About VNs and 18+ subforums

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OokamiKasumi
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#46 Post by OokamiKasumi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:43 pm

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: ... Let Mature games have threads on the main board so long as they don't contain any explicit imagery or words. If they want to post the explicit images of their game, they can link to them through properly tagged links or post in the, yes, hopefully renamed "Hentai Hentai" board. Just as R-Rated movie trailers are created for general audiences, there is no reason a creator can't advertise a mature game in the main boards in a way that makes the thread safe for general audiences.
This would make me a very happy camper.
-- I'm fine with leaving the Adult imagery etc. in the Adult forum, but at the moment, unless someone has access (and actually visits) the Adult forum, they won't know that I have 3 finished games in there, and another on the edge of completion (like, any day now.)
Last edited by OokamiKasumi on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#47 Post by Sharm » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:46 pm

I'm not a mother, but I'm very religious with an impressionable child in the house. I felt this discussion was a bit one sided, but I didn't know if I had anything to add, so I've just been lurking. Maybe my thoughts on this will be useful at this point.

It seems that the argument is that the only people this content filter is blocking out are people who would want to see it but don't like the stigma and are missing out. I personally am not even slightly interested in this type of content (in any format), and I've liked that I can choose not to turn off the filter and freely surf this forum at all times of the day without worrying that my very young niece will get scared or ask uncomfortable questions. My main worry with the self-policing is that there's enough people out there who like to impose their personal morality on people they feel are too prudish, making it basically useless. I don't like browsing DA during the day for that reason. On the other hand, if the self policing works and there isn't a problem with bait and switch threads I don't have a problem with this solution. I don't believe in micro managing children or making other people responsible for my child's (if I had one) bad behavior.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#48 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:19 am

Samu-kun wrote:But GTA4 definitely did not have a penis. o_O;
Yep. GTA4: The Lost and the Damned expansion pack, later bundled in with all boxed retail versions of the game, had an NPC that gave missions to the player while in a sauna, and he frequently uncrossed his legs to give the player a full (and realistically rendered) shot of his genitals. It caused a very minor scandal at the time, mostly from homophobic players. But when the Supreme Court struck down California's law that would make it a crime for retailers to sell M-Rated games to minors, they specifically called out GTA4 as a game that it would be legal for retailers to sell to minors.
Samu-kun wrote: US federal law takes a totality of the circumstances approach to legality of drawn minors engaging in sexual activity, so if a drawing is offensive enough and devoid of artistic merit, it may be illegal. Also, different states have differing definitions of what constitutes child pornography, although none can be more restrictive than federal law. (So the federal law should be what really matters)
And though several people and artists have been charged under this law, to my knowledge all the cases have been thrown out by the courts and the artists found to be innocent. It is REALLY hard to prove an image is devoid of artistic merit, ESPECIALLY when it is used in a larger artistic work like a game. Several cities and states have tried to charge artists holding exhibits, some even with real photos of children, and every time the Supreme Courts have told them they are wrong to do so.
Samu-kun wrote:Actually... the discussion has made me curious, so I will further investigate US porn laws to determine what's safe and what's not...
It is really non-intuitive, I'll admit. Go read the Supreme Court Justices closing statements on the California M-Rated games case.
Reading Dante is unquestionably more cultured and intellectually edifying than playing Mortal Kombat. But these cultural and intellectual differences are not constitutional ones. Crudely violent video games, tawdry TV shows, and cheap novels and magazines are no less forms of speech than The Divine Comedy … Even if we can see in them “nothing of any possible value to society … they are as much entitled to the protection of free speech as the best of literature.
The Court's decision OFFICIALLY gave video games First Amendment protection as works of art and expression. If Lolita is legal fare for a novel or movie to examine, a video game that explored the affair between an adult and child is similarly protected.

So right now, it is legal to sell games to minors that depict “killing, maiming, dismembering or sexually assaulting an image of a human being”. All the stores and retailers you go to that ban these kinds of sales are following corporate policy, not government policy or any laws.

I'm not arguing for some kind of policy of handing out Mature VNs to young forum goers left and right, but with a US based server, we don't need to be doing the hand-wringing or worrying you seem to think necessary, even if those under 18 do happen to grab these titles. Children are taken to art museums with naked paintings and statues, a naked anime sprite ending up in front of an underage forum goer isn't going to bring a SWAT team down on the forums.

BUT I'm actually arguing for threads NOT to have any naked pictures in them. The main board stays safe to browse, just like going to the iTunes store and watching all the movie trailers is safe, regardless of the content of the movies being advertised.
Sharm wrote:It seems that the argument is that the only people this content filter is blocking out are people who would want to see it but don't like the stigma and are missing out. I personally am not even slightly interested in this type of content (in any format), and I've liked that I can choose not to turn off the filter and freely surf this forum at all times of the day without worrying that my very young niece will get scared or ask uncomfortable questions.
I don't think anyone wants that. Everyone wants the main board to remain completely work safe to browse.
Sharm wrote: My main worry with the self-policing is that there's enough people out there who like to impose their personal morality on people they feel are too prudish, making it basically useless. I don't like browsing DA during the day for that reason. On the other hand, if the self policing works and there isn't a problem with bait and switch threads I don't have a problem with this solution. I don't believe in micro managing children or making other people responsible for my child's (if I had one) bad behavior.
I don't think self-policing is entirely sufficient. I still think admins should be able to edit a post to remove pictures that go over the line or tell the OP to tone it down or move it to the Mature sub-forum instead of the main board. I think if all threads start off properly marked in the title, we shouldn't even have problems with people accidentally entering one when they don't want to, even if they wouldn't find anything NSFW inside. Make it a rule that all threads discussing or advertising games with mature content mark the topic with a [Mature] tag in the topic name.

I'll admit I'm one of those people that feel others are too prudish, but I don't want the main boards suddenly flooded with naked and risque pictures either. I just want people to be able to discuss and follow the development of such titles in the main board with everyone else.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#49 Post by Sharm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:57 am

My fears have been addressed. Thanks LWR, this seems like a great solution.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#50 Post by Lekhaka » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:11 am

PyTom wrote:That being said, I think that LWR makes a good point - I'll phrase it as enforcing the adult rule on a per-thread, rather than a per-game basis.
Quoted for approval.

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Wat
My thoughts exactly.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#51 Post by Samu-kun » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:34 am

Yep. GTA4: The Lost and the Damned expansion pack, later bundled in with all boxed retail versions of the game, had an NPC that gave missions to the player while in a sauna, and he frequently uncrossed his legs to give the player a full (and realistically rendered) shot of his genitals. It caused a very minor scandal at the time, mostly from homophobic players. But when the Supreme Court struck down California's law that would make it a crime for retailers to sell M-Rated games to minors, they specifically called out GTA4 as a game that it would be legal for retailers to sell to minors.
And though several people and artists have been charged under this law, to my knowledge all the cases have been thrown out by the courts and the artists found to be innocent. It is REALLY hard to prove an image is devoid of artistic merit, ESPECIALLY when it is used in a larger artistic work like a game. Several cities and states have tried to charge artists holding exhibits, some even with real photos of children, and every time the Supreme Courts have told them they are wrong to do so.
Just off the top of my head, these two quotes are inaccurate statements of both the Brown v. Entertainment Merchants (video game) case and of US obscenity law in general.

As far as I can recall from reading it a year ago, the Court in Brown was deciding whether violence in video games was protected under the First Amendment. The Court explicitly said the case had nothing to do with sexual content, if I recall correctly. Under US law, sex is much more heavily restricted than violence. The only holding I remember from the case is that video game violence was protected under the First Amendment, not video game sex.

I only recall one case dealing with possessing lolicon manga, and there, defendant pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography before it reached trial. The important thing to note in that case is that under US law, what is considered obscene is determined by local community standards. The defendant was being tried in Iowa, so it was pretty much a lost cause to argue artistic merit in the middle of some rural community in the out of nowhere. (Also the case overruled some parts of the PROTECT Act which was just horribly worded, but since it's a 9th Circuit case, it's holding is only binding in parts of the Midwest for now.)

But that's just about the only thing I remember just off the top of my head...

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#52 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:46 am

Samu-kun wrote: Just off the top of my head, these two quotes are inaccurate statements of both the Brown v. Entertainment Merchants (video game) case and of US obscenity law in general.

As far as I can recall from reading it a year ago, the Court in Brown was deciding whether violence in video games was protected under the First Amendment. The Court explicitly said the case had nothing to do with sexual content, if I recall correctly. Under US law, sex is much more heavily restricted than violence. The only holding I remember from the case is that video game violence was protected under the First Amendment, not video game sex.
Yes, the Court specifically sited violence, but they were also overturning the California law which tried to ban any game that included (specifically - the wording of the law) “killing, maiming, dismembering or sexually assaulting an image of a human being” from being sold to minors. So sex was overturned as an implication of the ruling. BUT that is beside the point. The important take-away is games are now officially protected by the First Amendment. Meaning if a book, movie, or TV show can legally deal with a topic or show it, video games can too without fear of legal repercussions.

So ergo, if a movie can depict a a underage girl in a relationship with a adult, i.e. any of the Lolita adaptions, or movies like Pretty Baby, then video games can cover those same topics and use the same imagery without being declared obscene. They are protected as works of art.

And lolicon is sold in the US in many mangas sold in bookstores and over Amazon, and even English versions of anime like "Dance in the Vampire Bund" have child nudity in a sensual manner, and they are sold and imported without issue. Yes, I think I read about some poor sap caving in to his small town charges, but any similar case that has been fought in the courts have seen the defendant succeed in getting charges dropped. Local judges may be quick to charge, but federal judges have been very consistent in finding it absurd to arrest someone over drawings where the graphite line doesn't curve enough in the chest area. That's less a case of what's the law than local police and judges being on a morality kick and a defendant not knowing his rights.

(Sorry, the lolicon issue just annoys me more than anything, because it is such a perversion of the purpose of child pornography laws, does nothing to protect real children, and I feel absurd at its very core. I've brought it up before, but in countries where lolicon is illegal, I could give you a post-it note drawing of two stick-figures having sex, and if I drew an arrow to one and wrote 'Child' you'd suddenly be in possession of child porn. :roll: It's 100% pure thought policing, and strikes me as chillingly Orwellian, but's that getting off topic.)

Anyway: TL;DR
Supreme Court ruling gave First Amendment protection, meaning video games are free to tackle controversial content if they so desire, same as books, TV, and movies. I'm not saying we should PUSH the boundaries, but there's really no reason to panic if creators poke them with their VNs.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#53 Post by cuttlefish » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:27 am

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: ... Let Mature games have threads on the main board so long as they don't contain any explicit imagery or words. If they want to post the explicit images of their game, they can link to them through properly tagged links or post in the, yes, hopefully renamed "Hentai Hentai" board. Just as R-Rated movie trailers are created for general audiences, there is no reason a creator can't advertise a mature game in the main boards in a way that makes the thread safe for general audiences.
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:... I still think admins should be able to edit a post to remove pictures that go over the line or tell the OP to tone it down or move it to the Mature sub-forum instead of the main board. I think if all threads start off properly marked in the title, we shouldn't even have problems with people accidentally entering one when they don't want to, even if they wouldn't find anything NSFW inside. Make it a rule that all threads discussing or advertising games with mature content mark the topic with a [Mature] tag in the topic name.

I'll admit I'm one of those people that feel others are too prudish, but I don't want the main boards suddenly flooded with naked and risque pictures either. I just want people to be able to discuss and follow the development of such titles in the main board with everyone else.
I agree. I think this would lessen the stigma around Mature games, and I (for one) would be more willing to go to the Mature board because I would know what is there. I see no point in "giving up my birthday" if there's actually nothing to see on that board (i.e. nothing I find interesting).

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#54 Post by Taleweaver » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:46 am

FYI: We're in the final stages of discussing a new solution with the 18+ subforums; expect us to come up with something in the next few days.
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#55 Post by OokamiKasumi » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:04 am

Taleweaver wrote:FYI: We're in the final stages of discussing a new solution with the 18+ subforums; expect us to come up with something in the next few days.
Fantastic!
-- Thank you guys so much for doing this. While I do write Adult, I don't quite fit under the 'hentai' label. And well, it's been lonely in there...
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#56 Post by fleet » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:48 am

I concur with what OokamiKasumi said.
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Some are at http://www.the-new-lagoon.com. NSFW
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#57 Post by Blane Doyle » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Just to throw in my two cents: I always thought it would be a good idea to have an All Ages (anything between G-PG movie ratings), a Mature (PG-13 to R), and an 18+ section (You get the gist). But whatever you guys are coming up with? I look forward to it.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#58 Post by Minnfae » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:32 pm

But the ESRB M (Mature) rating is 17+, not 13+, so it would be confusing
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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#59 Post by Blane Doyle » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:23 pm

Minnfae wrote:But the ESRB M (Mature) rating is 17+, not 13+, so it would be confusing
When you look at game ratings from the ESRB you have EC (G, or no equivelant), E (G or PG), E10+ (PG or No equivelant), T (PG-13), M/17+ (R), AO/18+ (NC-17 and above). (I always wondered WHY there is a one year difference between M and AO. The official ratings themselves are confusing to me because you have a 3 then 4 then 1 year age gap between the ratings themselves.)

All ages could contain EC, E, and E10+, Mature could contain T and M (based on the content), and 18+ is obvious.

Or All Ages could contain EC-T and then Mature would be M and 18+ be obvious. But then that would beg the question of what is M and what is T. By combining T and M you could, in theory, make the distinction between all ages and what is not all ages without spending a excessive amount of time wondering if a few throw away lines is too much for all ages, if a few very violent or suggestive themes (but not what would be expected in an M rated game) would make it go into the mature section.

Or my idea could be total bunk. Who knows. My only distinction is between All Ages, Mature (not restricted, more like a warning to players), and 18+. If it has full on sex or excessive gore it is 18+. If it has mild nudity or suggestions of sex without showing it full on or a lot of violence, it is mature but not restricted. Anything else falls under All Ages (in theory). This could be because I think it is ridiculous and unfair to the creators to restrict and censor creative content to the extent that we do.

But I don't really have a say in this, the admins and mods do. This is just me thinking.

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Re: About VNs and 18+ subforums

#60 Post by nyaatrap » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:44 pm

Isn't the Internet already PG-13+?

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