Everyone's a critic. Even me. Sorry.

[kara24601]

At first I couldn't think up a good title / thing to put as the subject....but then as I was reminded by my own typing what this was all about , I came up with something that I felt suited this....thing. Sorry if this is not as funny to you as it was to me.

Any way , while I hate getting criticism myself ( and I don't believe in "constructive" criticism myself which makes all this even more "funny" and difficult) and I don't particularly enjoy criticizing or feeling the need to critique others , it's like some people say...how will we learn from our mistakes if we only get "that's good!" type comments? I hate having to discuss this at all , but people bring up good points...yes , in a way , I agree it's rude to critique something to the creator's face but again , how will they ever learn / grow if they only recieved good commentaries? You know what I mean?

*braces herself*

[lordcloudx]

I don't think there's anything rude about pointing out what you don't like about a particular game. Like your criticism on Princess of Fire. Loses points for this, loses points for that etc.

What I believe would be rude is pointing out what you don't like about a particular game and then criticizing the author unless you know each other personally.

Anyway, constructive criticism doesn't really work for me either. I reply to all comments on my games but I when I start working on a new project, it's still my vision that makes it through and I have my own guiding principles and I don't really mind what people said about my last project.

Of course, even ruder are comments like "Anime sukz this game sukz don't download it." -From dual hearts on download.com

[mikey]

I agree with lordcloudx, it's not rude to comment, or to dislike someone's work. Concerning the "it's all stupid" comments, they aren't really comments in this sense.

I am also very happy about every single comment, and I will make adjustments in practical things - gameplay comfort and such. As fas as the "artistic" thing goes, well... in all honesty the first thing the game must fulfill is make me stand 100% behind it. It should feel like something I can always look back at and say I did that, that is my creation that I did with all the freedom I could have. It may involve going against the flow, but (this is a huge cliche, but it's true) if only one person likes it, it's worth the while.

As far as this forum goes, I also believe there should be a balance between encouragement and critique. Sure I can dislike a game, and I dislike some, but I also like the fact that their creators actually made them, so in this aspect I will encourage them and respect them regardless.

And, I think that in recent times, people here have become more open to criticism - as long as you feel support, it's not the end of the world if your game has flaws. Sometimes that even makes them stand out and be memorable.

[RedSlash]

IMO, If one is receptive to receiving complements, then one should equally be receptive to receiving criticism as well. Otherwise, comments for your work become extremely one sided and you are only fooling yourself to thinking that most people like your work. Ofcourse it's fine that you might not care what others think of your work, or that your work is meant to be the way it is, but if thats the case, then comments become quite meaningless to providing feedback to your work. The purpose of constructive criticism is to provide input to what a person thought could've been done better, but not necessarily an indication that it would be better with the change that person suggested. So you should not feel bad if someone dislikes your work.

[PyTom]

That being said, I think it's only polite that the criticism offered is constructive. It's one thing to say "I felt that the two character's arcs were too similar, given their different personalities", while it's something else to say "I filed it in my 'CRAP' folder.". The latter doesn't help anyone, and seems a bit rude.

[musical74]

Criticism, eh?

I agree with Pytom on this. If you are going to criticize a game, do it in a constructive matter. For example, saying *I felt that A and B were too similar as far as dress, style, and personality* is a lot more informative than saying *I hated it!* OK...WHY did you hate it? Did you hate it because you don't like the genre? (No horror games for me!) Did you feel it was done too quickly? Was there some part of the game that disagreed with you? Just saying *I hated it!* doesn't do much because it doesn't saying anything outside of the person hated the game. If I'm going to critique a game, I'll point out what I liked about it (The music in GSK - TOP NOTCH!!!) and what I didn't like about a game. It's common courtesy for me to tell a gamemaker what I liked about it and what I didn't like...that way they have an idea what someone likes and dislikes about their game.

[kara24601]

I'm sorry if anyone took offense at my "mixed feelings list" or "mixed feelings folder" type comments. I didn't mean to come off as rude. Even if I did thought anybody's work was absolute crap , ( which I didn't ) , I would more likely not bring it up or encourage them to keep working and practicing than say it was crap , even if I was trying to be polite about it.

[F.I.A]

I have read before of a book about leadership, and it contains a comparison of results from critiques and praises. While the results show that group which are praised improve better than those critiqued, I rather digress it due to my own opinion.

I personally don't think that constructive critics are bad for one's improvement. If one goes "soft" and does not point the flaws in one's works in fear of stabbing the potential once and for all, he/she might end up pampering the maker. Not a good thing for one who needs to thrive.

Unfortunately, I know of frigid individuals who might be rather agitated if one critiques instead of praises. I might sound a bit harsh on the next word, but if one yearns for nothing but "OMG! That is nice!" or "I like it!", he/she better off stops. Else, he/she might feel even agitated when new flesh rises and tops his/her works.

Thus, my own ratings on various critiques and praises:
Good critiques - "The body proportion is a bit off. Refer to a mirror or so for a good view how the hand should be drawn."
Bad critiques - "I don't like this style.(Without stating what is wrong with it.)"
Idiotic critiques - "This is 5h1t11111"

Good praises - "Good job in the shading. It actually gives form to the hand instead of looking flat."
Bad praises - "Wow! This is cool!" (Keep in mind that while such praises are normal, it is useless if the maker yearns for comments on it)

That's my own opinion on the subject, but it definitely does not sound "kind".

[RedSlash]

I personally would treat "I don't like this style." as an opinion rather than a critque. I wouldn't want people to have to justify everything they say everytime they post a comment. For me, I would accept "I don't like this style" but "This is 5h1t!!!!" would not be accepted under my standards because the latter is just rude.

[kara24601]

Just for the record , I'm not into "pretty princess" type stories 'cause it's overdone and girls like me get tired of that stuff fast. Don't get me wrong , put her in new clothes and make her not so stereotypical and Princess Peach and other characters like her become alot more fun and they are always cute but I'm more into rebellious princesses ( well the one in princess of fire seemed rebellious now that I think about it so...yay ) but even more into / would prefer a story about a queen having to make a hard decision or a slave girl fighting for her freedom or something like that. Strong , intellligent , capable women who never or rarely need ( or even want for that matter! lol ) a man to help them solve a mystery or escape the guards or whatever the basic plot is. Oh , and color always plays a big factor too , the more Pink there is , the more I want to hurt the creator. My favorite colors are Black , Red , Blue , Purple , and Gold. In a ren'ai , if the queen is in love with a male or something , he could be a farmer or something...a forbidden love because of the "class" difference. If the slave girl is in love with a male , it could be another "class difference" case or another slave. Or either character could be bi or lesbian...creating even more drama and unique situations. Hmmm...In male characters , again...they could be bi or gay or straight but crossdress or something. I love visual kei , furries , bishounen , ect. I can't really think of too many overly aggressive or annoying guys right now...but if it's the type of male character you normally create , give another idea a chance. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of making "overly effeminate" guys , then you could make him a soldier or something but have to deal with people mistaking him for a girl or something...a guy that's not nessicarily overly aggressive or anything , but just full of spit and vinegar..just enough to let the world know he means business. You know what I mean?

A bit of a recap and in closing : Either gender - strong , intelligent , kind characters ...Female - Strong and intelligent over giggly Pink wearing / loving girly girl ....Male - gentle and kind over typical "macho macho man...I've got to be a macho man" types...lol

[lordcloudx]

oohh.... you wish to hurt me?
Demo... chibi phaedra wa kawaii desu ne?

hehe just kidding

I see that's your type of story not mine though. I think I can relate with you. My older sister loves writing shounen-ai stories/fanfics and feminine guys. I don't.

however, I think the girly bishounen stereotype and yaoi/yuri pairings are actually more cliche and overdone than normal straight pairings nowadays which is why I steer clear of those character types in my stories. You can get enough of em in ff, fictionpress and aff.

Forbidden love because of class differences is also overdone. Movies, anime, tv series, fanfics etc. (of course, you can always add a different twist to the story like making the guy the weakling but that's a tool that most commercial manga/anime writers regularly use.)

and... macho Forte Schtollen type females aren't really my type so there's no chance of any making their way into my stories cept maybe as side characters used as plot devices to add more dialogue or advance the story.

[kara24601]

Forte Schtollen

Never heard of it , sounds interesting though.
Hmm , maybe I'm a bit out of touch but I disagree that all I suggested is overdone. I still see more stereotypical macho guys and weak girls in stuff ...wether movies...anime...games..or whatever than I do the kind of characters I like. I've noticed some games on places like jlist that aren't like most of the games you can find to buy ( such as this "gothic adventure" thing about alchemy and it's the only game I've seen so far like it. same goes for yaoi games...yaoi games ...especially English yaoi games like Enzai or whatever didn't show up until "recently" like in 2001 or so .... ) Thanks for posting.

[monele]

Kara : obviously you have very specific tastes, and you're not the only one. But it leads to seeing many games and stories that won't fit them. I'm not sure you'll find any game that totally fits your tastes unless you make one yourself (but then you can't really play it...). It's all about finding the little things you like among other things you won't mind too much

About clichés/overdone stuff : Everything is overdone when you look at it. Ok, not *everything* but it's become incredibly hard to come up with something that is truely original.
Chances are, whatever topic your VN is about, it will have been done already. What will make the difference is execution. You can have identical topics done with different moods. I'm also a believer of "mixes" as a way to bring out originality.

Let's see... the usual shy bookworm girl with glasses. Overdone. The usual loudmouthed tomboy. Overdone. *shakeshakes* Loudmouthed tomboy bookworm girl with glasses.... *blinks*. Um... It lives ? ^^;
Let's try again... catgirl : overdone. Vampire : overdone.... Vampire catgirl!.... Has there ever been any ? (if so I'm interested :3)

The problem with clichés and countering them with their opposites is that it creates new clichés. When the tomboy is oh so shy and sensitive, it's not the tomboy cliché anymore but it's certainly a new fake-tomboy cliché.
In the end clichés are not really a problem. People love clichés! The ones that appeal to them :p... and then they just ignore that they're clichés too.

The solutions I see is either embrace the cliché and push it as far as possible (mostly for comedic effects), or complexify the character by mixing clichés and make him/her more realistic.

[lordcloudx]

Forte Schtollen is the guns-otaku leader of the galaxy angels (not sure about the spelling, I spell em as I hear em). There's an anime, a manga, and game all with different stories.

back to the topic. In the end, I believe that each character used in a story should be deemed to be alive in the author's mind no matter how similar he/she is made to another existing character.

[mikey]

I still see more stereotypical macho guys and weak girls in stuff ...wether movies...anime...games..or whatever than I do the kind of characters I like.

I do agree. There are minimal exceptions these days, eveyone seems to be obsessed with "designing" characters. What it is, is just an exaggeration of an aspect of the personality, because, naturally, ordinary never sells.

More often than not, I just can't see anything else behind it. It's become a habit and very common practice to let the character attributes like being aggressive or shy completely dominate the conversations, and in turn they all feel very one-sided. Surely I'm not going to say this the first time - I don't like character design. Choosing a personality, making sure that personality manifests in conversations etc.. and all those sorts of things. In anime and VNs it's all about how the characters interact - the shy with the aggressive, the indifferent with the caring and so on. Resulting in comedy and drama. But this is simply wrong, it's just too basic and nothing has any depth as a result.

The typical VNs are way too focused on their selling point, the characters - you have to like them, you date them. Because of this, the personalities almost never show in situations, but just in interactions. The maximum the VNs ever manage is to try to mix it up by the player finding out about a different side to the girl - the most cliched is that aggressive girl who in fact is loving and then she even cries.

Back to the point - I understand that people feel that everything is mostly stock characters, or their variations. It's simply the character-oriented nature of anime productions. But, there are also things that don't follow the rules that much - I found Eve Burst Error quite good in this aspect, mainly because the main characters, especially Marina, were very normal - just like a person you can have a nice conversation with.