About VNs and 18+ subforums

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#16 Post by fleet » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:40 pm

If this is a vote, I vote for "Mature" instead of "Let's Hentai Hentai."
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#17 Post by redeyesblackpanda » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:52 pm

PyTom wrote:I worry that mature is too low a bar. I think most TV-MA level stuff should be in the main section. (That may not matter, though.)
I rather agree with this. When I think "mature," I think of games like Halo, and other "violent games," not all of which are even bloody, or incredibly graphic.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#18 Post by Obscura » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:04 pm

Perhaps you could call it "Mature (18+) " just to help clarify things a little more?
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#19 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:33 pm

PyTom wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote: I believe the best solution for all parties involved, is to have a system like DeviantArt's. Simply put, both hentai and non-hentai works exist in the same boards, but individual threads are marked as Age Restricted. EVERYONE can see that these threads exist, and where they fall in the line-up of recent posts on the board, but only people over 18 with the "View Adult Content" checked in their profile can actually ACCESS the threads.
As far as I know, this method isn't supported by PhpBB3. Access control is on a per-forum basis, not on a per-thread basis.
That's a shame. Because if it remains a separate forum or board, it's still a ghetto with a stigma.
PyTom wrote: I'm willing to make this change, although I worry that mature is too low a bar. I think most TV-MA level stuff should be in the main section. (That may not matter, though.)
That ambiguity is kind of the point though. Is nudity really the only thing dividing a game from the main section and shoving it into the "Hentai" sub-forums? If so, that's wrong, since we've seen many examples on TV or movies where nudity is not used sexually, and even if it IS, the work still doesn't make it a focus, and doesn't qualify to be called perverted or porn.

What about works that show nudity but no sex acts? Are they still classified as "hentai" or just "mature"? If movies and TV shows were divided like we're currently dividing VNs, TV shows like "Dexter", "Game of Thrones", and "Spartacus", or movies like "Cabin in the Woods" and "Titanic" would all be in the porn section of the video store behind a red curtain. And I'd bet significantly fewer people would watch these excellent stories if someone slapped on sticker on them that says "Hey, this is perverted and is basically porn." Which is what a separate "Hentai" section essentially does to a work.

I worry about this like other creators because the game I'm currently working on has nudity in it, but there are no graphic displays or sex acts portrayed on screen. In fact, if it were a movie, it'd be a normal R or PG-13 rated comedy. I'd hate to have to stick it in the "porn" section of the site simply because there is no better fit for it.

Ideally I'd still like to see all game threads in one board - if we can't lock access to threads by age or setting, why not just rely on topic descriptors or a thread symbol indicating Mature content inside? Forum users are basically policing themselves at this point - despite many young members, it isn't like the sub-forum for "hentai" is actively keeping them out. Everyone knows it exists, and could alter their profile if they really wanted to see inside it. Modify the forum sign-up rules to state "If I am under-age I will not access threads or topics marked as 'Mature'", request that creators show some restraint with what they post in the threads (just like movies and tv shows do when advertising to uncertain audiences or in prime time) and be done with it. Maybe a little unrealistic I know, but it's so sad to see some great games whither and be forgotten because they are in the board without all the traffic going through.

Content descriptors in the thread's first post are definitely the way to go when letting people know what to expect from a game and removing all confusion. Nakedness or non-nakedness are really too binary and say nothing about context.
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Obscura wrote:Perhaps you could call it "Mature (18+) " just to help clarify things a little more?
I think that's a little too restrictive, and it still makes it seem like a porn section to include the 18+. Lot's of people in the West are already "programed" to automatically think of anything labeled "Over 18 Only" as pornographic. "Mature" by itself leaves it open to interpretation, which I think in the case of avoiding stigmatizing is a good thing.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#20 Post by KomiTsuku » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:23 am

"Mature" is a far better descriptor. "Adult's Only" may automatically be assumed to be porn in the West, but the "Mature" label from games and TV has been ingrained in our minds to mean ANY kind of content that may not be acceptable for children, but isn't necessarily porn.
I'm willing to make this change, although I worry that mature is too low a bar. I think most TV-MA level stuff should be in the main section. (That may not matter, though.)[/quote]
I agree with Py'Tom on this one. As someone who has only written a single story ever that has fallen under the "R" rating, but never done a single eroge, I really, really, really don't want to see my work thrown into the same category as Sexual Fantasy Kingdom. I don't need another bullet to my project's kneecaps when people go "Oh, it is in THAT category". I think we need to work out more what constitutes being in the "Hentai Hentai" forum than what else we can throw in.

"R" ≠ "AO"

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#21 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:44 am

KomiTsuku wrote: I agree with Py'Tom on this one. As someone who has only written a single story ever that has fallen under the "R" rating, but never done a single eroge, I really, really, really don't want to see my work thrown into the same category as Sexual Fantasy Kingdom. I don't need another bullet to my project's kneecaps when people go "Oh, it is in THAT category". I think we need to work out more what constitutes being in the "Hentai Hentai" forum than what else we can throw in.
Isn't that the point though? A lot of other people don't either.

But it seems like if you include any nudity at all, you get landed in the "Hentai Hentai" forum. Don't get me wrong - there are legitimate porn games like Sexual Fantasy Kingdom that belong in that category. But like you say, just because a VN has an "R Rating", to use American movie parlance, shouldn't put it on the "shelf" right next to that title. To use the movie Titanic as an example again, James Cameron included a naked drawing, an extended full back and frontal nudity scene, and non-explicit sex in the back of a car, and the movie was rated PG-13 and adults took their kids to see it. Multiple times. Because at the end of the day, it was a legitimately dramatic story that happened to contain nudity. Far different than a movie whose sole purpose is to deliver sex and nudity. Which in the movie industry may STILL not qualify it for anything more than an "R Rating".

Examples:
"Do You Like Horny Bunnies?" strikes me as a pure porn VN. The entire game is you trying to sleep with every woman in the restaurant as many times as possible. A graphic sex scene pops up every 15-20 minutes and you can't NOT have sex. The story is almost non-existent.

"Kana ~ Little Sister" is a "Mature" VN. It has nudity and sex scenes. (In the original version at least.) But it also has a very strong and dramatic story, and the nudity and sex are used in service to that story and are largely avoidable/can have significant negative ramifications. It definitely doesn't deserve the "porn" label.

Perhaps the answer IS to have better screening for the "Hentai Hentai" forum, and not be so quick to throw games out of the main section even if they have nudity or sex.

Or, go full tilt and split the boards along ALL ratings. Have a "Safe for Everyone" board, a "Teen" board, a "Mature" board, and an "Adults Only" board. Make everything into a ghetto. (I don't actually think this is a good idea, just throwing it out there.)
"R" ≠ "AO"
Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#22 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:33 am

If you allowed the games to all exist on one board you could always prohibit certain content from being shown (either to be linked off site or avoided if it's within a VN) along with a tagging system. That way people won't get nasty surprises if people don't properly tag or so they can still check out game titles without being exposed to certain content. People have varying tastes so what some people consider okay, others may not. I can appreciate that people don't want to be stuck in a corner or stigmatised against, but that doesn't mean I want certain things popping up on my screen while other people are around because someone didn't tag something. I don't want to have to treat this site like that. I like to figure it's pretty safe for me to browse.

DA's system is:
What is Mature Content?

While deviantART does provide a Mature Content filtering system the Terms of Service forbids the submission of any pornographic or explicit sexual content.

Mature content is considered to be anything which contains nudity, excessive violence, blood, gore, or any other potentially upsetting or offensive material. Controversial pieces revolving around religion, political opinions and other similar sensitive subject matters should also be considered candidates to be tagged as mature content.

If you submit a work which should be tagged as mature content but neglect to tag it as such the deviantART administration reserves the right to mark the work appropriately.
And their definition of that material is (graphic descriptions):
You prohibit the submission of 'pornographic imagery'; what do you consider this to be?

When we mention 'pornographic content' in our policies we are specifically referring to specific subjects which we will clarify below.

We apologize if the descriptions below are slightly graphic.

The following contents are considered unacceptable for submission in either visual art or literature form and will be subjected to immediate removal without notice.

• Masturbation
Hands should not come into contact with genitalia in a manner which is clearly a display of fondling or masturbation.

• Sexual Intercourse.
Subjects should not be depicted in a clear display of sexual intercourse. This includes depictions of sexual penetration, oral to genital contact, genital to anal contact, and oral to anal contact without exception. Some depictions of same sex genital to genital contact and some depictions of oral to breast contact might qualify under this guideline as adjudicated by staff but not all will be considered an automatic violation of policy.

• Vaginal, Penile or Anal Penetration
This includes depictions of any object being inserted into the vagina, penis or anus.

• Sexual body fluids (actual or simulated).
There should be no depiction of semen or vaginal lubricants.

• Erections.
There should be no use of imagery depicting a male erection, however there may be exceptions granted to illustrations created for legitimate medical or educational purposes.

• Vaginal or Anal Spreading
Female subjects should not be depicted with their labia spread or parted in any manner by hand or manipulated open or parted by any other artificial means or object. Neither sex should show the anus manually opened in a similar fashion.

• Adult oriented (sexual) toys.
"Adult toys" consisting of dildos, strap-ons, vibrators, etc. are not allowed.

Submissions which are judged to be in violation of these guidelines will be removed without prior warning. Users found submitting such content may have their account banned or suspended without warning.Also be aware that we prohibit providing any outside link to another website which provides access to the material described above.
So nudity etc is okay as long as it is tagged. Other more explicit content can't be shown. Though this could mean a lot more work for admin/mods to keep any eye on what people are tagging and showing.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#23 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:51 am

Auro-Cyanide wrote:If you allowed the games to all exist on one board you could always prohibit certain content from being shown (either to be linked off site or avoided if it's within a VN) along with a tagging system. That way people won't get nasty surprises if people don't properly tag or so they can still check out game titles without being exposed to certain content. People have varying tastes so what some people consider okay, others may not. I can appreciate that people don't want to be stuck in a corner or stigmatised against, but that doesn't mean I want certain things popping up on my screen while other people are around because someone didn't tag something. I don't want to have to treat this site like that. I like to figure it's pretty safe for me to browse.
I actually like this idea the best. Like I said before, TV shows like "Spartacus" or "Game of Thrones" make all their advertisements, commercials, and previews safe for all audiences. Creators could do the same for their game VN threads. Let them tag the thread as Mature and use the proper descriptors in their post, but no one would be posting anything graphic in the threads, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if someone under age accidentally clicked on one.

I think the Dizzy Hearts thread is a pretty good example. None of the artwork on display in the thread contains nudity or sexually explicit imagery. As long as text descriptions don't get filthy or explicit, there is no reason such a thread couldn't exist on the main board if properly marked as Mature. Creators could link to blogs or external images if they wanted to show more explicit imagery, while keeping the actual threads themselves fairly work safe. It's kind of the best of both worlds. Creators of more mature works get the improved traffic of the main board, while forum goers don't have to worry about certain things "popping up" on their screen while browsing.

So, yeah, I'm with Auro-Cyanide here. Let's open the main board for ALL types of work, just redefine what's acceptable to post in a thread. If creators want to show the nakedness before someone plays the game, they can link to those images with a warning, otherwise all creators can do what producers and executives do with movies and hide the goods to get people to download the actual VN.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#24 Post by Samu-kun » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:01 am

I do agree that the name of the forum is bad. It harkens back to a bygone age when the entire forum consisted of 30 guy friends playing bargain bin J-List games. Today, I just think renaming it the "Adult" section would be more appropriate. Kana Imouto certainly is no porn, just like Homeward isn't, but both games were intended to be played by adults, so both should be limited to adults. I don't really think something on the level of Game of Thrones or Titanic will be sent to the hentai section in the first place. The stuff in the hentai section's pretty much intended to be adult.

I don't think separating out the forums really presents an insurmountable obstacle to a game. Homeward still got about 90 posts + more responses via PMs+twitter, despite pretty much bare bones publicity. Considering the fact that straightforward BxG games here aren't very popular anyways, it was a pretty good response. And realistically, the people who would want to play Homeward and get the most out of it would be so used to other H-games that putting it in the hentai forum wouldn't even matter!

I think the real reason why most of the games in the hentai section aren't popular is because they are legitimately bad games. (shot)

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#25 Post by papillon » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:25 am

... from what I saw of a few minutes of accidentally watching Game of Thrones (at least I think that's what it was), I *would* be happy to shove it off into a 'Mature Audiences' section. Not for brief* nudity, for being way too violent.

There are quite a lot of kids who are into these games, and I've had players who were distressed by the level of scariness/violence in my games, which are nowhere near an M rating. If you want to be helpful to the audience of people who may not want to stumble into these things by accident, you also need to take things like this into account. (Warning, there's an image in that thread which many people will NOT want to see, especially at work or other sensitive locations. THAT WAS MY POINT.)


* I have no idea how brief or not any nudity in that show is, but in the Titanic example the nudity is brief.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#26 Post by Dim Sum » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:50 am

Is discussion in alignment with OP's desire?

Example: all talks of Mature solved by Cat III statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_ ... ing_system
Of the four levels, Levels I, IIA, and IIB are advisory ratings only, and carry no legal effect. Only Level III forbid a certain portion of the population from watching the film. Ticket sellers in movie theatres have a legal right to check the identity of a person who wishes to watch a Level III film to ensure legal compliance.
but would I be rallying for Cat III-ish sounding category? No.

LSF not bureaucrat but topic discussion sounds like bureaucratic circle jerk.

"Oh, we don't have enough games being visited on the H section so let's squeeze Katawa Shoujo and some notable games with nudity in there. That would totally make the H section HBO.

On other hand, read OP's tl;dr and it not come off like frustration was with name. OP was not saying, "Let's find a way to change hentai into eroge just cause it should."

Yes, OP kinda shot themselves with paragraphs. Trying to make a case for eroge as if eroge meant quality and trying to rail against hentai as if hentai meant nukige but...
I have been a member here for nearly a year. And prior to making this post I had my own development thread moved to the Hentai thread. Which was perfectly with the boundary of the rules for why it was moved. But before and after, I noticed the way in which this sub-forum was treated as an unwanted black sheep. How after making my thread, with updated visuals for my currently In-Development game Dizzy Hearts. Interest rose in the game not barely, but drastically From a blog that barely got 10-20 unique hits a day, I was getting hundreds. And people began to actually follow the game. After it was moved, the interest died. The thread died. The views died, and only the followers I had made then remained.
They did not have name change in mind as problem. They have lack of attention for Hentai section as problem. Something that is more problematic cause of age limited access and hentai 2nd class citizenry than it is about name.

Last paragraph is most important not to be ignored, not name change suggestion:
I personally think it is crucial for all forms of VN to not just tolerated, but for forum-wide misconceptions to be clarified and people given the capability to create their project how they envisioned it. and not have to censor it in order to gain any following at all. Because it is the wish of any creator to have his work seen.
So long as culture and separate sub-forum access exist, censorship exists.

This not mean there is perfect unanimous solution but when post express this problem and name change only facet of problem expressed while posters replying express re-moving Titanic/Spartacus/Game of Thrones thread in renamed sub-forum cause they talk name change, are we not acting as bureaucrats and treating issue as if it is something else?

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#27 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:55 am

papillon wrote: There are quite a lot of kids who are into these games, and I've had players who were distressed by the level of scariness/violence in my games, which are nowhere near an M rating. If you want to be helpful to the audience of people who may not want to stumble into these things by accident, you also need to take things like this into account. (Warning, there's an image in that thread which many people will NOT want to see, especially at work or other sensitive locations. THAT WAS MY POINT.)
Wow. I must be getting jaded or used to the violence with my age, but your games all seemed kind of well . . . nice and fluffy violence wise. But I definitely agree that violence/scariness is one of those things to keep in mind with refining posting standards for threads. It shouldn't just be nudity that makes something unsuitable for younger ages. Creator's shouldn't be showing nudity in their threads anymore than you should be showing hacked up or dismembered people.
papillon wrote: ... from what I saw of a few minutes of accidentally watching Game of Thrones (at least I think that's what it was), I *would* be happy to shove it off into a 'Mature Audiences' section. Not for brief* nudity, for being way too violent.

* I have no idea how brief or not any nudity in that show is, but in the Titanic example the nudity is brief.


Yes. Game of Thrones definitely belongs in a Mature Audiences section. And uh, the nudity isn't really brief in that show. :lol: Link is safe for work. The Titanic nude scene doesn't seem brief when one has to spend weeks making Kate Winslet's nipples 3D for IMAX. But that could just be me. :wink:
Dim Sum wrote:This not mean there is perfect unanimous solution but when post express this problem and name change only facet of problem expressed while posters replying express re-moving Titanic/Spartacus/Game of Thrones thread in renamed sub-forum cause they talk name change, are we not acting as bureaucrats and treating issue as if it is something else?
You are right. The name change of a sub-forum is only a symptom of a larger issue - namely that some VNs are getting unfairly typecast and stigmatized because they aren't friendly for all ages.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#28 Post by Samu-kun » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:22 am

I think people are misunderstanding something. The current hentai forum has little to do with protecting people of weaker sensibilities from questionable content and more to do with complying with US adult entertainment industry regulations. Gore and violence is permitted in the general section since it would be permissible under US law to advertise such content to general audiences. Game of Thrones would not belong in the adult section since it's not required under US law to be restricted to adults. Kana Imouto would have to be restricted because it has a penis in it. Take this issue up with the US Congress, not Pytom, since he can't do anything about that.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#29 Post by Taosym » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:44 am

Samu-kun wrote:I think people are misunderstanding something. The current hentai forum has little to do with protecting people of weaker sensibilities from questionable content and more to do with complying with US adult entertainment industry regulations. Gore and violence is permitted in the general section since it would be permissible under US law to advertise such content to general audiences. Game of Thrones would not belong in the adult section since it's not required under US law to be restricted to adults. Kana Imouto would have to be restricted because it has a penis in it. Take this issue up with the US Congress, not Pytom, since he can't do anything about that.
For one, that is implying that rating, censorship and advisory warnings are created by the US Congress. They arn't. Agencies like the MSRB, are independent agencies. And they decide on their own, using a panel of parents what is acceptable, and at what rating. PyTom only has what is allowable by the host of his website, or if you have them, advertisers.

For instance, people do not know this, but Lolicon is not actually illegal in the US. It is however prohibited by advertisers, hosts, what have you. Due to the stigma associated with it. PyTom could allow whatever his host allows him to. Which can include guro, but not loli. But if he was to host adult material, he would have to give enough safeguards to warn minors that they are not allowed in restricted area.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#30 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:50 am

Samu-kun wrote:I think people are misunderstanding something. The current hentai forum has little to do with protecting people of weaker sensibilities from questionable content and more to do with complying with US adult entertainment industry regulations. Gore and violence is permitted in the general section since it would be permissible under US law to advertise such content to general audiences. Game of Thrones would not belong in the adult section since it's not required under US law to be restricted to adults. Kana Imouto would have to be restricted because it has a penis in it. Take this issue up with the US Congress, not Pytom, since he can't do anything about that.
That's not right. Game of Thrones does have penis in it. GTA 4 had penis in it and wasn't restricted to adults. Recommended for 17 and older. Legally allowed to be sold to a child, as determined by the Supreme Court. As the SNL skit pointed out that I linked to, Game of Thrones aired an orgy scene right after a children's movie. They just air a few seconds of warning and they are covered.

Yes, it is against the law to "corrupt minors", but that's never been made to stick to a piece of entertainment. That's only if you are buying kids booze or sitting them down in front of your porn collection. If it is alright for 13 year old kids to ogle Kate Winslet's 30 foot high breasts, and Game of Thrones and other shows can advertise in prime time viewing slots with child audiences, then I'd say it matters not a wit what a VN forum does or doesn't do as long as no explicit material is posted in the threads themselves.

Taosym is right. The US government nor any agencies have any authority over PyTom or this board so long as nothing illegal is posted. And sex, nudity, violence, or even loli isn't illegal.

Since the "rules" (such as they are) require little more than informing the audience of what they are about to see, or having a warning label, marking the thread as mature in the topic title would fulfill the requirement. A warning, a black bag, a sticker that says "Adults Only", a sign, a brief message, is all that is required.

Either EVERY VN inappropriate for all ages needs to go in a sub-forum, for violence or any other reason, or we need to pull titles that aren't porn but have nudity or other adult content in them and put them on on the main board. This is precisely what is bothering people. One person can make a gory corpse party style horror game and get to post on the main board, while someone who makes a game where nipples are briefly seen has to have their game be labeled perverted and shoved off into a corner of the forums.

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