Get that thing off your chest... Now...

[Sapphi]

Plus, a lot of people can be sensitive with their work because the medium is so personal. Literally putting your story for anyone to read and evaluate? Heck, I can't do that. I don't like making people feel bad either and any time I put non-favorable post on a VN thread, I just feel bad. Like, I probably ruined that person's day just by making that post. Dunno if I'm just overthinking it though.

I wish people gave me more feedback. D8

I'm terrified to give a lot of feedback on Lemmasoft. I restrain myself from giving any except to members I am positive can take it in the manner it's meant to be received. Too many people go to pieces over criticism, which is a shame. I'd love to give the detailed feedback and analysis I was trained to give in art school and at the studios I worked at, but too many would take it as a personal attack or hate me.

I'll tell you what ruins my day and makes me go to pieces.
FEELING IGNORED.

Seriously, even if you hate it, just tell me, PLEASE. I know I haven't posted much content on the main part of the board yet so this is more of a general rant, not a "Hey, you guys failed me", but it takes courage for me to post on this board. Like my heart starts beating faster and everything. I'm excited to show my work and I want to know what people think. The worst thing is coming back and finding no comments. I'd rather have a comment that kicked me to the ground and made me cry than no comment at all, if the points were valid. Because in the end, comments like that will keep me coming back and trying to improve. NO COMMENTS will make me say "Screw this, nobody wants me here and I'm probably just annoying everyone with every keystroke, I'm leaving."

If I sound a little upset it's because I get ignored IRL all the time. Seriously. People will be asking questions like "Does anybody know X?" and I will SAY THE ANSWER LOUDLY, OUT LOUD, and nobody will hear me. When I was a kid, I was one of the smartest kids in my grade and usually had my hand up before all the other kids. I thrived on the teacher's attention - then they started IGNORING my raised hand and WAITING for other children to answer. It was sometimes minutes before another hand went up. An agonizing eternity for a little girl who just wanted to make the teacher happy. One teacher got snotty with me because I started waving my hand frantically - I honestly thought she didn't notice me - and said "Just because you do that doesn't mean I'll call on you!" So I admittedly have a bit of a complex, but seriously. Feeling like you're not even worth someone's time to comment is the worst feeling in the world.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I do think there's something to gain by asking questions to clarify what they meant, or discussing certain issues that they bring up, just to gain even more insight.

That's fine as long as it is honestly to get them to clarify what exactly they didn't like in more detail, and not a round about way of contesting their opinion or defending your work. And discussion is fine as long as it happens from the standpoint of you already having accepted that their criticism was right and you were in the wrong. Then you can mutually discuss ways to make it better.

The big take away for accepting criticism is to ACCEPT it. It doesn't matter if they were right or wrong. In fact, most amateurs don't have enough experience or lack of ego to recognize the validity of criticism one way or the other. It is far too easy to say, "That person is just a troll." or "That's just their opinion." You need to objectively look at your project or work like a complete stranger and try to see it without the love-blinders on. The objective isn't to get in a fight or argument with the person giving the criticism, even if they ARE a troll. Instead, you ACCEPT the criticism and say "Thank you for taking the time." then file it away for evaluation.

@SAPPHI
I agree with the feeling. To me as an artist, that is the worst feeling in the world, to have someone look at my art and say NOTHING. But again, I am gun-shy on these forums because so many people SAY they want feedback, then fight you point for point once they get it. But I'll try and add you to my mental list of members it is safe to critique in the future.

[Mink]

I'm not on that list? D8 Because it makes me a sad bunny when I ask for constructive criticism/feedback and don't get it.

Really, if I didn't want it, I wouldn't ask for it. 8|

~Snip~

Aw, I had a similar problem in class, which was people acting like they hated me or thought I was a know-it-all, because I actually enjoyed speaking up and answering questions in class. Which hurt my feelings when I was younger, but I eventually I developed an attitude that made people trying to make fun of or bully me back down.

Sapphi, I told you I'd read your story for you, as it intrigues me. >x>

[clua]

Plus, a lot of people can be sensitive with their work because the medium is so personal. Literally putting your story for anyone to read and evaluate? Heck, I can't do that. I don't like making people feel bad either and any time I put non-favorable post on a VN thread, I just feel bad. Like, I probably ruined that person's day just by making that post. Dunno if I'm just overthinking it though.

I wish people gave me more feedback. D8

I'm terrified to give a lot of feedback on Lemmasoft. I restrain myself from giving any except to members I am positive can take it in the manner it's meant to be received. Too many people go to pieces over criticism, which is a shame. I'd love to give the detailed feedback and analysis I was trained to give in art school and at the studios I worked at, but too many would take it as a personal attack or hate me.

I'll tell you what ruins my day and makes me go to pieces.
FEELING IGNORED.

Seriously, even if you hate it, just tell me, PLEASE. I know I haven't posted much content on the main part of the board yet so this is more of a general rant, not a "Hey, you guys failed me", but it takes courage for me to post on this board. Like my heart starts beating faster and everything. I'm excited to show my work and I want to know what people think. The worst thing is coming back and finding no comments. I'd rather have a comment that kicked me to the ground and made me cry than no comment at all, if the points were valid. Because in the end, comments like that will keep me coming back and trying to improve. NO COMMENTS will make me say "Screw this, nobody wants me here and I'm probably just annoying everyone with every keystroke, I'm leaving."

If I sound a little upset it's because I get ignored IRL all the time. Seriously. People will be asking questions like "Does anybody know X?" and I will SAY THE ANSWER LOUDLY, OUT LOUD, and nobody will hear me. When I was a kid, I was one of the smartest kids in my grade and usually had my hand up before all the other kids. I thrived on the teacher's attention - then they started IGNORING my raised hand and WAITING for other children to answer. It was sometimes minutes before another hand went up. An agonizing eternity for a little girl who just wanted to make the teacher happy. One teacher got snotty with me because I started waving my hand frantically - I honestly thought she didn't notice me - and said "Just because you do that doesn't mean I'll call on you!" So I admittedly have a bit of a complex, but seriously. Feeling like you're not even worth someone's time to comment is the worst feeling in the world.

I agree, I wish people that didn't felt my work was good, tell me about it.
Personally I'm a very depresive person. Each little or big crit I may recive makes me...sad haha But I guess
its worse if someone lies to me and says its good when is not.
A good artist once told me, that even troll critics are helpful.
Why? Because it makes you have backbone?(Is this the correct phrase. in spanish we would say "tener correa",
which means to endure critics or jokes)

[Anarchy]

@Rabbit: Absolutely agree. I think discussing issues with people who are critiquing you WITHOUT getting defensive is very important.

@Sapphi: I used to be kind of the same way too. When I first started college, I would talk a lot in class and get somewhat sad when the teacher kept not choosing me. I guess I was lucky though, because one day this professor talked to me after class and told me not to be sad if she didn't choose me to talk - it wasn't because she didn't want to hear my opinion, it was she wanted to let other kids have a chance to talk too, for participation points purposes. So I never really got bummed out by it after that.

@Clua: Awww~ I wish I was an art critic so I could give you good feedback on your art ;A;

[Sapphi]

@SAPPHI
I agree with the feeling. To me as an artist, that is the worst feeling in the world, to have someone look at my art and say NOTHING. But again, I am gun-shy on these forums because so many people SAY they want feedback, then fight you point for point once they get it. But I'll try and add you to my mental list of members it is safe to critique in the future.

Yippee!
I think I kind of said it before, but I am really glad you're on this forum... it's nice to hear from someone who has a degree in art and can bring the critique/discussion to a "college level" if you will. Also, if I ever do happen to slip into "Excuses Mode" just kindly remind me not to debate the critique.

~Snip~

Aw, I had a similar problem in class, which was people acting like they hated me or thought I was a know-it-all, because I actually enjoyed speaking up and answering questions in class. Which hurt my feelings when I was younger, but I eventually I developed an attitude that made people trying to make fun of or bully me back down.

Right, I used to love speaking up in school until the system beat me down.
(I didn't end up developing a beneficial attitude like you, unfortunately... in fact I'm still trying to crawl out of the psychological "All teachers are evil and cannot be trusted" abyss that I was hurled into. Since having art teachers, though, my outlook about people in the teaching profession has vastly improved.)

Sapphi, I told you I'd read your story for you, as it intrigues me. >x>

I know, and you probably have no idea how encouraging it is to me that you are even interested.
I just hope you don't hate it when I finally post the WIP :b

[Sapphi]

@SAPPHI
I agree with the feeling. To me as an artist, that is the worst feeling in the world, to have someone look at my art and say NOTHING. But again, I am gun-shy on these forums because so many people SAY they want feedback, then fight you point for point once they get it. But I'll try and add you to my mental list of members it is safe to critique in the future.

Yippee!
I think I kind of said it before, but I am really glad you're on this forum... it's nice to hear from someone who has a degree in art and can bring the critique/discussion to a "college level" if you will. Also, if I ever do happen to slip into "Excuses Mode" just kindly remind me not to debate the critique.

~Snip~

Aw, I had a similar problem in class, which was people acting like they hated me or thought I was a know-it-all, because I actually enjoyed speaking up and answering questions in class. Which hurt my feelings when I was younger, but I eventually I developed an attitude that made people trying to make fun of or bully me back down.

Right, I used to love speaking up in school until the system beat me down.
(I didn't end up developing a beneficial attitude like you, unfortunately... in fact I'm still trying to crawl out of the psychological "All teachers are evil and cannot be trusted" abyss that I was hurled into. Since having art teachers, though, my outlook about people in the teaching profession has vastly improved.)

Sapphi, I told you I'd read your story for you, as it intrigues me. >x>

I know, and you probably have no idea how encouraging it is to me that you are even interested.
I just hope you don't hate it when I finally post the WIP :b

@Sapphi: I used to be kind of the same way too. When I first started college, I would talk a lot in class and get somewhat sad when the teacher kept not choosing me. I guess I was lucky though, because one day this professor talked to me after class and told me not to be sad if she didn't choose me to talk - it wasn't because she didn't want to hear my opinion, it was she wanted to let other kids have a chance to talk too, for participation points purposes. So I never really got bummed out by it after that.

I was told a similar thing by a grade school teacher once, too... it did help to some extent, but I still felt pretty depressed. I mean, when someone tells a child "You're one of my best students" or "I wish all my students were like you", it doesn't make sense when they are consequently ignored. Children rarely understand the concept of downplaying themselves to help others shine, especially when they are constantly told to "be the best", etc. I completely understand their reasoning, but the hangup is still there. In high school, my art teacher told my parents I was the best art student she'd ever seen come through the program (not a lot of talent around here ), but to my face, she would just say "Oh, that's neat". Hearing about her comment later really surprised me.

I guess for once I'd like to be in the company of people I can look up to and compete with, people who will say "That's good, but here are some pointers" instead of "You're good enough, now let others have their turn in the spotlight." That's kinda why I'm so adamant about not being ignored.

[clua]

@Rabbit: Absolutely agree. I think discussing issues with people who are critiquing you WITHOUT getting defensive is very important.

@Sapphi: I used to be kind of the same way too. When I first started college, I would talk a lot in class and get somewhat sad when the teacher kept not choosing me. I guess I was lucky though, because one day this professor talked to me after class and told me not to be sad if she didn't choose me to talk - it wasn't because she didn't want to hear my opinion, it was she wanted to let other kids have a chance to talk too, for participation points purposes. So I never really got bummed out by it after that.

@Clua: Awww~ I wish I was an art critic so I could give you good feedback on your art ;A;

haha but you totally can kick my writting orz

[Hijiri]

I'm going to be honest right now with myself and say something I want to say to someone, but can't due to the outright backlash against me that would happen if I even so much as look at that person wrong. Hiowever, this also goes for a few other people.

Said person tends to make stuff that I feel is simply pandering. The quality of said person's works range from above average to extremely mediocre, though has come up with some decent plotlines. What really gets me is the fact that the person tends to degrade these "stories" by turning them into dating sims that only focus on getting with the LI, this is something I hate with a passion, even in regular JVN's who also have a habit of ruining good plot devices. However, because of this, that person has gained a lot of fans because of this, which simply baffles me, and it makes me question as to whether or not I should even bother to finish any of my own projects if all everyone wants to do is chase after people romanticly. If I wish to play a dating sim, I'll play one, or, hell, even go out and date a real person instead of trying to woo a 2D person. But if I want to read a good story with nice images and music, I want to read a VN. I understand that love plotlines are difficult to keep out, and I'll admit to using them, but I feel that one should just leave dating sims to s'life stories instead of trying to come up with an idea that you're just going to bog down or flat out ignore it in favor of letting the player date everything with a pulse.

[Camille]

LWR, can I just say that I pretty much thoroughly read all of your posts--even the really long ones? Your comments about your experiences and your detailed explanations are such a breath of fresh air. Even if you're discussing something not directly relevant to me, I still enjoy reading. So I hope I'm on that list, too, though I've already seen you giving art critique to my better half, so that alone makes me pretty happy.

I wish I knew enough about art to give more detailed critique. >_< Aside from some nitpicks about anatomy, I really can only say that I like art or I don't like it and it's always my own personal tastes coming into play. I am picky about art, but according to my own standards. Sometimes I really hate the art style of a popular artist and love an art style that a lot of people think is awkward or too old-fashioned, so I'm not much help there. People have PMed me asking me for advice about writing and about programming before, though, and I try my best to help in a detailed way. ;A; I fear my NaNoRenO comments have been way too tl;dr...

-------

To keep in with this topic, I'll rant a little... Recently I was informed that a group that I really look up to has been keeping tabs on the Cyanide Tea projects, especially BCM. The idea of these specific people looking at and possibly evaluating my writing and my work paralyzed me with nervousness for the past week or so. I couldn't get anything done. I'm normally pretty pessimistic and critical of my work (like LWR said, though, in order to improve... I am not the type who is so down on myself that I think everything I do sucks) but I've been extra worried that I've made mistakes and am wasting a golden opportunity if BCM doesn't reach their standards. I finally decided today to stop doing that and just keep doing things as I've been doing (because if they're interested, it means I've been doing something right.... right?) but really, nothing freaks me out as much as expectations from others. It's easier to be the dark horse and surprise people~ .____. The idea of someone telling me "I was expecting better than this!" really scares me.

On another note, the last two weeks, almost everyone in my life has decided to pile on the "Why aren't you dating??" comments and two of my classes are even focusing on "romantic relationships and marriage" in lecture this week, so I've been feeling really depressed. Not because I'm not dating, but because... Well, I feel like since I'm asexual, I'll probably never be able to find someone who will be okay with that. I'm actually okay with being alone (romantically) and not dating, but I'm getting very tired of people pressuring me to find a boyfriend or whatever when I'm not interested at all. Sigh. I wonder if I could just cohabitate with someone without it turning into some weird pseudo-romantic relationship...

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I'm not on that list? D8 Because it makes me a sad bunny when I ask for constructive criticism/feedback and don't get it.

Really, if I didn't want it, I wouldn't ask for it. 8|

So I hope I'm on that list, too, though I've already seen you giving art critique to my better half, so that alone makes me pretty happy.

Awww, you all just had to go and make my "list" a thing! It is informal, and I will neither deny nor admit the members on it. But please keep in mind, I don't critique everything someone does, even if that member is on my list, only when the mood strikes me and I feel I have something significant to contribute. There just aren't enough hours in the day! So if I've never critiqued you, don't take it personally!

A good artist once told me, that even troll critics are helpful.
Why? Because it makes you have backbone?(Is this the correct phrase. in spanish we would say "tener correa",
which means to endure critics or jokes)

Smart artist. Thick skin is a necessity for success. Anyone who has attended an art school has faced the nerve racking experience of portfolio review. Before you can graduate a panel of industry professional artists sit you down in a room and review and grill you on your art, most of them never once smiling as they ask questions like, "Have you drawn a lot of portraits before?" "Why did you choose that color palette?" "Why do you think someone would want to see an image like that?" "Do you think you worked hard on this?"

Some people would actually leave the room sobbing. If I hadn't had experience being the military and having drill instructors call me a 'maggot' while spitting on me, I don't know if I could have stood there calmly during my review and spoken in confident tones! The thing is, the people that PASSED review received longer pages of criticisms and feedback than those that didn't. Because the professional artists only gave detailed feedback where they felt it would not be wasted - i.e. the art students they felt had the potential to "make it", while they were cutting their losses with the ones they felt beyond help.

I am picky about art, but according to my own standards. Sometimes I really hate the art style of a popular artist and love an art style that a lot of people think is awkward or too old-fashioned, so I'm not much help there.

I'm the same way. There are a lot of popular, successful, or famous artists whose work I think is crap, and a lot of very old art or someone's doodles that I love. The difference I guess is that I can articulate and be specific as to why!

[Sapphi]

I'm going to be honest right now with myself and say something I want to say to someone, but can't due to the outright backlash against me that would happen if I even so much as look at that person wrong. Hiowever, this also goes for a few other people.

Said person tends to make stuff that I feel is simply pandering. The quality of said person's works range from above average to extremely mediocre, though has come up with some decent plotlines. What really gets me is the fact that the person tends to degrade these "stories" by turning them into dating sims that only focus on getting with the LI, this is something I hate with a passion, even in regular JVN's who also have a habit of ruining good plot devices. However, because of this, that person has gained a lot of fans because of this, which simply baffles me, and it makes me question as to whether or not I should even bother to finish any of my own projects if all everyone wants to do is chase after people romanticly.

In this instance, I doubt that it would help to tell this person - since your personal feelings on the subject are probably not going to dissuade them from stopping what they are doing, especially if they have fans. If I went and commented on every H-VN and said "I really hate porn, this story sucks, why do you have fans, please stop," that would not be an example of constructive criticism, but of trying to make everyone comply with my personal tastes.

Now, if the transitions are awful and the excuses for the plot are flimsy, that's something you can critique. But if you Absolutely Do Not Like Carrots, it's not like you can tell someone making carrot cake that the cake would be better without the carrots, since the point of carrot cake is, well... carrots.

(Just so you know, I pretty much share your sentiments about stories being corrupted by dating elements. I don't think you should give up your own projects at all. I also really love carrots, and carrot cake. )

[Mink]

^^LWR, you have unleashed a can of worms. 8C

~Snip~

I'm not sure if I count as asexual or not: I'm consider myself pansexual, but at the same time, it's like...I'm only attracted to the top half. The top half is awesome, the bottom half I could do without. It's not that I never, ever want to date anyone, or I don't find people physically attractive, but I don't really have any interest in, well, sex. I just don't. Which most of the time I hate telling people, because it tends to get me, "Well, you just haven't found the right person" or "HOW CAN YOU NOT WANT TO?" *Sigh*

Oh, well. At least my dog loves me for who I am. /pathetic

Camille, if you gave me a TL;DR post on my NaNo topic, I'd be honored. >x>

Sapphi, I told you I'd read your story for you, as it intrigues me. >x>

I know, and you probably have no idea how encouraging it is to me that you are even interested.
I just hope you don't hate it when I finally post the WIP :b

Hey, don't sell yourself short. If you don't believe in you, how will others believe in you? Wait, does that even make sense?

[Anima]

You know, I learned a very different kind of critique at my teaching seminar. We had to include what was good as well, even further creating a sandwich structure out of good and bad points. I would go even further, only seeing the bad points of your work can be dangerous for your mental health. This distortion of perception is one of the core aspects of depression. That's why I would consider the ability to see the positive aspects of your work (and your self) as an important and indispensable skill, for the creation of great art as well as for your regular life.
Being able to see your strengths doesn't mean that you will become an arrogant dimwit who thinks that he's the pinnacle of art, but it just might give you the confidence to face negative critique head on. Instead of letting your insecurity start digging trenches.
Some people already have critically acclaimed projects or fancy degrees and an impressive list of former jobs. But others can only rely on their own self confidence and the nice things others have to say about their work. Actually, a bad project that gets completed might be worth more then an unfinished great project. With that in mind, self confidence becomes an important skill that has to be honed as much or even more as technical skills.
Besides there is something you can snatch from psychology. The flow model, where the best workflow results in alternating between an analytic and a synthetic mindset. The gist is pretty much that one should switch from taking things apart to putting things together at regular intervals. That also works for looking for good and bad parts of your work. For example, you take exactly five minutes to write down what you consider bad in a workpiece, afterwards you have to list the same number of things that you like about it.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

snip

Good point. Being able to recognize what you are doing well is important too.

You know, I learned a very different kind of critique at my teaching seminar. We had to include what was good as well, even further creating a sandwich structure out of good and bad points.

I've heard this a lot, but the fact is, in professional settings like a studio or at an art school where you may have dozens of pieces to work through in a critique, there just isn't time to cushion your hits. Everyone is meant to understand that if it wasn't mentioned as needing fixing, then it was good.