I'm even more laid back than mikey about what I consider to be ren'ai. As long as it has romantic elements to it and is what I would consider to be a good game , it's ren'ai to me.

[Alessio]

game-makers don't like to be told what to make.

Well, actually I do like people telling what they'd like to play. Since I like challenges and experiments, if an idea sounds intriguing enough I might go for it. For example, G!MB is quite different from what I'd have thought I'd be writing...

Then again, we got G!MB, which is probably the best produced VN here.

Whoa, thanks...! But I do think there's better ones here. This mikey guy, for instance... ^_-


IMHO, the main challenge is to make a Ren'Ai game that retains this special "true love" feeling witout picking up all the clichés and becoming the 500th variation of the "Find your girl at a Japanese School" theme. If I want schoolgirls there's tons of (commercial) VNs out there. So I'm actually very happy that we're not just a bunch of imitators but come up with own concepts that you can't find in a commercial game. Moonlight walks, Kykuit, Secretary Of Death... they're all Ren'Ai.

Granted, we should try to keep up the Ren'Ai flag here. But that brings me back to my first statement - I like to know what other people like, because it can nudge me into the right direction. I find myself having terrible trouble guessing what the audience might like, and I'm always terribly afraid of writing a cheesy soap opera instead of a romantic VN.

[mikey]

( geeze mikey are there any articles you HAVEN'T made yet? *giggles* )

Hmmm, there is actually one I am working on every now and then these days, but the topic is really a complicated thing to work with, so hopefully it turns out well and understandable...

Well, actually I do like people telling what they'd like to play. Since I like challenges and experiments, if an idea sounds intriguing enough I might go for it. For example, G!MB is quite different from what I'd have thought I'd be writing...

A challenge surely is another way of looking at it - I had several ideas for Tales Of Lemma Continues, writing a game with Eileen and perhaps tackling some of the subjects I really don't like - like making a fantasy game It would be nice to see what would come out and I'd definitely listen to ideas in that case.

But there's just too much of my own ideas I want to make first, so I keep on doing things and putting the challenging things on the shelf ^_^. As far as ren'ai goes, it's always a factor for me. In fact, i can't think of making a game without it. It feels so empty just thinking about it - I'd probably have huge troubles getting myself motivated.

[monele]

Ok. I just didn't understand it had to be a central part of the story. To tell you the truth, I was wondering if my game would feel ren'ai to you guys or not (given than I consider(ed) G!MB a ren'ai game myself and am straying even further away from ren'ai than he did ^^;...). I'm guessing it won't.
It's good that you guys keep exploring other aspects of the genre though (fantasy setting, mystery based plots, etc...)

[Watercolorheart]

To tell you the truth, I cannot read the whole thread because it takes too much time. However, my feeling on the matter is that the romance is not as important - it is the story itself. I would write a story for a story's sake.

For example, Red Shift tells a story of love and so does Narcissu, yet the love could be said to take "second place" to a greater story of pathos and drama and deciding the course of one's own life.

I only wish some of the newer entries impressed me with the basic merit of writing, which is simple: to entertain the audience.

Either my standards are too high, or the only one that I found remotely entertaining this year was Princess of Fire. I liked the hand-drawn art, and the fable-like tale. ITSDTTA and Flood of Tears seem remarkably "flat" to me. I know that many, many people will not agree and enjoyed Go! Magical Boy! and thought Quine was the greatest, etc. etc. but I am afraid that I can't be lumped in with that group.

[ShiraiJunichi]

I thought SoD was very, very much ren'ai. I don't know why mikey feels he has to state his opinion that it is- it seems obvious to me.

my feeling on the matter is that the romance is not as important - it is the story itself

I would disagree. I think if someone wants a really good story, they would watch anime, or read a book. Especially if they wanted to see really good writing. Professional writers, who put everything into writing a book, will in general produce better writing than amateurs who also have to worry about graphics and music.

My current project is definitely ren'ai. I'd say "Look forward to it", but now I worry that it may seem below desired standards. I'm not too confident about my writing skills. The story is simple and somewhat short (I'm currently estimating about 20 minutes). "Correct" choices will be pretty obvious. And it's a high school setting (I'll be really interested to hear mikey's opinion). Though, it's far from the "Which cute girl would you like to date?" kind of game. So, hopefully it won't feel cliched. And hopefully people will be able to relate- the few people I've shown the introduction to were touched, so hopefully everything will turn out well.

Woah- sorry about that shameless self promotion. Anyway...

Games without any ren'ai don't appeal to me. But if it's written well, and there's a substantial amount of ren'ai (like G!MB), then I like it. (IMO, the writing in G!MB was HIGHLY entertaining ^_^ ) I guess comedy can somewhat substitute for ren'ai. But if the game isn't funny, or doesn't have ren'ai, then I probably won't like it.

[papillon]

different strokes for different folks and so on. I enjoyed Quine and G!MB but have generally found lordcloudx's work not to my taste and just don't play them anymore.

Doesn't mean there's anything terrible about them, it just doesn't meet the style I want to read/play.

I'm here more for story than for ren'ai. I like romantic elements, but they're not the real focus of games for me. This should surprise no one, since most of what I write tends not to be ren'ai really. (Romance is an important part of the story of Fatal Hearts, but the player is being pursued more than pursuing...)

[mikey]

And it's a high school setting (I'll be really interested to hear mikey's opinion).

My favorite game this year so far is Katherine, and that's a school setting. It's hard for me to say just why I like this game - it has this indirect romance I like so much... which in fact brings me to...

different strokes for different folks and so on.

Well, people say that, but that's too easy for my taste ^_^. So... I've tried to find all the major factors that determine whether you'll end up liking a game or not, and I found quite a few...

- target group (age, mentality...)
- game genre (sci-fi, contemporary, magic...)
- game type (VN, RPG, dating sim...)
- game content/focus (ren'ai, story,...)
- setting (school, apocalyptic world...)
- presentation/style (mix of comedy/drama, fanservice YES/NO...)
- narrative style (lyrical, simple, verbose,)
- structure (flashbacks, continuous, parallel timelines...)
- graphics (are they appealing, do you care for them, etc...)
- special love (when you'll play any maid story, for instance)
- money (treating a bought game differently, boxed vs. download, expecting things...)
- creator info (anonymous creators vs. knowing all about them and the game)
- hype (hype is the creativity of the fan, expectation can't be met fully)
- time (you're not always in the mood, you're too happy to play a sad game, etc...)
- place (free time, atmosphere, playing at work during lunch break or at home at 2 a.m.,...)
- play mode (not being able to skip text, fullscreen/window...)

Actually, it's a really complicated thing, there are so many things that determine the outcome, that IMO it's impossible to be objective. So if one can't be objective, it's probably best to be at least fair - which, in general, I think we are.

[PyTom]

I'm less of a fan of the sort of game that ends when the characters have just met. (Call them "zeroeth date" games.) I prefer games where the characters have to deal with a little bit of hardship together... I'm always a fan of the big dumb romantic decision.