Has OELVN development peaked?

[Auro-Cyanide]

How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives?

Practically no-one.

Really?

I'm seconding the really? Cause I was reading something about it, like, yesterday.

So many future creators are simply not here yet and there are a lot of us who haven't even begun to stretch our limbs and test out exactly what we can do. I'll be damned if I have already given all I have to give. I'm still young *shakes fist*

Haha, this is how I feel. I can't post any of my WIPs because everyone got sick of wading through WIP threads with no tangible content yet. I can't rush progress or they will turn out as "just another rushed game". So I plod along... meanwhile I have to hear people analyzing the state of the community in these depressing tones! I feel like the movement will die before I ever have a chance to contribute! Ahhh!

I agree that you should set a deadline for yourself. As the EC guys say, no one has ever shipped a game that they were completely happy with. There is always a features they would have liked to add, or a bug to fix. Getting stuff out there is often the best way to move forward and motivate yourself to continue.

I'm glad Katawa Shoujo is inspiring more people to join the scene, but I find the projects inspired by it to be a little amusing, mostly because I have seen stuff like forums being set up before the project is even out of the recruiting phase. It does not seem to be about the simple enjoyment of creation and distribution anymore. I'm not an old-school LSF member (although I wish I had been) but the BxG spirit from the old days and the revived interest in BxG these days seem like two different beasts. The latter is, by comparison, much more interested in fame. Of course, this is only the impression I get and I could be wrong.

To be fair, this is something they've stolen from KS itself--the early development of which was basically "anyone interested, come to our forums and help out". The eventual team was just the people who stuck around long enough that they were actually creating the game instead of just brainstorming it.

This is quite different from the way most games here on LSF are created, but it's not necessarily bad. (The closest I can think of here would be games that emerge based on posts in the Ideas Dump threads.)

I agree with Sapphi on this one. If there is one thing you DON'T want to pick up from Four Leaf it's their working method. Again, 5 years. 5! A lot of that had to do with the way they were working. The people trying to chase KS's coat tails are (from what I have seen) too focused on the final product, on finishing and gaining fame. That isn't going to get you through the hard slog, especially with the size of games they are trying to do. There has to be an inherent love for the actual process and medium, an understanding of it. I don't think I have seen a single group that are trying to create something like KS produce so much as a sprite. The concept character art should have taken them 2 weeks top. Plus there have been problems wih group members leaving, which is always a problem, but when you think you have 12 people and 6 of them leave, can you still do what you were planning to do? Is everyone else willing to pick up the burden?

I also agree with Obscura. How can we really go down if we haven't really gone up? Maybe if we all leave maybe and the medium literally died? We need to give ourselves a chance here. Visual Novels in the Western world are still young and hey, most of us are hobbiests. We all only have so many hours in a day. With a bit of time, say a couple years, I think we will see great things, both free and commercial.

[MaiMai]

I'm still waiting for a steampunk AU 1920's Prohibition Era-ish visual novel complete with flappers, bootleg liquor, guns, and gangsters.

Make it happen and then maybe there might be a small peak.

[Sharm]

I have a different perspective to offer on this subject. I've been a part of a community that while I was there grew, became somewhat popular and then faded into complete obscurity and died. The whole community was based around one site where everyone uploaded their works to an easily searchable database. The people running that database switched the downloads to subscription only and it killed interest in any newcomers to the format. The old crew hung around for a while beyond that, but new technologies made the whole thing obsolete. Then the programmer for the software everyone used disappeared off the face of the internet. With no new blood, no one took his/her place. There was an attempt to revive the community in a few new places, but it just isn't happening and everyone has moved on.

With this community, I think as long as we have an engine with active programmers and a database to find new games VNs will live on. The format hasn't been explored to it's fullest and even the main style of use isn't stale yet. I expect the peak will look a lot like what it did for RPG's where we start seeing more games that go out of their way to break the norm not because they want that style, but because they must be DIFFERENT! We're not there yet. I don't think we're even close.

[Guerin78]

I agree with Sapphi on this one. If there is one thing you DON'T want to pick up from Four Leaf it's their working method. Again, 5 years. 5! A lot of that had to do with the way they were working. The people trying to chase KS's coat tails are (from what I have seen) too focused on the final product, on finishing and gaining fame. That isn't going to get you through the hard slog, especially with the size of games they are trying to do. There has to be an inherent love for the actual process and medium, an understanding of it. I don't think I have seen a single group that are trying to create something like KS produce so much as a sprite. The concept character art should have taken them 2 weeks top. Plus there have been problems wih group members leaving, which is always a problem, but when you think you have 12 people and 6 of them leave, can you still do what you were planning to do? Is everyone else willing to pick up the burden?

Oh, there are definitely things 4LS did wrong. I just disagree about creating forums early, or even using forums as a recruitment tool, being one of them.

• Designating people as "artist for character X" or "writer for path Y" leads to serious consistency issues, as well as ensuring that the moment someone hits an artistic block, or has to take a break for RL reasons, progress grinds to a halt. It also makes it difficult-to-impossible to add more people later, no matter how many volunteers you have, or how talented they are.
• Contrary to mugenjohncel's assertion above, the lack of strong personalities at the top of 4LS led to serious organization and communication problems. With no one "in charge", the team went through a lot of false starts and wasted work, and (again) ended up with serious consistency problems.

Now, both of those were done for a reason--to make sure that no one person was completely irreplaceable--but the end result was to slow production to a crawl.

I definitely don't think that OELVN development has peaked. Even if you think KS is the best OELVN currently out there, it would be like someone in the early 40s watching Citizen Kane or Casablanca and deciding that English-language film had peaked, or someone in the 19th century reading Dickens or Twain and deciding that the English-language novel had peaked. We've barely even scratched the surface of what the medium is capable of.

Now, it's possible that the idea of VN creation as a solitary endeavor has peaked, but that's a much different question from the original one.

[Sapphi]

• Designating people as "artist for character X" or "writer for path Y" leads to serious consistency issues, as well as ensuring that the moment someone hits an artistic block, or has to take a break for RL reasons, progress grinds to a halt. It also makes it difficult-to-impossible to add more people later, no matter how many volunteers you have, or how talented they are.
• Contrary to mugenjohncel's assertion above, the lack of strong personalities at the top of 4LS led to serious organization and communication problems. With no one "in charge", the team went through a lot of false starts and wasted work, and (again) ended up with serious consistency problems.

Now, both of those were done for a reason--to make sure that no one person was completely irreplaceable--but the end result was to slow production to a crawl.

A little off-topic, but a humble observer's suggestion to team-based visual novels that want a certain standard of artistic consistency:

One person creates all character concepts.
One person sketches all rough poses.
One person makes all final sketches.
One person inks all lineart.
People apply color.
People clean up color.
One person applies shading, highlights where necessary.

By distributing the effort, you could get Super Wonderful But Busy Artist's sketches quickly, have Pretty Decently Talented Artist ink them, then have Kind of Average But Helpful Artist(s) do the grunt color work before Super Wonderful comes back to finish them off. Obviously not suited for every artistic style, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me as a work plan when consistency is desired rather than flailing around hoping nobody drops off the face of the planet.

[Anna]

-snip-

By distributing the effort, you could get Super Wonderful But Busy Artist's sketches quickly, have Pretty Decently Talented Artist ink them, then have Kind of Average But Helpful Artist(s) do the grunt color work before Super Wonderful comes back to finish them off. Obviously not suited for every artistic style, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me as a work plan when consistency is desired rather than flailing around hoping nobody drops off the face of the planet.

Cool idea!

The only problem you need to keep in mind is that it's usually not fun to only lay down flat colours or clean up the colours because you have no say in the creative process at all and it's non-challenging mundane work, at least, that's how it is for me. I also have a musician whom I asked "do you need any help? I can split the tracks among--" "No way, I'm not sharing!".

I guess this works if people just want to contribute and see the project done though.

[nyaatrap]

VN companies actually have that Super Wonderful position; A graphic chief who determines colors and shadings.
Professional works are usually done by a few drawers, several painters, and one graphic chief. It's one of the most important position of the company, far more than drawers and writers. You can hire those freelance easily, but not the graphic chief.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think that is why there is a marked difference from paying those who work and people doing stuff for free. People who are being paid will doing the boring stuff because they are being paid to do it. Therefore you are able to split up work based on a conveyer belt style of manufacturing. If people are working for free, continuous boring work is not going to fly, especially if there is a lack of creative control. In that case your best bet is to have people in charge of disciplines, so at most an artist, a musician, a programmer, a writer and possibly a designer. It's even difficult to separate the art job into character and background artist because backgrounds fall into the boring category. People need to be engaged to do a good job, especially over long term.

@Guerin78, Ah, I see what you mean. Still a bit of cart before horse though. Even recruitment should happen after you have some idea of what you are asking for.

[Anna]

I think that is why there is a marked difference from paying those who work and people doing stuff for free. People who are being paid will doing the boring stuff because they are being paid to do it. Therefore you are able to split up work based on a conveyer belt style of manufacturing. If people are working for free, continuous boring work is not going to fly, especially if there is a lack of creative control. In that case your best bet is to have people in charge of disciplines, so at most an artist, a musician, a programmer, a writer and possibly a designer. It's even difficult to separate the art job into character and background artist because backgrounds fall into the boring category. People need to be engaged to do a good job, especially over long term.

Yes, exactly. And even then, the pay had better be decent, because I won't waste my time on something like that if the pay is minimal. I've turned down quite a few offers because they bored me too much and had low pay. Then again, I don't do this for a living... I guess that matters too :')?

[nyaatrap]

The problem is becoming money... that's natural. The main reason why Japanese VNs are high quality is simply they make money. Japan has a huge market to sell them. And this is the reason why I mentioned about laws and adult materials before. I think markets in westerns are limited at the beginning, am I right?

[Guerin78]

Ah, I see what you mean. Still a bit of cart before horse though. Even recruitment should happen after you have some idea of what you are asking for.

They do know what they're asking for. It's just something that most indie creators are used to doing solo, rather than in a team.

They're recruiting co-designers. Most of whom will double as artists, or writers, or musicians, or editors (there are very few studios even in AAA game development where "game designer" is a full-time position), but that's not their goal right now.

[Sapphi]

The only problem you need to keep in mind is that it's usually not fun to only lay down flat colours or clean up the colours because you have no say in the creative process at all and it's non-challenging mundane work, at least, that's how it is for me. I also have a musician whom I asked "do you need any help? I can split the tracks among--" "No way, I'm not sharing!".

I guess this works if people just want to contribute and see the project done though.

People who are being paid will doing the boring stuff because they are being paid to do it. Therefore you are able to split up work based on a conveyer belt style of manufacturing. If people are working for free, continuous boring work is not going to fly, especially if there is a lack of creative control.

Good points. I think you two are right that the grunt work would be hard to come by without some form of compensation. I would hazard a guess that it would work, though, for a project like Katawa Shoujo that had a promising premise and a lot of people eager to play it. In that case, I could see people jumping out of their seats to do the grunt work who otherwise wouldn't be involved at all*, since the completion of the project would essentially be their compensation. It would probably not work so well for a smaller, more niche project without other kinds of compensation.

*Sometimes, I feel, I really love the idea of a project and wish I could volunteer my skills toward its completion, but since they are looking for a more professional artist, I'd be useless to the effort and I don't bother volunteering.

[Dim Sum]

I'm not sure I quite follow you, but are you saying that in the past OELVNs, although of a lesser quality and sometimes unfinished, were more diverse and interesting? And that the current crop strives too hard to be polished and similar to the most popular VNs?

Or are you saying that whilst many different games still exist, it's just harder to find out about and find discussion on the quirkier titles?

It's not that cut and dry but yes.

I'm a chinese btw (who doesn't understand Japanese) so my first introduction of "Ren" = the character for Human.

Ai = Love.

Sometimes it just cheaply represents Dating but my impression of VNs represent more "Human Love".

Ren therefore is humanization of humans.

How one humanizes a ghost into having more human characteristics.

How one humanizes a trapped survivor into being more than they thought they were.

How one humanizes the incidents of a horror ritual and turning those people into a less pathetic zombies of their destinies than normal.

So every VN whether it represents dating or much more has that layer but it wasn't until Lemmasoft did someone see and analyzed it based on that which was only fueled because there were more works that could be analyzed that way whether they were intended to be that way or not.

That said, interesting was more defined by those posters. Not by me or some large group. They talk about aspects that we normally don't pay attention to and we rarely hear from a videogame of any genre ever. It was freaky but awesome. My only other experience of this prior to the forums was the posters at gamefaqs who collected the interpretation for Divi-Dead (otherwise I would have dismissed Divi-Dead at the first ending.)

To suggest that the VN community has peaked would be to imply that the creators have peaked and that is quite literally impossible.

We are human, evolving is what we do, both as individuals and as a community.

Yes, but stagnation does not equal death.

The products wouldn't die. It's whether the products would leave behind or bring behind certain aspects that it can be said to have peaked or not.

It is very possible to exist in a world where consumers no longer consume the diversity or would be headed to oblivion like modern global economics.

Life would continue in the form of products but if certain ideas, adaptation or mindset are no longer there: then it evolves into a colder product. That is what peaked means.

As individuals we are constantly learning and assimilating information. Practice and study allows us to improve. The need to be better, to do more, is an instinct that is held to many of us. We will never be the same as we were yesterday, and while is debateable whether that can be an improvement or not, one thing for sure is that we simply will know more.

That is an inevitability. However what is not inevitable is the question of direction of genre in general.

Take the maturity of English anime. There are more Death Note yes but there are less Shamo and Satsuma Gishiden.

They don't disappear but because of such direction, both the critics and the praisers see certain other things as dominant and therefore less analysis, demand and supply for such works occur resulting into a particular direction in a VN's direction.

As a community, we do what communities do, we grow. Even when we aren't directly sharing information, the process of memes from just interacting insures a cultural evolution. We steal and share and inspire and argue and debate and think. On a daily basis we are processing new information from others and adding it to our communal knowledge. For example, I 'stole' Voight's idea for sprite tinting and developed it into something I knew how to use. I'm sure many of us borrow ideas from others all the time and that is what allows us to grow. This wouldn't work if we all worked in isolation and growth would be significantly stunted.

The community was never about isolation. Just this topic was overwhelming so I ran away for awhile.

Posters are incredibly supportive here. There is more to size than sharing though.

That is why bureaucracies rarely work. Specifically the "legitimate direction" of a large group. What they see as reference, what they criticize and hate, what they love and praise.

As for the question as to what gets discussed... I think one thing is people actually get blindsided by quality and kind of don't look too much deeper than that. Which is a shame, thinking about things further is always more interesting. Appealing graphics are nice and all, but what are the graphics doing. Their quality is actually covering the function, which is technically what good graphics (and other forms of communication) do. "Good design is invisible' and all that. But it does mean comment on the function tends to be more limited unless people are more in the know on the technical side of things. In games with more minimal designs, the message is far easier to get to and the main thing of discussion. The other thing is that there are people who just enjoy playing VNs and aren't looking to analyse them. I know I tend to tear apart most media so I can try and understand it, but a lot of people are just into the entertainment. Lack of comment on their part doesn't always indicate that the game itself was lacking, if you know what I mean.

Again, sadly this is just inevitably but the plus side is that without this - there would be no tournament of life where old art gets praised as finally falcon punching through the masses.

Has OELVN development peaked?
Yes... the answer is Yes and it's currently stuck there with nowhere to go...

Well... you can actually go beyond just a bit but that will mean pushing the boundaries such as godly drawings, good music, twilight level story or perhaps gimmicks like 3D BG's or characters or other exotic stuff beyond my comprehension... which is probably out of reach of most OELVN creators (a.k.a. Hobbyist who are not out there for money but the glory and attention-whoring purposes )

Now this is where it gets really... hot...

I think Katawa Shoujo was bad for OELVN's

Let's not deny the fact that KS while not really that good compared to other real VN's still beats every single "free" OELVN (including mine) hands down in terms of execution, graphics, music... well maybe not so about the story but still interesting enough to hook someone for quite a bit of time due to it's length coupled with the fact that they advertised it everywhere (aka spam it everywhere) and being associated with 4chan gives it a massive boost... now everyone wants to be a KS dev or "inspired" to make a KS-like VN... which is easier said than done...

Let's not forget that KS took like several years to make. Made possible by a large number of talented people divided to work on a specific task under the command of some narcistic nazi (yes I said that)... please take note that you have to be a special kind of leader to actually control and maintain a group of diverse people who probably have their own vision and ideas to accomplish the task that made KS possible without much compensation other that bragging rights and ego-boost and that is NOT easy... and will most likely not gonna be repeated in a long time.

While I have the luxury of not being compared to KS devs since I predate them (I'm talking about FREE OELVN's here) the next generation will certainly have it hard since their work will definitely be judged against a benchmark title like KS and as I have stated earlier... it will be next to impossible to do another KS due to the huge logistical requirements... I mean... what are the chances you'll snag some skilled artist or composer or coder who will work for you for Doritos and a bit of attention?...

And even if you did... you don't have the marketing arm KS has (a.k.a. spam everywhere) or the prestige of being associated with 4chan... so unless you have the ways and means to spread the word about your work... expect to be buried...

And here comes some groups that will most likely say... "Oh yeah, we will be better than KS devs! Just you wait!" ... OK, no one is stopping you but I'm betting 50 Philippine Pesos you'll not finish that OELVN or if you finish it chances are you're going commercial... I mean you have the motivation to give it your best and nothing is better at motivating someone other than money...

So yes... as far as FREE OELVN's are concerned... it has reached the peak... but is this a bad thing?... Nope not really... all I need to do is change my mindset and ask myself... why do I do this?...

Depending on circumstances, I can either continue my OELVN activities and do what I love doing the most which is creating OELVN's regardless of how well it will be received while hoping for the best or I could just simply quit and save myself from the headaches and stress of not being able to become the next KS and go back to swimming in money while I sell Printer Inks by the bulk...

OK Guys... FLAME ON!!!... Excuse me while I hide...

"POOF" (Disappears)

Thank you for understanding. Ironically we live in the same country so maybe that's why.

Love the post. Afraid to comment on it though. (Not that I know much about it and you could just be joking.)

*cough* but I also agree with this:

I disagree completely. I think KS is a step in the *right* direction. It shows the English-speaking world that visual novels are not that weird Japanese thing with piss-poor wish-fulfilment writing that panders to shut-in perverted basement dwellers who cannot get laid. Though, in that regard it could have done better by not including hentai scenes at all. But the characterization and storytelling has gone a long way. While it will be a long time until the genre is taken as seriously as, say, Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Total War or The Elder Scrolls, it is a step in the right direction regardless.

I see that as a positive development, since that 'mainstreaming' of OELVN means that potential creators of the genre can begin to look elsewhere for help. The Paradox, Taleworlds and Total War Center folks, for instance. Proud history, Tolkien and G. R. R. Martin fans who have all the reasons to look down on the OELVN community, but who have a huge reserve of untapped manpower. They have talented programmers who have taken apart entire game engines and put them together again the way they want them to be,. They have a good pool of great artists for 3D and 2D art alike. They have armies of great writers and researchers who can come up with dozens of sources for even the most remote of historical characters and events and put them together into great stories. And boy, have they completed awesome projects. All completed, despite all differences and available completely for free.

IMO, the OELVN community needs people like them - serious programmers and modders. And what better way to do so than to prove, step by step, that VN as a genre is not just about wish-fulfilment of losers who can't get any?

-----

I'm a bit new to the forum, so I hope you don't mind if I chime in.

I think the main reason why KS did as well as it did is because it innovated just enough in the right area. How many people have complained about eroges degrading women, and making them faceless objectives? The fact that every girl had their own personality, and was treated like an actual person was the thing that really drew me to KS, and then to OELVNs in general. I think it also came at just the right time, when people were looking for something positive in a slew of negativity. It's hard to find any TV show, movie, or even comic book made for adults that isn't "Dark and Edgy", while Katawa Shoujo was all about learning about people and exploring what makes us different.

But do I think we've reached the peak? Hell no! Have we reached a plateau? Maybe. I think part of what's holding us back is the idea that there is only one peak, instead of many mountains. Everyone is trying to climb this one mountain, after seeing someone get to the top, that we ignore the fact that there are other, much taller mountains right next to it.

Overall, I have to say I'm very hopeful for this community. I can't wait to see what other VNs will come out soon. (There are definitely a few WIPs I'm very interested in.)

Hello. I'm new to the forums too technically. (Old time lurker, no completed OELVN, long hiatus, never a regular lurker)

KS is deep but it can also be shallow like Mugen said. That's cause it's simply the cream of the crop of OELVNs for a long time. Not just in general art or advertising but because it has a "pick up and play" theme that you could analyze like that.

Ironically enough, yes...that is one of the point of a topic like this. There are many mountains but are we all going to the top of one mountain after having left behind other hills and mountains and plains and forests?

See peak does not mean one peak but when something has unconsciously peaked (like FF series for Rpg) people lose context of how to replicate and respond to works. (Like FF7 which went from so awesome to now it sucks by most FF communities while there are many FF6 apologist who claim it is the greatest FF since sliced bread still despite lack of evidence.)

See when that happens, it's not that differing opinions and tastes can't exist but the genre itself stagnates into a bad direction.

...Peak? What peak? Oh, you mean the one I'll never reach because the mountain seems to be growing each time I take a step ;p?

Anyway, there is so much to try out that I've only just started exploring the ways to make visual novels more appealing, and I think many others are still experimenting too. For example, Cinders has shown some nice visual experiments and there is also a project called Locked-In which experiments a lot with visuals and animation.

Even if you don't focus on art, there is a lot to experiment with music, sounds and the story too. Especially the latter.

Right now, creating VNs is incredibly fun because we can still grow and learn so much. I feel like we're at the start of something cool, rather than at the end of it.

Nah, you're looking at the technology behind the art. Of course RenPy would improve. That's the hallmark of a great art engine.

Saying you won't reach it is like saying Shakespeare made it impossible for Harry Potter and Twilight to succeed.

Hmm....if the actual issue is that oelvns have nowhere to go but down, how do you go "down" when the starting point is pretty much "hobbyists and indie creators who are just hitting their stride?" Having seen some of the games from the commercial developers here, I can tell you that there seems to be marked improvement with each passing game--I honestly think they're just getting started in terms of what they can do. And from the hobbyists...forgive me, but I think the bulk of them right now are still learning the program and putting out "practice pieces" as they work towards making, eventually, a breakthrough game. There's that quote..."10,000 hours before you become an expert?"

Nah, down is a different topic. Not that you can't talk about it over here without it being on topic but there is always be a "down". That's the tournament of life. No one gets down, no other one gets up.

To make it more direct to the thread topic, you'd have to replace down with buried. Buried by what?

Btw the word here is "peaked" not "peak" (though either can be switched around)

Peaked as I intended implies less top of a genre and more "center of attraction".

I also agree with Obscura. How can we really go down if we haven't really gone up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail

I have a different perspective to offer on this subject. I've been a part of a community that while I was there grew, became somewhat popular and then faded into complete obscurity and died. The whole community was based around one site where everyone uploaded their works to an easily searchable database. The people running that database switched the downloads to subscription only and it killed interest in any newcomers to the format. The old crew hung around for a while beyond that, but new technologies made the whole thing obsolete. Then the programmer for the software everyone used disappeared off the face of the internet. With no new blood, no one took his/her place. There was an attempt to revive the community in a few new places, but it just isn't happening and everyone has moved on.

With this community, I think as long as we have an engine with active programmers and a database to find new games VNs will live on. The format hasn't been explored to it's fullest and even the main style of use isn't stale yet. I expect the peak will look a lot like what it did for RPG's where we start seeing more games that go out of their way to break the norm not because they want that style, but because they must be DIFFERENT! We're not there yet. I don't think we're even close.

Yes, but live on as what is the original premise of the thread.

I definitely don't think that OELVN development has peaked. Even if you think KS is the best OELVN currently out there, it would be like someone in the early 40s watching Citizen Kane or Casablanca and deciding that English-language film had peaked.

Now, it's possible that the idea of VN creation as a solitary endeavor has peaked, but that's a much different question from the original one.

Nope. (Especially Citizen Kane) would be an example of an industry that has "unpeaked" and returned to the roots of film making rather than producer meddling.

Katawa Shoujo would be closer to Avatar where it pushed 3d into the genre.

I hope this doesn't come off as nitpicking. I am treating your example lightly but a bit of the context of those films have to be here.

KS is the best not because it's the prettiest or the best story or the best model or the one with the most favorable opinions. It is the best simply because it went where no OELVN has gone before thus producing a new sci fi culture that think they were true sci fi fans because they can speak Klingon, look cool in futuristic skin tight suits of bland colors and generally fuel one major direction of future sci-fi storytelling at least when it comes to works on TV and movies.

[Obscura]

Wow, that's quite an extended reply, dim sum. I started typing up a response, but I quickly realized that I'm not sure if I understand a single facet of your argument. I am now even more confused. I don't know if it's a cultural barrier, or the missing parts of my brain, or what.

All I can say is that as someone who wants to make games, I'm just gonna, uh, you know, keep on creating.

Cheers.

[Graph]

KS is the best not because it's the prettiest or the best story or the best model or the one with the most favorable opinions. It is the best simply because it went where no OELVN has gone before thus producing a new sci fi culture that think they were true sci fi fans because they can speak Klingon, look cool in futuristic skin tight suits of bland colors and generally fuel one major direction of future sci-fi storytelling at least when it comes to works on TV and movies.

You and Mugen have an interesting standpoint on Katawa Shoujo, but I feel that it has little effect on OELVNs "peaking" in general.

KS is unusual in that it was made in the English community, but approaches the scope of JVNs on a non-existent budget. Surely it's inspired many to think there is hope for the OELVN, and produced a number of idea guys who want to follow in its footsteps. However, from a game design perspective KS hasn't done much to break the mold. It emulates the love polygon story format that the Japanese started (admittedly I don't know which game started all this, but I'm at least sure that Tsukihime had a major influence in and out of Japan). This "peak" won't have a lasting effect on OELVN development for a couple of reasons:

1. The point where it innovates is rather specific, and not applicable as a broad game/story mechanic. Unless you specifically want to make a game about girls with disabilities, most of those who say they're following in the footsteps of KS are actually following the already well-established love polygon game genre Japan created. If KS is perceived as groundbreaking, it's mainly because Visual Novels are new to the West and people don't know of its history yet.

2. As many have pointed out, the scope will be nearly impossible to emulate for a project with zero budget. Since the vast majority of the imitators will fail, what effect will KS really have on future games?

I can agree that Katawa Shoujo represents a milestone for OELVNs... but I've yet to see an argument that convinces me that it represents a peak. If anything it seems to me that this is just the beginning!

But since many of our games still have roots in JVN design, maybe a more interesting question is... have JVNs peaked? Is it just the love polygon story that has become saturated, or do all the other genres have endless droves of imitators as well? I bring this up because I'm still trying to understand the line of thinking behind this topic. Do people believe that JVNs have done everything there is to be done, and once we match their level of production there's nowhere left to go?