Has OELVN development peaked?

[AxemRed]

@Nyaatrap, might be because it's a KN maybe? People outside the forums seem to be really attracted to choices.

Not really, some of the most popular translated VNs are ones that lack choices. I think Juniper's Knot is too short and simplistic to really leave an impact.

[nyaatrap]

It's funny that the word Kinetic Novel was born in Japan but it only survives in abroad.
In Japan, it just means the game planetarian and some followers.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Nyaatrap, might be because it's a KN maybe? People outside the forums seem to be really attracted to choices.

Not really, some of the most popular translated VNs are ones that lack choices. I think Juniper's Knot is too short and simplistic to really leave an impact.

I'm not sure it was length. I've been brought to tears with short stories. It was more... there was a lack of follow through on the message of the story. That type of story would have worked better revolving around a single idea with a strong meaning. Instead, it was fairly slice of life... with demons. But, Nanoreno. That's what it's there for

[nyaatrap]

Oh remember the thread "Innovation vs Quality vs Fun: Which is more important".
Juniper's knot lacks Fun. It's something like watching an art exhibition. Art exhibitions only attract a few audience.
KS is instead, lacks Innovation.

[ThisIsNoName]

I'm a bit new to the forum, so I hope you don't mind if I chime in.

I think the main reason why KS did as well as it did is because it innovated just enough in the right area. How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives? The fact that every girl had their own personality, and was treated like an actual person was the thing that really drew me to KS, and then to OELVNs in general. I think it also came at just the right time, when people were looking for something positive in a slew of negativity. It's hard to find any TV show, movie, or even comic book made for adults that isn't "Dark and Edgy", while Katawa Shoujo was all about learning about people and exploring what makes us different.

But do I think we've reached the peak? Hell no! Have we reached a plateau? Maybe. I think part of what's holding us back is the idea that there is only one peak, instead of many mountains. Everyone is trying to climb this one mountain, after seeing someone get to the top, that we ignore the fact that there are other, much taller mountains right next to it.

Overall, I have to say I'm very hopeful for this community. I can't wait to see what other VNs will come out soon. (There are definitely a few WIPs I'm very interested in.)

[AxemRed]

How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives?

Practically no-one.

[Anna]

...Peak? What peak? Oh, you mean the one I'll never reach because the mountain seems to be growing each time I take a step ;p?

Anyway, there is so much to try out that I've only just started exploring the ways to make visual novels more appealing, and I think many others are still experimenting too. For example, Cinders has shown some nice visual experiments and there is also a project called Locked-In which experiments a lot with visuals and animation.

Even if you don't focus on art, there is a lot to experiment with music, sounds and the story too. Especially the latter.

Right now, creating VNs is incredibly fun because we can still grow and learn so much. I feel like we're at the start of something cool, rather than at the end of it.

[Sapphi]

How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives?

Practically no-one.

Really?

So many future creators are simply not here yet and there are a lot of us who haven't even begun to stretch our limbs and test out exactly what we can do. I'll be damned if I have already given all I have to give. I'm still young *shakes fist*

Haha, this is how I feel. I can't post any of my WIPs because everyone got sick of wading through WIP threads with no tangible content yet. I can't rush progress or they will turn out as "just another rushed game". So I plod along... meanwhile I have to hear people analyzing the state of the community in these depressing tones! I feel like the movement will die before I ever have a chance to contribute! Ahhh!

[Anna]

Haha, this is how I feel. I can't post any of my WIPs because everyone got sick of wading through WIP threads with no tangible content yet. I can't rush progress or they will turn out as "just another rushed game". So I plod along... meanwhile I have to hear people analyzing the state of the community in these depressing tones! I feel like the movement will die before I ever have a chance to contribute! Ahhh!

When you think you have something decent enough to show (like a few sprites, or placeholders will even do for some screenshots), just post your WIP :0. It's not like waiting will decrease the projects (they will increase) and the people bothered by it don't go into WIP anyway.

Perhaps set yourself a deadline to create the WIP topic? It usually helps.

[papillon]

I wonder why no one mentions about Juniper's knot by Dischan.
It's a professional quality VN, but has a bit different atmosphere than Japanese ones.

To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't really spread beyond the boundaries of traditional VN fans. So while it represents good quality, it hasn't caused changes in the way something like KS or Digital, etc, have.

I think the main reason why KS did as well as it did is because it innovated just enough in the right area. How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives? The fact that every girl had their own personality, and was treated like an actual person was the thing that really drew me to KS, and then to OELVNs in general.

Girls having strong personalities is common in better-quality japanese eroges. The trouble is that, from what I hear, it's not what the average customer expects in porn, and for the eroge-translating companies the Mindless Sex Fests sell a lot better than the games with plot and personality, even though it's almost entirely the games with plot and personality that get talked about by the hardcore group of fans that congregate on the company forums.

I'd be curious to know if, say, sales of Yume Miru Kusuri perked up after the release of Katawa Shoujo, now that more people became aware that the genre can do things other than mindless wall-to-wall sex.

[Obscura]

Hmm....if the actual issue is that oelvns have nowhere to go but down, how do you go "down" when the starting point is pretty much "hobbyists and indie creators who are just hitting their stride?" Having seen some of the games from the commercial developers here, I can tell you that there seems to be marked improvement with each passing game--I honestly think they're just getting started in terms of what they can do. And from the hobbyists...forgive me, but I think the bulk of them right now are still learning the program and putting out "practice pieces" as they work towards making, eventually, a breakthrough game. There's that quote..."10,000 hours before you become an expert?"

So I'm still EXTREMELY confused by the assertion that development has peaked. So I'm scratching my head here, and I'm wondering if one would say this because the kind of games they like are starting to disappear in a sea of other types of games? I can definitely see a concern if you enjoy games that are POV heterosexual male done in traditional anime style, especially if you're looking for romance/dating/eroge/moe games...the classic BxG. (If I understand the usage of the word "moe" correctly...it's a word I only learned like, last week. ) Given how many other types of games are WIPs right now, it's understandable one would start thinking that thinking 'oh no, BxGs are dying out' and therefore (incorrectly) extrapolate that VNs are going downhill. Though what's really happening is that it's about their proportion to other types of games being released, at least on the Lemmasoft forums.

There will always be BxG because there will always be people passionate enough about that type of story. Enough so that they'll make things like Katawa Shoujo or more recently, Homeward? These things looked like incredible labors of love.

And then the idea that Katawa Shoujo somehow is mind-warping potential BXG creators somehow...this argument seems extremely shaky to me. IMHO all it does is bring in more people, who would never have entered the VN genre anyways. Whether they stay or go isn't going to affect the other developers who are honing their craft.

For those of us outside the traditional BxG dating genre, I venture to guess the view is the opposite (and please correct me if I'm wrong.) It is probably among those who are NOT making BxG's that believe that OELVN's are just taking off. Many of us are making games because the type of game we want doesn't exist. I don't understand how a genre could have plateaued if there was zero of that genre to begin with. There are so many untapped areas for VNs to explore.

You know, if you say something has hit a peak, you actually have to SAY what the peak constitutes. What exactly is this great game or group of games that nobody in the future and in all of history will ever be able to reach? Mugen, you sound like you're saying it's Katawa, but then again, it's not really Katawa because it's got so many problems? I'm utterly confused.

[Obscura]

*and for the record, I am not a fan of Katawa Shoujo. Editing, people, editing!!!

[kaleidofish]

For those of us outside the traditional BxG dating genre, I venture to guess the view is the opposite (and please correct me if I'm wrong.) It is probably among those who are NOT making BxG's that believe that OELVN's are just taking off. Many of us are making games because the type of game we want doesn't exist. I don't understand how a genre could have plateaued if there was zero of that genre to begin with. There are so many untapped areas for VNs to explore.

Agreed. There are plenty of untold stories in the visual novel scene. No one can tell our stories the way that we can. Every creator is different. Even if we all decided to make BxG stories with the same basic idea, they'd still all be different, because of our execution. For that reason, development hasn't peaked. No way. I'm all about making progress in my art (writing), so there's no way I, myself, have peaked. I'm at the beginning of my journey.

[Sapphi]

And then the idea that Katawa Shoujo somehow is mind-warping potential BXG creators somehow...this argument seems extremely shaky to me. IMHO all it does is bring in more people, who would never have entered the VN genre anyways. Whether they stay or go isn't going to affect the other developers who are honing their craft.

I'm glad Katawa Shoujo is inspiring more people to join the scene, but I find the projects inspired by it to be a little amusing, mostly because I have seen stuff like forums being set up before the project is even out of the recruiting phase. It does not seem to be about the simple enjoyment of creation and distribution anymore. I'm not an old-school LSF member (although I wish I had been) but the BxG spirit from the old days and the revived interest in BxG these days seem like two different beasts. The latter is, by comparison, much more interested in fame. Of course, this is only the impression I get and I could be wrong.

For those of us outside the traditional BxG dating genre, I venture to guess the view is the opposite (and please correct me if I'm wrong.) It is probably among those who are NOT making BxG's that believe that OELVN's are just taking off. Many of us are making games because the type of game we want doesn't exist. I don't understand how a genre could have plateaued if there was zero of that genre to begin with. There are so many untapped areas for VNs to explore.

I think I agree with you, since most of my ideas aren't BxG (or any kind of this x that, for that matter).

I observe, though, that BxG is a field that has been mined far more than other genres of visual novels, and it's problematic for BxG creators because their bar is set very high. However, there are a vast amount of stories that can be written with a BxG premise that have not been explored yet. Katawa Shoujo is maybe a peak of the OEL doujin BxG school story mountain. That is a very specific mountain. Like ThisIsNoName said, there are other mountains. Additionally, just because someone got to the top first and stuck their flag in doesn't mean you can't also do it if it's your dream!

[Guerin78]

I'm glad Katawa Shoujo is inspiring more people to join the scene, but I find the projects inspired by it to be a little amusing, mostly because I have seen stuff like forums being set up before the project is even out of the recruiting phase. It does not seem to be about the simple enjoyment of creation and distribution anymore. I'm not an old-school LSF member (although I wish I had been) but the BxG spirit from the old days and the revived interest in BxG these days seem like two different beasts. The latter is, by comparison, much more interested in fame. Of course, this is only the impression I get and I could be wrong.

To be fair, this is something they've stolen from KS itself--the early development of which was basically "anyone interested, come to our forums and help out". The eventual team was just the people who stuck around long enough that they were actually creating the game instead of just brainstorming it.

This is quite different from the way most games here on LSF are created, but it's not necessarily bad. (The closest I can think of here would be games that emerge based on posts in the Ideas Dump threads.)