Has OELVN development peaked?

[Dim Sum]

NVList uses Lua for scripting, ChoiceScript looks -very- similar to VNDS in terms of complexity and functionality.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that I messed up the technical analogy since I don't know the technical terms.

RenPy also has a version that is Lua based. I didn't really mean the specific language but the relation of the language to the other language. Lua being stereotyped as smaller and quicker and more portable than Python for example. Novelty having options that may be more user friendly to a non-programmer than RenPy.

Again, I may be overstepping my knowledge. When I read that, I thought I could easily Google VNDS and I considered ChoiceScript to be the bare essentials so I thought it was a safe comparison but apparently I can't find VNDS anywhere so if it's similar then I apologize for the wrong assumption.

[Dim Sum]

Oh, okay, you're talking about changes in the OELVN community. That's kind of a huge difference with what your post title suggests, which is about OELVN development, no?

Not really. The OELVN community IS the OELVN producers.

If you look at my original post it was much straight forward. There's a section for each part of the community. The types of products the producers/game devs are releasing. The change in community leading to harder to find games. The tutorials. It really didn't get out of hand until I tried to tackle the replies.

I think one unique thing about the top 5 games for the OELVN community (as opposed to the VN community) is that the top games weren't those.

Moonlight Walks was a dating ghost sim

O3 was a new unique art twist, not so unique that it was the first to look that way but more "slice of life" mid-20s feel

I think there was another game that was purely black and white.

The next evolution was the first quality kinetic novel I think.

Finally...there was a Sci-fi themed game that played like you were on acid.

None of these are directly chronological but when the OELVN first started, it quickly separated from the direction of just "lower quality" VNs by having some of the crazier looking VNs out there and a bunch of posters that simply accepted these VNs as their own. Not within the standards of VNs.

It led to a lot of unique games. Cute Knight was finally an Eng Princess Maker. Heileen had quests. Science Girls was a SNES SRPG like Tenchi Muyo. Fatal Hearts was the Vampire mini-game.

...basically as the games gets more polished and slightly less unique, the group was still pretty unique.

It was almost a cheat. If I wanted to find out some of the most unique VNs out there. You lurked in LemmaSoft and not only will you read about it but posters weren't passive supporters. They weren't Let's PLAYers. They were talking about stuff that I normally wouldn't even pay attention to.

...and they were doing this for games that have barely any interest in being downloaded.

It wasn't the category. It was just the organic culture of the time. Way different from today.

I'm not saying it can or should be switched back but there was a piece of time where that permeated the OELVN culture everywhere be it from the products to the culture to the analysis. The analysis often being the self-advertisement for those games.

I'm also not saying the current trend is bad or should be abandoned. Ehh...nevermind. I'm over-reaching again.

[PyTom]

I guess in its initial stages, people in this forum bonded together simply over the sheer fact they were creating games with a new engine, but as you can see, more growth has also led to more variety, and now players new to the OELVN scene actually have a choice about what kind of game they want to play as opposed to playing a certain type of game because it was one of the only few available.

That's a little wrong. The forum existed for over a year before Ren'Py existed, and nearly two years before there was a Ren'Py game. The original community formed over what I call "old-fashioned bishoujo games" - games in which a boy pursues one or more girls. (Realize that the translated Japanese games at the time had titles like "Let's Meow Meow", "Do you Like Horny Bunnies?" - as well as better ones like "Kana - Little Sister" and Crescendo.)

So we started off with a community where everyone was making and playing the same kind of game - and there were only a few games to play - so everyone played every game.

We've had several new waves of people since then. I'd argue there's been three big ones - the wave of people inspired by Fate, the wave of people inspired by Re:Alistair, and the wave of people inspired by Katawa Shoujo, which is just starting (and to some extent, is based more outside the forum).

The result - especially given the massive increase in game-making - is that we talk about the stuff that's common to everyone. It's tough for someone who's interested in making feminist literature to discuss content with someone who wants to make a harem comedy. We have a body-types in BL games thread that I stay the heck away from (#7 FTW). So it's just kind of hard to have the sort of community we once did.

I'm not sure I understand the "Ren" in Ren'Py aspect of the comments. Ren'Py is a tool - a paintbrush - and insofar as it influences the types of visual novels you make with it, that's a bug.

[jack_norton]

I think they mean that Ren'Py is so easy and powerful to use, that lots of people who never thought to make a VN decided to try (and maybe they succeeded).
Also as Papillon said, don't think the whole OELVN community is represented by 5-10-100 forum posts or news or reviews. I'm pretty sure a good horror VN (but NOT with manga art, since is still a big downside for the mainstream review sites) would be a success.

[Obscura]

I guess in its initial stages, people in this forum bonded together simply over the sheer fact they were creating games with a new engine, but as you can see, more growth has also led to more variety, and now players new to the OELVN scene actually have a choice about what kind of game they want to play as opposed to playing a certain type of game because it was one of the only few available.

That's a little wrong. The forum existed for over a year before Ren'Py existed, and nearly two years before there was a Ren'Py game. The original community formed over what I call "old-fashioned bishoujo games" - games in which a boy pursues one or more girls. (Realize that the translated Japanese games at the time had titles like "Let's Meow Meow", "Do you Like Horny Bunnies?" - as well as better ones like "Kana - Little Sister" and Crescendo.)

Ah, thanks for the correction. That's interesting, knowing the history of the community here.

[PyTom]

That's interesting, knowing the history of the community here.

I'm probably going to make a bigger deal about this in the fall, as we come up to the 10 year anniversary. The death clock might get a new purpose as we approach the 10 year anniversary.

[Showsni]

I'm not sure I quite follow you, but are you saying that in the past OELVNs, although of a lesser quality and sometimes unfinished, were more diverse and interesting? And that the current crop strives too hard to be polished and similar to the most popular VNs?

Or are you saying that whilst many different games still exist, it's just harder to find out about and find discussion on the quirkier titles?

[gekiganwing]

If the question is "where do we go from here?" then there are plenty of potential answers. Here are some concepts which haven't been explored much *yet* with western visual novels:

* Interactive comics.
* Hybrids of VN and interactive fiction. (It's been ten years since The PK Girl...)
* Influence from point-and-click games.
* A real-time ticking clock that doesn't stop. (The player has only 3 hours to complete a mission, or raise stats...)
* Meaningful achievements in complex games. (Though I think Analogue and Koenchu already have this...)
* Twitter is used for a purpose.
* The player can not progress without using a website created just for the game.
* A mini-game collection.
* (Optional) hidden object gameplay.
* Impossible to replay the game. (At least one experimental freeware game will *not* allow people to experience alternate endings... at least, on the same computer.)
* Emphasis on puzzle solving.
* Emphasis on music.
* A series of episodic games released on-schedule.
* Images of real people in real environments.
* Vintage sprite graphics.
* Plot-relevant graphic style changes.
* No character sprites at all.

Japanese VN is originated as an adult material and developed on the edge of censorship. But in English, Adult materials are totally abolished.

That is not true. First, I can name from memory quite a few visual novels of Japanese origin which did not initially have adult content, and which were not later adapted into adult VNs. Without looking on the VNDB, here's thirteen examples I thought of within a few minutes: the entire Tokimeki Memorial franchise, all canonical Galaxy Angel games, every Sakura Wars game, the two-part Mitsumete Knight series, all of The Idolmaster, 999 and its sequel, Kimikiss, Amagami, For Symphony, Etude Prologue, the entirety of Higurashi and Umineko, Clannad, and True Tears.

Also, it does not take much effort to find adult VNs in English, whether they are translated by fans or professionals. If you focus only on adult games translated by companies, you can find a number of examples which remove mosaic censorship, and which do not constantly assert that the characters are eighteen or older. (To be more specific, Mangagamer and G-Collections' websites have blanket disclaimers stating that every character is an adult... but I don't remember any examples of their VNs in which the the in-game text tried to assure the reader of this.) Unfortunately, there have been quite a few examples in which an adult game was released in English with gratuitous censorship... but the fan community will take notice, and sometimes even create censorship-removal patches.

Sorry for veering off topic.

[yukipon]

That is not true. First, I can name from memory quite a few visual novels of Japanese origin which did not initially have adult content, and which were not later adapted into adult VNs. Without looking on the VNDB, here's thirteen examples I thought of within a few minutes: the entire Tokimeki Memorial franchise, all canonical Galaxy Angel games, every Sakura Wars game, the two-part Mitsumete Knight series, all of The Idolmaster, 999 and its sequel, Kimikiss, Amagami, For Symphony, Etude Prologue, the entirety of Higurashi and Umineko, Clannad, and True Tears.

Most, if not all, of those games are from the 2000's with the exception of the Tokimeki Series and Sakura Wars (also, Mitsumete Knight). Nyaatrap is right in that most JVN's have started off with adult content initially as a genre. The trend to start adding in all ages content started only recently, probably in the last 5-7 years. Before then, most VN's all had adult content, even the really obscure ones; it's even a subgenre, aka Nukige. -_-

BTW, Japanese VN has already peaked. Its future is in despair heh

Totally. xD

[Auro-Cyanide]

To suggest that the VN community has peaked would be to imply that the creators have peaked and that is quite literally impossible.

We are human, evolving is what we do, both as individuals and as a community.

As individuals we are constantly learning and assimilating information. Practice and study allows us to improve. The need to be better, to do more, is an instinct that is held to many of us. We will never be the same as we were yesterday, and while is debateable whether that can be an improvement or not, one thing for sure is that we simply will know more.

As a community, we do what communities do, we grow. Even when we aren't directly sharing information, the process of memes from just interacting insures a cultural evolution. We steal and share and inspire and argue and debate and think. On a daily basis we are processing new information from others and adding it to our communal knowledge. For example, I 'stole' Voight's idea for sprite tinting and developed it into something I knew how to use. I'm sure many of us borrow ideas from others all the time and that is what allows us to grow. This wouldn't work if we all worked in isolation and growth would be significantly stunted.

I can not talk about the past of this forum since I wasn't here. All I know is that it has changed. If nothing else there are way more people here. And as I mentioned, humans are at their best in group environments. You only have to look at something like Virtual Reality Games and see what we are capable of as a group vs being alone. I think there is a much deeper pool of knowledge, resources and talent than ever before. There is more variety and interests because that is what individuals bring to the table. This also means more conflict and we have gotten to the point where we are actually forming cliques (which I find all types of amusing). It's just what happens when there are more people around and trying to avoid it is impossible.

As for the question as to what gets discussed... I think one thing is people actually get blindsided by quality and kind of don't look too much deeper than that. Which is a shame, thinking about things further is always more interesting. Appealing graphics are nice and all, but what are the graphics doing. Their quality is actually covering the function, which is technically what good graphics (and other forms of communication) do. "Good design is invisible' and all that. But it does mean comment on the function tends to be more limited unless people are more in the know on the technical side of things. In games with more minimal designs, the message is far easier to get to and the main thing of discussion. The other thing is that there are people who just enjoy playing VNs and aren't looking to analyse them. I know I tend to tear apart most media so I can try and understand it, but a lot of people are just into the entertainment. Lack of comment on their part doesn't always indicate that the game itself was lacking, if you know what I mean.

[Taleweaver]

I think there was another game that was purely black and white.

Thanks for remembering Metropolitan Blues

OT: I don't think OELVN development has peaked. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly haven't reached the peak of my abilities yet. I can still improve myself, and thus, I can still improve the quality of VNs I make. And I think I'm not alone here, so if people continue to make VNs (and I'm certain they will), they will make better VNs.

Really, I think that's all there is to say about it. We haven't seen HALF of what our genre could possibly bring.

[mugenjohncel]

Has OELVN development peaked?
Yes... the answer is Yes and it's currently stuck there with nowhere to go...

Well... you can actually go beyond just a bit but that will mean pushing the boundaries such as godly drawings, good music, twilight level story or perhaps gimmicks like 3D BG's or characters or other exotic stuff beyond my comprehension... which is probably out of reach of most OELVN creators (a.k.a. Hobbyist who are not out there for money but the glory and attention-whoring purposes )

Now this is where it gets really... hot...

I think Katawa Shoujo was bad for OELVN's

Let's not deny the fact that KS while not really that good compared to other real VN's still beats every single "free" OELVN (including mine) hands down in terms of execution, graphics, music... well maybe not so about the story but still interesting enough to hook someone for quite a bit of time due to it's length coupled with the fact that they advertised it everywhere (aka spam it everywhere) and being associated with 4chan gives it a massive boost... now everyone wants to be a KS dev or "inspired" to make a KS-like VN... which is easier said than done...

Let's not forget that KS took like several years to make. Made possible by a large number of talented people divided to work on a specific task under the command of some narcistic nazi (yes I said that)... please take note that you have to be a special kind of leader to actually control and maintain a group of diverse people who probably have their own vision and ideas to accomplish the task that made KS possible without much compensation other that bragging rights and ego-boost and that is NOT easy... and will most likely not gonna be repeated in a long time.

While I have the luxury of not being compared to KS devs since I predate them (I'm talking about FREE OELVN's here) the next generation will certainly have it hard since their work will definitely be judged against a benchmark title like KS and as I have stated earlier... it will be next to impossible to do another KS due to the huge logistical requirements... I mean... what are the chances you'll snag some skilled artist or composer or coder who will work for you for Doritos and a bit of attention?...

And even if you did... you don't have the marketing arm KS has (a.k.a. spam everywhere) or the prestige of being associated with 4chan... so unless you have the ways and means to spread the word about your work... expect to be buried...

And here comes some groups that will most likely say... "Oh yeah, we will be better than KS devs! Just you wait!" ... OK, no one is stopping you but I'm betting 50 Philippine Pesos you'll not finish that OELVN or if you finish it chances are you're going commercial... I mean you have the motivation to give it your best and nothing is better at motivating someone other than money...

So yes... as far as FREE OELVN's are concerned... it has reached the peak... but is this a bad thing?... Nope not really... all I need to do is change my mindset and ask myself... why do I do this?...

Depending on circumstances, I can either continue my OELVN activities and do what I love doing the most which is creating OELVN's regardless of how well it will be received while hoping for the best or I could just simply quit and save myself from the headaches and stress of not being able to become the next KS and go back to swimming in money while I sell Printer Inks by the bulk...

OK Guys... FLAME ON!!!... Excuse me while I hide...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[Argeus_the_Paladin]

I disagree completely. I think KS is a step in the *right* direction. It shows the English-speaking world that visual novels are not that weird Japanese thing with piss-poor wish-fulfilment writing that panders to shut-in perverted basement dwellers who cannot get laid. Though, in that regard it could have done better by not including hentai scenes at all. But the characterization and storytelling has gone a long way. While it will be a long time until the genre is taken as seriously as, say, Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Total War or The Elder Scrolls, it is a step in the right direction regardless.

I see that as a positive development, since that 'mainstreaming' of OELVN means that potential creators of the genre can begin to look elsewhere for help. The Paradox, Taleworlds and Total War Center folks, for instance. Proud history, Tolkien and G. R. R. Martin fans who have all the reasons to look down on the OELVN community, but who have a huge reserve of untapped manpower. They have talented programmers who have taken apart entire game engines and put them together again the way they want them to be,. They have a good pool of great artists for 3D and 2D art alike. They have armies of great writers and researchers who can come up with dozens of sources for even the most remote of historical characters and events and put them together into great stories. And boy, have they completed awesome projects. All completed, despite all differences and available completely for free.

IMO, the OELVN community needs people like them - serious programmers and modders. And what better way to do so than to prove, step by step, that VN as a genre is not just about wish-fulfilment of losers who can't get any?

[nyaatrap]

I wonder why no one mentions about Juniper's knot by Dischan.
It's a professional quality VN, but has a bit different atmosphere than Japanese ones.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Oooo, Mugen, such a defeatist attitude!

While I agree KS is ever likely to happen again, that isn't a bad thing. 5 years on one game, dear lord, who would want to do that? KS went in A direction, whether it was backwards or forwards is hard to say. Probably more sideways. If nothing else it brings a new wave of people and while most won't stay long there is always one or two that will stick around. That is how all of us get here eventually. I wasn't around a couple years ago. Many people weren't here a couple years ago. To suggest the community has stopped growing is to suggest our contributions mean nothing. I think we had one of the most successful Nanoreno years ever and those games got attention from outside of the forum. If that isn't a sign of change, I don't know what is. So many future creators are simply not here yet and there are a lot of us who haven't even begun to stretch our limbs and test out exactly what we can do. I'll be damned if I have already given all I have to give. I'm still young *shakes fist*

@Nyaatrap, might be because it's a KN maybe? People outside the forums seem to be really attracted to choices.