Why so many unfinished VN?

[Katta]

Btw thinking positively some unfinished projects may still be finished one day, the fact that they look dead doesn't mean they really are. It's quite common that production takes years, ofc lots of people who got excited about the project when it was announced lose interest on the way, but nothing to do.

[Taleweaver]

Btw thinking positively some unfinished projects may still be finished one day, the fact that they look dead doesn't mean they really are.

I beg to differ. If something looks dead and hasn't moved for year, it is very probably dead.

Look at Pet Project II: Heavy Petting, a community-wide effort to create an episodic VN. Just read the progress report to get an idea about how a project can die.

At some point, even though two thirds of the people involved with the project had finished their tasks and the community as a whole was still motivated to get the rest done, it just didn't happen. The project just sat there for months with nothing moving, nothing coming together, no visible results anyone could get excited about.

In the end, when the project was dropped, no one was even interested in picking up the pieces. And that's something that happens more often than not.

[trooper6]

Btw thinking positively some unfinished projects may still be finished one day, the fact that they look dead doesn't mean they really are.

I beg to differ. If something looks dead and hasn't moved for year, it is very probably dead.

This is why I never made a Work In Progress thread for my VN.

I started work on my little, 15-minute VN in 2013. And my progress is really slow due to work things. If I had a thread someone might have assumed that it was dead because it looked like nothing has moved in a year. But I'm still working on it. And I'm in a space where I'm going to be able to make some great strides forward in a few weeks. (Commissioned an artist for example).

I may be slow, but I'm working on it. It isn't an "unfinished" VN...just a slow progress VN.

[Quelcezot]

Btw thinking positively some unfinished projects may still be finished one day, the fact that they look dead doesn't mean they really are. It's quite common that production takes years, ofc lots of people who got excited about the project when it was announced lose interest on the way, but nothing to do.

I agree with this. There's no harm in staying positive. To me it seems there is not any problem, even when people do leave the work they start unfinished.

They will learn from that, and in some cases inspire others.

[MoonByte]

Btw thinking positively some unfinished projects may still be finished one day, the fact that they look dead doesn't mean they really are. It's quite common that production takes years, ofc lots of people who got excited about the project when it was announced lose interest on the way, but nothing to do.

There is also a thing called "Nothing new to show".
If a team works on a game, it can usually produce results very fast (I had games finished in as little as 10 days to 17 hours and those were in full 3D). But I would assume, most people here work alone or with maybe one more person (that does something entirely different, like working on the programming while the other does art). Doing loads and loads of artwork takes time and nothing happening doesn't necessarily equal "nothing being done".
Same goes of course, if the art was finished, but the script/text is in the work. Unless the script has some impressive visual result, it will often end with the thread becoming inactive while the team works on it.

I myself have a RPG Maker XP project that I announced end of 2014. I regulary updated it until mid-2015, then I simply ran out of new things to show because it was only polishing, inserting the last scripts and testing. Of course people ask, if the project is still alive to which I can of course say that it IS. But there is no sense spamming screens that haven't changed (or may spoil something, just for the sake of showing something new).

And similar things happen with VNs.

[Amecha]

I feel like WiPs are a good way to shoot yourself in the foot as a creator. Unless the vast majority of the groundwork, if not all of it, is already in place its best to err on the side of not showing it to anyone. Like take me an "artist". I don't finish even a quarter (probably less) of the all the things I draw on any given day, or week, or month. I just don't. It takes someone who is seasoned, mature, and well disciplined to finish what they start.
It's very easy to give up on something. Much easier than finishing it.
As an artist, I call any drawing I'm doing that doesn't have lineart a "sketch" or "doodle" because lineart is the make or break part of most of my drawings and if I have trouble with it I'll often drop it. I'd rather not spend a bunch of time frustrating myself trying to get it right when I should move on and look at it later to see what I did wrong. After the lineart is finished its mostly safe to show off as a WiP.
As for VNs it doesn't translate exactly but I think once you have the entire ground work laid out and your just polishing it would be safe to post it as a WiP. Because at that point there is no reason to drop it. Hell you could release it as is, it probably will be a little wonky but its practically done. And because its practically done the person or people making it will have that motivation to finish it. If I stop working on a drawing where the lineart is only 75% done there is a much higher possibility of me never coming back to it than if the lineart was finished. Hell, I have a drawing right now that I completely dropped because I didn't finish lining the mouths and one of the characters arms and I just flat out don't want to even try to go back to it. I'm going to try and make myself anyways but if I had set it down when the lineart was finished I would have almost definitely finished already.

So the reason so many WiPs don't get finish and die out is because they showed it too soon. I mean sure if you account for every WiP of everything everyone is making that they aren't talking about or you don't know about I'd say its safe to say that 90% of all of those things wont get completed. And that's okay. Its only becomes a loss once you become aware of it.

[MoonByte]

So the reason so many WiPs don't get finish and die out is because they showed it too soon. I mean sure if you account for every WiP of everything everyone is making that they aren't talking about or you don't know about I'd say its safe to say that 90% of all of those things wont get completed. And that's okay. Its only becomes a loss once you become aware of it.

I would NOT agree with that.
I think, WIPs are a very personal thing as is how people react and interact with them.
You may feel discouraged by them unless you're already far in and that is legit and fine, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as claim that it is a general thing, not even among artists.
I for oce am a BITCH for WIPs. I love them, I NEED them.
They are my motivation, my inspiration, I gather my will to work from them.
If my WIP is not reaping interest, I may drop the project simply because I see the lack of interest. If it is well-received, then I will feel pressure, positive one that is. It's like making a bet and telling everyone to make it impossible to sneak out of it.

But in my case, WIP are an integral part of my process. In fact, in my study (I study Game Arts as an actual profession), I am required to create a blog for every single course-related project of mine and to update it at least once a week with my research, thoughts, sketches, designs and meshes. You get used to show how you work, how you progress. How to feel about yet unfinished things and how they fuel you.
But it's not something that works for everyone, I know plenty in my course that make the obligatory minimum of six posts all at the end and don't get any pleasure out of it. BUT nobody here is forced to make a WIP. You could make your game in silence and simply present it once finished, if one is uncomfortable otherwise.
And honestly, I think all the unfinished projects have less to do with someones attitude to WIPs. For most, the idea of myking a game is a sweet dream that turns sour when they notice the hard work it needs, the long time it takes. That they won't turn out to be the next instant American McGee or Toby Fox that gets known by name in the gaming world for their first game.
I've seen it in the RPG Maker boards years ago as I do here. Making games has become easier, but an interesting game is still not something you make on one weekend. Some people don't get that and jump head first into the mud.
And those that do get it and one day finish it may take months and years and possibly just not update their thread, for lack of time, lack of things to show, lack of motivation or all of that.

[Royality]

Again what i notice while using this forum now. (And again, i think this is also the main reason). The amount of interest people get on this forums. The most people are just browsing through this forum. And thats... it. People that are showing their work, and working really hard on their game comes here to see what people think about it. Critism is important while creating a game. And once people don't get any respond to it. They give up faster. So maybe next time , try to post next time more on people that are creating a game. Just say you like it or don't like it. That's the purpose of these forums. To interact over visual novels. Not just browsing around.

Ofcourse i have to admit. Some people are trying to make visual novels that are impossible to create. 1 million words , 30 endings, 20 characters etc. But there are many project's here that seems to be doing great. And i hope for everyone that come's here with an idea, that can finish their game soon. Not leaving people that are interessted waiting for ever.

[Fuseblower]

Again what i notice while using this forum now. (And again, i think this is also the main reason). The amount of interest people get on this forums. The most people are just browsing through this forum. And thats... it. People that are showing their work, and working really hard on their game comes here to see what people think about it. Critism is important while creating a game. And once people don't get any respond to it. They give up faster. So maybe next time , try to post next time more on people that are creating a game. Just say you like it or don't like it. That's the purpose of these forums. To interact over visual novels. Not just browsing around.

Yeah, that's a bit disconcerting. A week or so ago I decided not to click my own WiP thread to see how many people besides myself where viewing it : 5 views in 2 days... We're talking simple views here, not even comments. And this was after I updated the thread with a new post so the thread was at the top of the forum. From that I can only conclude that people are simply not interested. And who knows? Those 5 views might even have been bots.

I could have played World of Warcraft instead of trying to make a VN! Whatever epic, ill-fated world-PvP my Gnome, The Ultimate Mage of Darkmoon Faire, is performing generates a hell of a lot more interest in 2 minutes than my WiP thread in 2 days. DAMN YOU WRAITHOS! I will have my revenge! You haven't seen the last of Tynara Fuseblower! (yep, I named my account here after my WoW main)

But getting a better idea while still working on the previous one is what makes my VNs fail.

Even a "simple" medium like the VN is a lot of work as I'm sure everybody here can attest to. If you really want to work on something else and then see that whatever it is you are working on currently doesn't interest anyone then it's very easy to stop.

Heck! If my drawings don't please anyone then at least I can please myself and draw some hentai instead

I'm certainly not judging people for not viewing my threads. Not viewing a thread is an "honest critique" in itself in my opinion. The fault is mine alone if I can't make people interested enough to view it.

BUT (as you say) if people are interested then they should let it know.

[MoonByte]

To interact over visual novels. Not just browsing around.

Though some are difficult to "judge".
I myself am not interested in a few things and when the title is properly tagged (and in my opinion, all should be to raise interest), the tags will determine whether or not I look into it.
I mean, even something so simple as BxB, GxG, GxB or BxG can draw entirely different people into a thread and that's just Dating Sim, genre of game of god knows how many.
I think, the better the tags, the more likely it is to draw views. It's no promise, but a start.
If I enjoy fantasy, BxB and humour, then tags that somehow allude that will naturally at least make me take a peek, even when I didn't come with the intention to look at any games.

But yeah, looking at the work of others can be difficult, I suppose.
An RPG Maker board that I had been a member of until recently had tried to keep members interested and especially interested in each other by having regular contests. Very basic things like "Make a picture with a 2 page description of an Antagonist" over "Create a Screenshot to the the topic Summertime" up to "You have one month, make a game about the ocean that can be played in min 10 min and max 1 hour".
Here, there is just NaNoRenO and quite frankly...
I don't know ANY member here by name other than two (and those are admins/mods), even when I see the avatars of more regular members sometimes. In that old board, it was like having friends, I knew at least 20 other members with just a side glance of their icon (or even just by how their game looked).
You are always invested in what your friends are up to since friends always garner what I call "friendly rivaly", so I enjoyed to look up what those 20 members were doing, what they thought of my stuff, critique felt good because you got to know the other. Here everyone is a stranger who's barely interested in what others do (exceptions exist).

So I'd say, if the issue is less the people that make games and more those that don't interact with the ideas and games presented, then it may be worth considering to do something to actually TIE PEOPLE TO THE ENGINE.
Make the people engage, play around. There are some that fail simple scripts already (I was naturally guilty of that as well). By making small contests, people learn the engine playfully, they FINISH GAMES, they get experience and build a relationship with the board and the engine. Those that regulary join the events will naturally become members that others value and recognize.
Look at Game Jams, if you always go to the same site, you will find FRIENDS and make great stuff. Even if you see these people literally for only a weekend once a year.
So if we are talking about people not interacting enough with the games of OTHERS and less with how people interact with their own projects, then I'd say: offer them something that draws them to the board at least as much as the hope on having gotten a comment on their game and we're talking!

[Amecha]

So the reason so many WiPs don't get finish and die out is because they showed it too soon. I mean sure if you account for every WiP of everything everyone is making that they aren't talking about or you don't know about I'd say its safe to say that 90% of all of those things wont get completed. And that's okay. Its only becomes a loss once you become aware of it.

I would NOT agree with that.
I think, WIPs are a very personal thing as is how people react and interact with them.
You may feel discouraged by them unless you're already far in and that is legit and fine, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as claim that it is a general thing, not even among artists.
I for oce am a BITCH for WIPs. I love them, I NEED them.
They are my motivation, my inspiration, I gather my will to work from them.
If my WIP is not reaping interest, I may drop the project simply because I see the lack of interest. If it is well-received, then I will feel pressure, positive one that is. It's like making a bet and telling everyone to make it impossible to sneak out of it.

But in my case, WIP are an integral part of my process. In fact, in my study (I study Game Arts as an actual profession), I am required to create a blog for every single course-related project of mine and to update it at least once a week with my research, thoughts, sketches, designs and meshes. You get used to show how you work, how you progress. How to feel about yet unfinished things and how they fuel you.
But it's not something that works for everyone, I know plenty in my course that make the obligatory minimum of six posts all at the end and don't get any pleasure out of it. BUT nobody here is forced to make a WIP. You could make your game in silence and simply present it once finished, if one is uncomfortable otherwise.
And honestly, I think all the unfinished projects have less to do with someones attitude to WIPs. For most, the idea of myking a game is a sweet dream that turns sour when they notice the hard work it needs, the long time it takes. That they won't turn out to be the next instant American McGee or Toby Fox that gets known by name in the gaming world for their first game.
I've seen it in the RPG Maker boards years ago as I do here. Making games has become easier, but an interesting game is still not something you make on one weekend. Some people don't get that and jump head first into the mud.
And those that do get it and one day finish it may take months and years and possibly just not update their thread, for lack of time, lack of things to show, lack of motivation or all of that.

That last bit, "some people don't get that and jump head first into the mud." is exactly what I meant. On a forum like this no one is a AAA developer posting a WiP. The vast majority of people here have one or two skill sets that they're combining into this game and trying their best to make a dream come true, to make a game. All of us are either indie developers and we want to be one, and hence we don't have the self discipline needed to follow through with everything we do.
And in your case, these blogs that your making for your projects, yes that is an integral part of planning out and completing a project, and by making these and showing your work its teaching you how to be disciplined, how to maintain motivation, keep your work organized and create progress reports because in a team of developers you'll be doing these activities together and showing them to the guy above you so they know you're progressing. And if you're working alone you're making this progress reports to show yourself that things are getting done and keeping a plan for yourself. And no point is it required to show this to outside people but for the purpose of the class that's what you're doing.
The problem with WiPs from a consumers side of things is they never get done and the vast majority of them die out but on the creator's side of things the problem is they don't have the self discipline to finish what they start and their problem is that they've posted their work too soon, at a stage where it could easily be dropped.
Yes, WiPs are a personal experience and may help with keeping motivated or whatever but the question posed, and my answer was that they don't have discipline and the vast majority of them will just be dropped anyways so the problem is that the WiP was posted at all. Because we're talking in a general sense and not about specific people like you.
The problem with WiPs being dropped is that they're WiPs. And more so, WiPs made by inexperienced people.

[Fuseblower]

Look at Game Jams, if you always go to the same site, you will find FRIENDS and make great stuff. Even if you see these people literally for only a weekend once a year.
So if we are talking about people not interacting enough with the games of OTHERS and less with how people interact with their own projects, then I'd say: offer them something that draws them to the board at least as much as the hope on having gotten a comment on their game and we're talking!

Game jams sound pretty good to me. The NaNoReNo contest hardly qualifies as such. We had over a 100 projects and most seem to have been solo-ed.

Of course, the duration of the jam should be more than 3 days (given the availability of people). Let's say a month.

A premise for a visual novel should be presented by an authority figure (Tom) to give it legitimacy.

I think such a premise should be more than "make a VN about the ocean" though. It should have a rough outline and contain required characters and setting. I'm not sure about how accurate the description of the game should be. On the one hand : giving only a superficial premise like "about the ocean" gives teams free reign but on the other hand : "about 3 women who buy a haunted diner" gives a better handle for planning assets. I think creativity works best within restrictions and not in full freedom. But that's just my opinion.

With the premise in place in its own thread, people can send in ideas about assets. Sprite designs, CG sketches, backgrounds ideas, musical compositions, logo's, dialog examples/story outlines, GUI stuff, etc. This way people can present themselves for the roles they see themselves fit for. Of course, people could offer themselves for more than 1 role (one who does sprites could also do backgrounds). But I feel it's best when people only fill a single role when it comes to making the game and I also feel it's best if a single role is performed only by 1 person. But, that too, is just my opinion. Also, the question arises : what are the roles? I think they are : writer, sprite designer, CG designer, BG designer, GUI designer, programmer, sound designer and musician (I guess those last two could be optional).

Let's say people are given a week to post their ideas about assets.

After that : teams are formed. How are the teams formed? People could look each other up, or we could leave it to chance or we let Tom decide.

Each team gets its own thread.

Now that we have teams working on the same thing, we'll have (friendly) rivalry in place! That's also a reason to get the premise somewhat precise. The premise should be open enough for a team to give their own spin to it but precise enough so that all the teams are working on essentially the same thing.

I believe there could well be a demand for jams, given the amount of people who signed up for NaNo2016.

The above are just some ideas I have about a RenPy jam (actually, they're gospel, but I'm attempting reverse psychology )

[Katta]

I actually like your idea about the teamwork jam and I agree that people would be more interested and thus support more projects of the creators they know (not only for the previous games but from activities like jams too). I don't think such a jam absolutely requires a person of authority to run it, so you can surely host it too))
The reason why people participate in jams solo is because they have more chances of finishing this way, too many people volunteer and then disappear, which makes me wonder if the goal of the jam being teamwork will somehow lessen the number of such people. I also don't think forcing people into a team is a good idea, maybe more like helping potential team members to find each other somehow.

[Lodratio]

I feel like WiPs are a good way to shoot yourself in the foot as a creator. Unless the vast majority of the groundwork, if not all of it, is already in place its best to err on the side of not showing it to anyone. Like take me an "artist". I don't finish even a quarter (probably less) of the all the things I draw on any given day, or week, or month. I just don't. It takes someone who is seasoned, mature, and well disciplined to finish what they start.
It's very easy to give up on something. Much easier than finishing it.
As an artist, I call any drawing I'm doing that doesn't have lineart a "sketch" or "doodle" because lineart is the make or break part of most of my drawings and if I have trouble with it I'll often drop it. I'd rather not spend a bunch of time frustrating myself trying to get it right when I should move on and look at it later to see what I did wrong. After the lineart is finished its mostly safe to show off as a WiP.

You're making a very good point. We really shouldn't announce projects until we're sure we want to go through with them.
I don't even think that it's the mark of a "seasoned, mature, well disciplined" person to finish everything they start. If you're being honest with yourself, and trying to improve in your craft, you should drop things when they don't work out, instead of wasting time and energy fixing them. You don't improve as an artist by trying to fix a single painting over and over again, but by going through iterations and variations and gradually getting closer to your ideal throughout the course of many paintings. It's the same for writing. All the writers I look up to have huge amounts of unfinished stuff. Most of it isn't wasted effort. It became a part of their later work, or at least showed them how to avoid problems they ran into earlier. If they'd posted about everything they did on their facebook page, people would have gotten angry at them for not finishing what they start, and they would have felt obligated to finish things they really should have dropped, and never gotten to the point where their writing became really good.

The problem with social media is that people need to create exposure for their work as soon as possible, to keep their audience interested in their work and give them time to spread the word about the next 'big thing' before the release date. And it's really true that doing that is important. For the business aspect of being a writer it's absolutely essential that you keep people from forgetting that you exist. Most of your sales happen right after you put your work out there, so you need people to already be aware of its existence at that point. However, it's a huge hindrance for the creative aspects of writing, not to mention that keeping people updated on what you're doing is really tedious and sometimes even stressful.

TL;DR: Work on your project instead of posting about it if you care about the project itself, work on your project while posting about it and risk burning out if you're trying to make a living as a writer/artist.

[MoonByte]

I also don't think forcing people into a team is a good idea, maybe more like helping potential team members to find each other somehow.

I would disagree. I've been on the Global Game Jam for the last five years and there was always the strict rule "At least 2 people". I had ONE year where two people in the end made their game single and those were staff members that had kept the jam going behind the scenes and simply only had a few hours to make something on their own.
Usually, you get a topic (it can be one word, a feeling, A SOUND, anything goes) and then those with an idea have a bit of time (often 1 or 2 hours) to think of a game. And then those participating can approach the person who's idea sounded interesting. If someone's unlucky and nobody joins them (never saw that happen though), they can also just approach another group, since the max. limit is open.
And usually, more people doesn't ruin it. I saw teams without a single artist, they made it work. I saw teams of only artists, they learned how to get simple gameplay running fast. It isn't something to win a prize with, but you can look at it at the end and say "Me, Cookie, Mel123 and BottleTrow did this and it turned out AWESOME!"
The teams can work on the game like that or include "diversifiers", a list offered by the GGJ with things that would limit the game, but they're optional. Stuff like "all sounds, including music, have to be made with the human mouth" or "use only three colors" or "No human characters" or whatever.
Limits at first sound surpressing, but they are incredibly inspiring.

As an example:
The GGJ this year had "ritual" as topic and about 20 diversifiers. From the 16 teams that had formed at my place, only one had no diversifier and two others less than two. The rest worked with them, with one having at least half of them. And no game was even slightly similar. We had animals doing a mating dance, natives summoning crazy gods, a witch making magical potions, a man placing flowers on graveyards, a french guy getting drunk during german carnival, a wolf sacrificing a sheep to some crazy entity in the sky that looked like a frog. Totally different, very fun and no team felt like the limitations stopped them at any point, instead they embraced them and made the idea come up from what they wanted to do WITH the limits.
And I would know, I was staff member on the last two jams WHILE participating, so I talked with all teams and watched them progress. The only diversifier that nobody at my location used was Marco Polo (no visuals), but other places used that and made a game for deaf people because really? WHY NOT?
I think, it would be a great opportunity to get to know other people. It is a great opportunity to challenge yourself. And honestly, the tighter the rules, the more likely it is that people will come up with something cool.

If I say "Prison", then you may fear that literally everyone makes a game about some dude escaping prison, but EVERYONE thinks of that. And thats boring, people don't want to make boring games. They want to surprise, to challenge, to make people want to play their stuff.
Tada, suddenly you will find that of 20 groups, 2 went with an actual prison and the rest will be games about a bird randalizing in it's cage, about a dude sneaking out of the retirement home, about a guy building a boat to escape from his island, about hackers and maybe even someone making up a sentence out of it ("Political Racist Institution Of Namibia"?) and just run out of the topic while laughing like a woman that won the lottery, being freed from the surpression.
It will not be boring. Even if we would try to nail it down to leave no breathing space, there will be ways to run out, it's in human nature. "Knight in heavy armor riding a dragon" sounds tight, but you can ask 100 people and you WILL find samurais on asian dragons, grannys on dachshund dragons and whatnot, simply to prove that they CAN break out of rules without disobeying them

(Actually, I really feel tempted to plan a jam like that right now...)