Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
User avatar
Blue Lemma
Forum Founder
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:32 pm
Completed: ToL, Shoujo Attack!, Lemma Ten
Projects: [RETIRED FROM FORUM ADMINISTRATION - CONTACT PYTOM WITH ISSUES]
Contact:

Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#1 Post by Blue Lemma » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:31 pm

Greetings forum members and lurkers,

As you may know, I started this forum back in January of 2003. It was meant to be just a small board dedicated to discussions of my game projects. Back then, people here were close-knit, courteous, and well-meaning. I will always look back upon those days with members like mikey, Jerails, monele, some high school friends of mine, and some others very fondly. The beginning years were the golden era of the Lemma Soft Forums, in my nostalgic opinion. :D
lsf2004.png
The early days :) Sadly my artistic skills have improved little since then.
The forum has grown over time, and has somehow become one of the primary destinations (if not THE primary destination) for discussing original English-language visual novels and their development. It gave me a sense of pride that a little game and website I made helped act as a catalyst for the creation of Ren'Py and a community that creates some very neat games. All of you make this forum what it is: a generally nice and positive place where people express their creative ideas. For that I give you my sincere gratitude.

Unfortunately, as the forum has grown, the number of "incidents" has grown as well. These are usually brought to admin attention through PMs or thread flagging, and they usually involve Member A complaining that Member B is being rude, or that he/she said something unconstructive. Often times very petty issues, to be completely honest. I and the other admins have dealt with them as we've best could to our ability. Of course, any time there is a conflict, there's a strong chance that Member A and/or Member B won't be happy with the outcome, and so besides calmly discussing their issue with us privately they:

* email us lengthy diatribes
* gripe about us in random locations on the internet (usually involves swearing, name-calling, and general slander)
* PM and/or email other forum members complaining about the "horrible injustices" they perceive the forum staff to have perpetrated
* any combination of the above

Let me be clear: The vast majority of the members here do NOT engage in this ridiculousness. However, when you have thousands of members, even a small percentage of people being a headache means we're dealing with these sorts of issues on a regular basis. It has been particularly bad this year, and life is too short for me to be mired in the online dramas of other people: People who do not follow basic online etiquette. People who troll. People who exploit the forum for their own personal monetary gain and then turn around and negatively misrepresent it and its administration. People who lie and deceive. People who have a chip on their shoulder and are here to push their own self-righteous agendas.

Therefore, though it is with a heavy heart, I am resigning as an administrator effective today.


As I will no longer have responsibility towards the maintenance of this community, I think it's a good time to have a nice little mental cleansing and get some things off of my chest that I've been holding in for several years. I have been VERY patient towards people who create issues on the forum for the last nine years. Do you know how many bans I have issued (that were not for spamming?) Zero. In nine years. And yet some people like to compare LSF to a police state when I lock a thread, and me to some cruel dictator. To each his or her own, I guess.

I give you Lemma's Lessons for Forum Administrators and Members:

1. One percent of the people create 99% of the issues.
2. Bigger is not always better.
3. If you have nothing better to do than troll a forum or whine about it incessantly, please get a life.
4. If someone offers an apology for an incident, that does not mean everything the other person did is okay. An apology is taking responsibility for the things you did, not a statement that all other actions by the other party, before and after, are justified.
5. I should have closed this community off years ago and made it by invitation only, with the possible exception of the Ren'Py forum. When you let anyone join, any moron with a keyboard and internet connection can come in and stir up trouble.
6. If you participate on a forum, you are agreeing to abide by moderator actions. Stop whining, especially if we didn't even "warn" or "ban" you.
7. If you are convinced you can administer a forum better than we can, and that all issues that arise are so black and white, by all means - go make your own forum. Seriously, I encourage it. And when it gets big enough, and you have to deal with enough difficult people, you will realize how wrong you were.
8. You cannot reason with unreasonable people, and you will only be the worse for trying.
9. I don't receive revenue for the forum. Don't say you are "supporting" me, the other admins, or the forum when you post, like you are doing us some big favor - especially when you are engaging in self-promotion. You are posting because you want to.

So yes, I'm fully aware that from many people's perspective this is coming out of nowhere and sounds petty. For me, though, I've been living it for nearly a decade. Virtually all these things happen behind the scenes. I am tired.

To lordcloudx: I used to respect you quite a bit. I never told you this, but I had at one point seriously considered offering you an admin role. (Thankfully I did not, as that would have obviously been a mistake.) If my recent exchange with you and your subsequent actions were in isolation, I wouldn't be leaving the forum. But they were the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. You will be the first and last person I ban for non-spambot reasons (cursing at an admin, threatening the forum, and spamming PMs.) You have helped to push me over the edge and have made this forum a place I no longer wish to be around. Congratulations. Step up and claim your Anti-Lemma Prize.... whatever it is. Be proud. Delight in whatever perverse joy you may derive from me giving you so much airtime. No one can ever take that away from you.

I was intending to keep our conversation private out of respect to you, but you have already posted parts of it in several places. Since you have decided unilaterally to make our communication public, I am happy to help it get the exposure it deserves. In the interest of people knowing exactly what we wrote to each other, I am including our full exchange here so that people can make up their own minds:
cloud.zip
(1.16 MiB) Downloaded 309 times
I have also included your twitter posts from multiple occasions in the past where you claim to be a certain member of the forum. This makes your claim - that my belief that there was some connection between you and this member offended you - disingenuous, to say the least. Whether you were joking or not with those posts, who knows. But it raises a very reasonable suspicion, along with the "circumstantial evidence." Note I did not claim to think you WERE this person (though I said it was a possibility in my mind.) Just that there was a connection. And apparently that's all it took for your true colors to come out and for you to start lashing at me, PyTom, and the forum.

lordcloudx has given his commentary and argument on another thread, so even though I practically never do this, I am going to give mine here and call him out for his unacceptably poor behavior. I have let these things slide over the years way too often and let people use me as a doormat. That ends here. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine:
Blue Lemma wrote:Are you NewMember, and/or have you ever encouraged NewMember to troll this forum or expressed pleasure at him having done so? Honestly. You get the meaning of what I am asking, and I request a truthful answer - not a "look for loopholes" type answer like some people give.
lordcloudx wrote:No, I happened to become associated with him when I offered to do some of his sprites on a whim, coincidentally after a disagreement with PyTom.

My offer for a compromise in the form of an unconditional apology stands.

My demands are simple, but if they are not met, I AM going to take action -- and I can guarantee that the outcome won't be pretty.
Blue Lemma wrote:I was inclined to offer an apology, but threats are unacceptable.
lordcloudx wrote:Suit yourself. I'll be taking action within 3 days from this final PM.
Blue Lemma wrote:I'm curious as to what sort of "action" you think is justified from me telling you in private that I believe you had a connection to NewMember. No one will win from escalating things.
lordcloudx wrote::). Let's just say that it's pretty easy to bring down a forum.
Blue Lemma wrote:And what would that accomplish? That would make you better than a troll?
lordcloudx wrote:Vengeance, BL. Plain and simple vengeance.
Blue Lemma wrote:Vengeance for...? Nothing has happened to you.
And nothing had. I had issued no warning, no ban, and I had kept our conversation private. (He, on the other hand, had been attacking LSF publicly for months.)
lordcloudx wrote:But something is certainly going to happen to your forum. My offer stands.
I offered this, but it was not good enough to satisfy cloud, apparently:
Blue Lemma wrote:In the interest of being fair and adhering to something I said to someone a while back, I do apologize to you for offense I caused by saying I was convinced there was a connection between you and NewMember regarding trolling. False accusations are not good, and whether they are based on evidence or not, it feels the same to the person accused. So for this I am sorry. An apology should not be conditionally based on something else, because you either did something wrong or didn't - regardless of what else goes on.

That is what I owe you, and I do mean that apology, even if I have issue with your threats and believe you are wrong in issuing them.
Then again, looking at the tweets he made, cloud made a connection himself, so now that I look at everything again, that was an unwarranted apology. If you don't want me to tell you I think you have a connection with a person, don't publicly state you are that person.

Drivel as it is, if you are curious, I encourage you to read the entire PM thread so you do not unfairly judge me or lordcloudx. And if you believe I was in the wrong in my messages, I would like to hear that. I don't claim to be perfect after all, but I do take responsibility for what I write. I have nothing to hide here. And people, don't harass cloud. That's not what this is about. He is banned, and he and the forum will go their separate ways.

Ah, forum drama. Nothing like it. :roll: Anyway, this is the kind of ridiculousness and headache I've had to deal with for years now. In the past, I have just taken the abuse and largely bitten my tongue. But you can see why it's hard and hopefully understand why it is no longer something I can do. Therefore, I ask for and appreciate the forum members' understanding about why I feel the need to leave already. Despite all the good things I've seen and been a part of over the years, such incidents make this just no longer worth it.

May you all create great games and treat each other, PyTom, and sake-bento well. I will be following your efforts and cheering you on in my own way.

- Blue Lemma
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.”
- Napoleon Bonaparte


I've retired from forum administration. I do not add people to the "adult" group, deactivate accounts, nor any other administrative task. Please direct admin/mod issues to PyTom or the other mods : )

User avatar
Stripe
Regular
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 pm
Projects: secret!
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#2 Post by Stripe » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:40 pm

Man, I always hate hearing about drama on the Internet. It seems like such a ridiculous way to bring people down. ;n;

Thank you for everything you've done for the community.

User avatar
Abeiramar
Regular
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:37 am
Location: Portugal
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#3 Post by Abeiramar » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:47 pm

what? This is too sad ...

Don't quit :( . But I guess you've suffered a lot to keep carrying on...

User avatar
ScottySeng
Regular
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:57 am
Completed: May-Chan
Projects: Fairy Tale, What do you see
Skype: scottyseng
Location: Carrollton, TX
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#4 Post by ScottySeng » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:53 pm

I've only been here for a few months, but I can acknowledge the hard work you've done and probably the suffering you've gone through.

It's sad to see you go, but my best wishes to you, wherever you go in life.

Thank you for all you've done, and good luck.

User avatar
KomiTsuku
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1023
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:32 pm
Completed: Dreams of the Skies, Anton's Vacation, Luka, The Halberd and The Tiger, Rising Angels, Pyrite Heart, Rising Angels: Reborn, The Halberd and The Fox, VN Tycoon, RA: Hope
Projects: Rising Angels
Organization: IDHAS Studios
IRC Nick: Komi
itch: idhas
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#5 Post by KomiTsuku » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:55 pm

I have to agree, this hasn't been a particularly positive year and you aren't the only person to consider hitting the road. v.v I wish you the best of luck down the road.

User avatar
Pugfarts
Regular
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:05 am
Projects: I Will Hold Your Hand
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#6 Post by Pugfarts » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:01 pm

..so who's in charge now? Am I in charge?

User avatar
Kura
Regular
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:43 am
Completed: Chasing the Sun
Projects: RESET
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#7 Post by Kura » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:08 pm

Thank you for everything you've done for us and the OELVN community. I always felt that this forum was a remarkably friendly and welcoming environment, and I know that your commitment to fair administration has been a big part of that. It's sad to hear that you wish you'd kept the forum small, but I really appreciate that you did allow it grow into this big community that it is today and that I love so much. It's really a shame you've had to put up with so much over the years, but thank you for sticking through it.

Best wishes with everything you do here on out!
Devblog :: Kura's VN Projects and Resources
Complete Chasing the Sun [a meditation on light] :: In Progress RESET [guilt, love, existentialism, and video games]

User avatar
LVUER
King of Lolies
Posts: 4538
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm
Completed: R.S.P
Location: Bandung, West Java, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#8 Post by LVUER » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:08 pm

I see. That's really too bad. This is not the first time, if I'm not mistaken... so I can't really say anything to stop you from leaving. But you're not going to disappear completely right? Perhaps you're still lurking this forum... or at least we could still PM or email you? Gonna miss you, you know?
"Double the princesses, quadruple the fun!" - Haken Browning (SRW-OG Endless Frontier)

DeviantArt Account
MoeToMecha Blog (under construction)
Lolicondria Blog (under construction) <- NSFW

User avatar
moxie
Regular
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:40 am
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#9 Post by moxie » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:13 pm

Thanks for a lot of things, Blue Lemma. I know I'm only a newbie here, but I've hung around here quite a lot before I made my account. I really appreciate the way you built up the community and started this whole forum. It's given a lot of joy (and yes, some headaches, I can see), and is a great place to hang out in the internet. The community as a whole is very constructive, helpful, and kind, and i know that's a lot of it's due to the hardworking team here.
Thanks for your presence and your time, I wish you all the best.

User avatar
Rewritten Ennui
Veteran
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:50 pm
Organization: TwinTurtle Games
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#10 Post by Rewritten Ennui » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:19 pm

Is there no other way to go about this? I haven't been here as long as other users here, but I enjoy the atmosphere of LSF. Most of the threads are friendly, though you do get a few that are pretty serious or hostile in nature. I usually try to avoid them, but admins have to pick through them all, huh?

If you can't be persuaded to stay any longer, then know that I'm grateful you've managed to stay this long. I guess that it's the fate of nearly all internet communities to become infested with trolls or jerks eventually; the fact that the internet links everyone to anyone in the world simply increases the chances of running into the rude sort of people.

Once again, thank you and I wish you the best.
I've swapped accounts to CheeryMoya, so this account is no longer in use. Refer to the new account if you want to contact me.

Twinturtle Games Website

User avatar
Omnificent
Veteran
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:23 pm
Projects: FA:NG, ???
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#11 Post by Omnificent » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:23 pm

It's unfortunate, but as someone who used to be a moderator on another forum I understand. The strain of managing people's tempers and petty arguments for no profit gets to even the most even-tempered of people, and I can't imagine doing it for nine years straight, let alone as an administrator. I hope that you aren't entirely burnt out on the OELVN community, though.
Forever Alone: Nerds the Gathering - A brotome game. (Nerdy Valentine's Day Card and small status update 2/14/14)
Night at the Hospital - Maiden voyage of Team Snugglebunny
Skylessia: Tale of the Boon - Epic fantasy whatsit, currently on hiatus.
Viking Pipsqueak Productions Blog (under construction)

I occasionally frequently draw other people's characters. Now offering delinquentization, medievalization, and cyborgification. Hit me up in PM if you want sprites for your KN or non-ren'ai VN.

EVEN IF THE TENDONS OF MY THUMBS TEAR INTO NOTHINGNESS, EVEN IF I GO NEARSIGHTED FROM STARING TOO HARD AT THE SCREEN, EVEN IF MY BODY IS CLOSE TO COLLAPSE FROM THE 72 HOURS I HAVE GONE WITHOUT FOOD! I WILL DEFEAT YOU!

User avatar
Sapphi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:31 am
Completed: Boku no Taisetsu na Yumeko
Projects: Twelve, PAW ★ PRINTS
Organization: Kitsch-soft
Location: Illinois, USA
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#12 Post by Sapphi » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:41 pm

Aww... this is really sad... :(
Thanks for everything, Blue Lemma. You'll still be around, won't you?
"It is [the writer's] privilege to help man endure by lifting his heart,
by reminding him of the courage and honor and hope and pride
and compassion and pity and sacrifice which have been the glory of his past."
— William Faulkner
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬..+X+..▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Image

Fawn
Moe Imouto
Posts: 911
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#13 Post by Fawn » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:51 pm

I understand your absolute frustration at the 1% that has plagued this forum- they may seem small but they really are a pain, just like splinters.

But, if you're leaving just because some immature pricks have complained about the forum... Don't.

This happens to every forum everywhere. Everywhere. Not only forums, anything social where pricks can frolic about. There will always be drama because of them, and will always hate. Don't get mad- just ignore. Let them grovel over meaningless things like the little maggots they are, they'll get it out of their system eventually and find someone else to bug. If there's actually an issue, more than one person will complain and action should be done, one person's negative opinion of policy doesn't mean much.

Despite this, you do need a break after what you've gone through here. You deserve to be a forum civilian for awhile. Just don't leave entirely because of a couple splinters ;)


P.S. I also want to say thanks for starting the forum (like everyone else has), and that I admire your patience over the years. It's really hard to be nice when people are being batshit insane, unreasonable and/or just plain mean. I've seen you and the other admins handle these situations very well over the years; it has kept the forum friendly.

User avatar
LVUER
King of Lolies
Posts: 4538
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm
Completed: R.S.P
Location: Bandung, West Java, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#14 Post by LVUER » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:00 pm

Agree with Fawn 100%. Of course I would be very happy if Bluelemma just take a vacation and back to us.
"Double the princesses, quadruple the fun!" - Haken Browning (SRW-OG Endless Frontier)

DeviantArt Account
MoeToMecha Blog (under construction)
Lolicondria Blog (under construction) <- NSFW

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Goodbye From Lemma - Thank you for 9 years of VNs

#15 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:11 pm

This is so sad. I will truly miss how friendly you are on the forums, how you welcomed the new people, how you kept your cool even when you were discussing things with other people. I admired how you appeared as an admin and as a person and I'm so very sorry to see you leave, even if it is totally understandable. Internet drama BS could bring down a saint.

Goodbye I suppose, I hope you come to lurk on occasions.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users