Gay Option

[AnthonyHJ]

But in western culture men are almost trained to hate gay men, I think.

I'd say games are one of the strongest tools for re-educating kids. I doubt many of us here will really have much effect on the youth of today, but you have to start somewhere. Train them to stop hating gay men.

Bioware drew a line in the sand and said "this far, but no further" and I think it is up to every games developer to do the same. As an industry, we are helping to shape the opinions of our culture and we need to decide if we are part of the solution or part of the problem.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Baby steps are sometimes the best way.

Having gay relationships is pretty full on. Just having gay characters that are not campy or deviants is the easiest way to make everyone comfortable.

[Destiny]

Possible, but I feel that most gay side characters are there for the humour or the love, but nothing else.
Just look at Persona 4 with Kanji.
He is a "gay in the closet", it is revealed when you fight against his "fag shadow" and the rest of the game is all about him arguing that his shadow is wrong, that he is straight and about Yosuke getting all cautious fearing that Kanji might rape him in his sleep. Plus Naoto (a girl dressed as a boy) being all touchy with him making it even more strange.
Sure, Persona 4 was one huge comedy game (I mean, seriously, a stupid bear turning in a superhot bishi?!), but most gay characters are depicted like that.
Be it in sitcoms or books and games, the gay side character is there for the "fag humour", waving around with his pink handbag and discussing with the woman about which dress suits them most and totally freaking out when his hair gets wet.

They are the ones making the audience laugh because they are so queer and overemotional that it becomes a running gag for them being all "D'Aww". Simliar to "the strange black guy", since black people seem to be all like Eddie Murphy, overreacting and totally crazy, loving guns and fat woman. Stereotypes, but I see them all around.
The few games that are serious about the themes without making it go awkward...are rare ôo
At least I don't know that many of them.

I would love to see lots of games (and books and movies) turning that image around and being serious about it.
But it's still seemingly uncommon, almost as if men aren't able to have a serious relationship when both are male.

[TrickWithAKnife]

To be fair, I think male/female relationships are portrayed in a pretty unrealistic, bizarre way too...

[SusanTheCat]

Less bang for his buck, so to speak.

(σ.σ)

Susan

[Anthy]

little Persona 4 comment

Kanji was never actually gay, but his crush on Naoto (and general fear of rejection from women too) made him insecure/confused about his sexuality and so his shadow manifested that way. Since the Persona team handled a transsexual character really well in Catherine, I don't think it's the intent to make Kanji some kind of "reformed" gay. That's missing the point... I mean, it's a problem that his knee-jerk reaction to this "slender boy" he found attractive was "oh my god, I'm a flaming homo!?" and other team members poke fun at his insecurity but that's different than saying he's actually gay and continues to hide it.

anywhoo... I like it when there are bisexual options but it isn't something that I think has to be in every game. It doesn't always fit, either, not every game has to have romantic endings. A lot of the time I don't really even care about romance that much, a good base story is more important (although if the story is really good I'm more likely to care about the characters and pairings). I can think of a few instances where I would have loved GxG options but BxG was the only path with that character... disappointing, since I don't like to settle; I rarely like how BxG stuff with the female characters I find attractive are handled anyway so I just end up going for another girl (or boy).

It's somewhat simliar to the thing with woman and sexual themes like anal sex or masturbation. Woman get educated to dislike talking or even thinking about it, resulting in girls often starting to think about these themes between 14 and 17 while boys start as early as with 10.

To be fair a large part of the reason women don't normally think of anal sex has nothing to do women being mentally trained to dislike it Most gay guys I know have told me they don't like it either.

[Kuroneko_rg]

Just look at Persona 4 with Kanji.
He is a "gay in the closet", it is revealed when you fight against his "fag shadow" and the rest of the game is all about him arguing that his shadow is wrong, that he is straight and about Yosuke getting all cautious fearing that Kanji might rape him in his sleep. Plus Naoto (a girl dressed as a boy) being all touchy with him making it even more strange.

You got it wrong, Kanji is not gay. He was just afraid of people because he is odd in many senses. Yosuke is wary of him
because his approaching to Naoto. Kanji freaks out whenever Naoto is around because he thinks she is a guy, and he is
clearly attracted to her. That's why he is so relieved when Naoto's gender is revealed.
I don't find it surprising that you got mistaken with it. Atlus made sure to make this more clear on the anime where Kanji's
interest in Naoto is far more clear.

Both Kanji and Naoto have issues with how society implies man and woman should be. Kanji being rejected for his hobbies,
Naoto being unaccepted in her profession.

[J. Datie]

You got it wrong, Kanji is not gay.

Well, maybe. It never says that he is gay, but at the same time, it never says that he isn't.

[Destiny]

You got it wrong, Kanji is not gay. He was just afraid of people because he is odd in many senses. Yosuke is wary of him
because his approaching to Naoto. Kanji freaks out whenever Naoto is around because he thinks she is a guy, and he is
clearly attracted to her. That's why he is so relieved when Naoto's gender is revealed.
I don't find it surprising that you got mistaken with it. Atlus made sure to make this more clear on the anime where Kanji's
interest in Naoto is far more clear.

Both Kanji and Naoto have issues with how society implies man and woman should be. Kanji being rejected for his hobbies,
Naoto being unaccepted in her profession.

Then he is bisexual.
Simple reason: The shadow shows the inner feelings. Be it Yosukes "Gimme some action!"-attitude, Chie with her wish that Yukiko would depend on her or Naoto who is fed up with being treated like a child in a men dominanted world.
So if the shadow of Kanji is giving off obvious hints of being gay (seriously, that enemy has put him inside a rose field, attacks with giant male symbols as well as two...daring male statues) as well as the way the shadow talks to Kanji and the other protagonists.

Also Atlus said they want it to stay ambigious and for the players to decide wether Kanji is gay and just accepts Naoto as a girl (there are enough straight men that fall once in their life for a man, so it wouldn't be anything unusable) or if he is bisexual or just really woman hating and because of this cares more for men even though he is straight.
I myself prefer the first way since his shadow was just too direct about this in my eyes and he is also himself too anxious about other people thinking he is gay (reminding me extremly of a guy being angsty about coming out to his friends).
But - as I said - Atlus wanted to keep it open so I guess any answer is right somewhere.

But Kanji is at least in that way a good hint about how gays work in games.
Surpressed and frustrated, acting as comedy effect for their "rape aura" (meaning: other guys getting really nervous around them) and constantly behaving somewhat strange ôo

[Kuroneko_rg]

Simple reason: The shadow shows the inner feelings.

Shadows doesn't really show inner feelings, but an exaggerated version of them. The more hidden those feelings are, the more
exaggerated the shadow is. Yosuke's and Chie's personal issues weren't nearly as messed up as what other the other
characters have hidden.
Yukiko's feeling of being entrapped were literally implied by her shadow.
Kanji's idea that he could only relate with males were far exaggerated by his shadow.
Rise was demanded to live as a character, and she felt she was getting lost in it. Her shadow goes even further and show
multiple versions of herself.
Naoto's shadow is as messed up as Kanji's, attempting to change her sex.

He doesn't have to be bisexual nor straight nor gay. How do you expect a person who can't define his way to relate with people on a personal level to define his own sexuality?

The same goes to Naoto, who decided not to be a woman nor a man on a sexual level because she putted her profession over her sexuality. Her Social Link is my favorite because MC manage to break this wall and make her acknowledge herself
as a woman. I liked that this happens regardless of MC and her getting in a romantic relationship or not.

But yeah, Atlus used a clever way to play with sexuality in this game.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Just look at Persona 4 with Kanji.
He is a "gay in the closet", it is revealed when you fight against his "fag shadow" and the rest of the game is all about him arguing that his shadow is wrong, that he is straight and about Yosuke getting all cautious fearing that Kanji might rape him in his sleep. Plus Naoto (a girl dressed as a boy) being all touchy with him making it even more strange.

You got it wrong, Kanji is not gay. He was just afraid of people because he is odd in many senses. Yosuke is wary of him
because his approaching to Naoto. Kanji freaks out whenever Naoto is around because he thinks she is a guy, and he is
clearly attracted to her. That's why he is so relieved when Naoto's gender is revealed.
I don't find it surprising that you got mistaken with it. Atlus made sure to make this more clear on the anime where Kanji's
interest in Naoto is far more clear.

Both Kanji and Naoto have issues with how society implies man and woman should be. Kanji being rejected for his hobbies,
Naoto being unaccepted in her profession.

Actually, apparently it is recorded that in an interview with the english voice actor for Kanji, Atlus basically told him that Kanji was gay. Atlus stepped back from fully stating this in the english version and have been noted as saying they made it 'more subtle'. They are also on record as saying that they think it should be up to the player to decide whether Kanji was gay or not.

Speaking of Kanji, there is a EXCELLENT episode of Extra Credits that talks about him in relation to Sexual Diversity in games (and where I got the above information from). I highly recommend people watch it as it is very relevent to the current topic. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sexual-diversity

[TrickWithAKnife]

What a clever person this Atlas is. He has everyone talking about his game.

[Fungii]

I think maybe, the point about resources and backlash aside, it kind of matters to the point of the game? e.g if the point of the VN is story driven at heart and the romance is a tiny little side thing that won't ultimately affect a large part of your ending, then yeah why not have a gay option.
But if it is a harem game aimed specifically at BxG/GxB? Personally it'd feel a little weird to have the GxG/BxB route thrown in there. Not saying I'm against the option, it's just I would seem a little bit like you showed up to a vegetarian buffet and there's a giant steak on the side there just in case you walked into the wrong restaurant.

Iunno, context and resources.

[papillon]

... on the other hand it *is* considered polite for restaurants to have a vegetarian option even though they are not vegetarian restaurants.

I'll take pedantic derails of random analogies for $200, Alex.

[Fungii]

... on the other hand it *is* considered polite for restaurants to have a vegetarian option even though they are not vegetarian restaurants.

I'll take pedantic derails of random analogies for $200, Alex.

Touche.