Non-Japanese related topics / threads in Japanese Stuff area

[lordcloudx]

But I'm still gonna reply just because I can.

well... they did feature a bunch of artists from my country working in japanese animation studios in an old tv documentary.

and about the english breakfast thingy... yes! Just because I heard some american girls complaining in a filipino restaurant about the pizza not being authentic american style pizza despite the advertising because the ingredients came from Philippine soil so there!

Well your opinion is your opinion, but it's really dificult to differentiate if you don't know the origin - an unknown artist, a Japanese artist with other-country roots, a project made half-and-half by Japanese and non-Japanese

I'd still call it anime if it originated from a japanese studio of course. Strange Dawn which was a collaboration with france for example.

If there was an anonymous artist whose origin would never be revealed... would he make manga or non-manga?

Depends on him?

I'm not saying that style is unimportant, there are japanese artists drawing non-manga and non-anime style too. Perhaps as animation progresses, the line between foreign and japanese made anime will become so vague that everyone will just call them cartoons.

but... If I could somehow tell the difference, I still would.

[PyTom]

and about the english breakfast thingy... yes! Just because I heard some american girls complaining in a filipino restaurant about the pizza not being authentic american style pizza despite the advertising because the ingredients came from Philippine soil so there!

Hah! Everyone knows it's impossible to get a good pizza more than about 100 miles from new york city. (I'd convert to metric, but if you use metric, it means that you're more than 100 miles away from new york, and therefore can't get a good pizza.)

[Jake]

Something like the famous "English breakfast". They serve you ham and eggs and whatever in a Johannesburg restaurant and it's English breakfast. But is it?

Actually, this is a good example of my way of thinking. I mean - I'm English, and I literally can't remember the last time I ate bacon, sausages, eggs, black sausage and so on for breakfast!
'English Muffins' are worse, because the English make muffins, but they don't make 'em anything like that. But these phrases have become the common name for those items, it's what everyone recognises them as, and thus that's what they're called and that's what those words mean.

Hah! Everyone knows it's impossible to get a good pizza more than about 100 miles from new york city.

However, being fairly pleased with the pizza I make myself, I cannot help but take mortal offence at this! These are fighting words!

Although I must confess, despite having been brought up metric I use 'cups' to measure out the flour for the dough... :/

[monele]

Let's just not talk about french fries ...

Anyway, Jake's view on this seems the most objective, even though I might think otherwise when faced with the problem XD. Or... or maybe it depends on what the word is supposed to represent... is it a geographic origin or a group of features?
If it's about features, then, you can say that most of the first "american animes" were not really animes, because while the graphics were similar, the plot and concerns were still closer to regular cartoons. Though I know there have been recent american animes which are said to be quite good in terms of storytelling.
If it's about geography... mh... well it's actually hard to see how it could be totally linked to geography ^^;... Only geographical things could be only linked to geography . There can't really be a french Mount Fuji :3... But yeah, there could be "french animes" I suppose.

Oh... and there is the translation thingie too.... anime = cartoon = dessin animé = ... whatever else in other languages.
Something interesting : what do japanese call our cartoons?... "kaatuun"? or "anime"?

[kara24601]

French fries...I used to be a big eater of regular fries / french fries but eventually dropped 'em in favor of curly fries. I still love regular fries every now and then but curly fries from Hardy's or Arby's are just soooo good that regular fries are wimpy in comparison. Plus , of course , they have that fun shape that gives them their name. I think I haven't had them much but I also love "waffle" fries and big fries....

[PyTom]

But yeah, there could be "french animes" I suppose.

I've actually seen episodes of several series that arguably fall into this designation. (Code Lyoko comes to mind.)

[lordcloudx]

haay tak-an ko sa inyo a!

anywayz, after getting some sleep, I'm gonna refute some arguments.

BMW, Motorrad etc all refer to a generic thing, a motor vehicle or car.

Anime/Manga originated in japan although their actual meanings are still being debated on to this very day. I fail to see the connection in the analogy. Non sequitur so to speak.

Whether it is a style or a whether it is based on style and country of origin is not set in stone. So until that point is resolved, (which it won't be in the near future from what I can see.) my statement still stands.

Consider: Greek Art versus Roman Art, the two are virtually identical, yet to this very day people still make a distinction. That's because the greeks were the originals and the romans simply copied their art because they liked it, but they will always be just an emulation and nothing more. It's not just about the characteristics anymore, but about both characteristics and origin. (definitely not silly)

As for the shady origins argument, once the origin has been determined then we can make a distinction but whether we choose to or not is definitely up to the individual.

The references to food were just funny, that's all.

monele: the japanese call anything that's animated anime I think. Can anyone confirm this?

[mokenju1]

Consider: Greek Art versus Roman Art, the two are virtually identical, yet to this very day people still make a distinction. That's because the greeks were the originals and the romans simply copied their art because they liked it, but they will always be just an emulation and nothing more. It's not just about the characteristics anymore, but about both characteristics and origin. (definitely not silly)

Well, the romans adapted de greek mithology to fit their own (Jupiter=Zeus, Diana=Artemisa,etc ), but it was more a matter of "Wow, wouldn't it be cool that we could see Jupiter in a human form like the Greeks do with their gods, that placing in the ground a spear and behave like it is Jupiter? " (Yep, they were kind of primitive before they stole the greek art ), that they really wanted to have the same gods.
But they had to think "Umm.... Zeus could look like our Jupiter, ergo we are going to use the same image.", knowing that Zeus and Jupiter were not the same thing. That doesn't mean that later they didn't atribute Zeus' stories to Jupiter because they thought that were cool stories. (Also they integrated to their own mithology, greek and other foreign gods later, they fancied even Egiptian gods when they turned to their mistic side ).

So, would you say that there is no roman art (or roman mithology), because they copied the style of the greek art to make their own creations ? What is most important: the form, the meaning or who created the thing?

[lordcloudx]

I think you misunderstood me mokenju1. I didn't say that Roman art is not art. It's just not Greek art, but rather an adaptation of Greek art. What you said about mythology is true inescapably, everything is just an abstraction of something else.

The importance between the form and the creator is another issue for debate. For me, both are equally important.

Also, why is everyone trying so hard to refute my opinion that I've already stated as such?

[mokenju1]

I think you misunderstood me mokenju1. I didn't say that Roman art is not art. It's just not Greek art, but rather an adaptation of Greek art. What you said about mythology is true inescapably, everything is just an abstraction of something else.

The importance between the form and the creator is another issue for debate. For me, both are equally important.

Sorry, but I thought that you were trying to say that as a foreign who creates a manga-style comic isn't creating a manga, a roman who was emulating the style of the greek art wasn't creating art. My apologies

Also, why is everyone trying so hard to refute my opinion that I've already stated as such?

Because the point of a good debate is to try to convince everyone that who agrees with your theory is right and everyone else is wrong. .

[Counter Arts]

Hehe... you might want to be careful even in saying that.

People might want to debate what's the purpose of debate and it's uses.

[mikey]

Also, why is everyone trying so hard to refute my opinion that I've already stated as such?

We have our argumentative phase right now ^_^

Hmmm however - there is an interesting trademark issue related to this, for instance you have EU laws which say you can call certain beverages a certain way (cognac or whatever) only if they are brewed/prepared in a certain way, have a certain percentage of alcohol etc. This is to prevent cheap alcohol or parasiting on tradition etc... And actually, this is what I understood as your point - if you have such rules by which you can define "anime", then it all becomes clear. But I don't think that the Japanese origin can be the defining criteria in the long term, since nothing as wide as anime really ever held the territorial definition criteria, except on some occasions food - Toscana Olive Oil or similar, and even that had to prove that there was a unique feature to it that can only occur in Toscana for example.

[Jake]

BMW, Motorrad etc all refer to a generic thing, a motor vehicle or car.

Anime/Manga originated in japan although their actual meanings are still being debated on to this very day. I fail to see the connection in the analogy. Non sequitur so to speak.

I disagree. The way I see it, there are three options.

The first option is that 'manga' is just the Japanese word for 'comic', in the same way that 'Motorrad' is the German word for 'motorcycle' (assuming my German is still functioning), in which case we - as non-Japanese - shouldn't use the word at all, not even for things from Japan. Karekano should be 'a comic', not 'a manga'. This would make the whole debate moot, as we would just be rejecting the use of the term entirely so its meaning is irrelevant. Since manga is just the Japanese word for 'comic' and in Japanese it is (to the best of my knowledge) a generic noun for any old comic, the Motorrad analogy is far from irrelevant.

The second option is that Japanese comics are typically different enough from Western comics that they need a different term to distinguish them, in the same way that ham and bacon, while fundamentally both being pork, are different enough to warrant different names. If this were the case, then it would logically follow that any comic which has these characteristics should get the same name, regardless of whether or not it originated in Japan, because the purpose of the name is to distinguish based on these characteristics. (This is broadly the option I'd adhere to.)

The third option is that the English-speaking world - or at the least, the world outside Japan - has adopted the word 'manga' as a new English (or whatever) term to specifically refer to comics from Japan, in the same way that "Frenchman" is an English term specifically used to refer to men from France; I presume this is the option you prefer.
However, realistically I think that this is the least useful option of the three - the only thing that it distinguishes is the country of origin, but the country of origin is of absolutely no use to me whatsoever in determining anything about the comic. It doesn't tell me a genre, a graphic style (and there are plenty of comics drawn in Japan by Japanese people that aren't drawn in that stereotypical 'manga style'), a plot structure type, a storytelling method... nothing. So what's the point of having the term in the first place? It would only really be useful to the average comics-consumer as a shorthand when discussing the state of comics industries in different countries, and since such shorthands don't exist for British comics, American comics, European comics, Middle-Eastern comics or any other geographical regions, there's little gain from it there, either.

(The only other reason I can think of to want to do this is to placate the 'wapanese' Japanophile set, but that really isn't nearly a good enough reason to predicate the meaning of a word on, to my eye.)

Consider: Greek Art versus Roman Art, the two are virtually identical, yet to this very day people still make a distinction.

However, note that you're using the same word - 'art' - to refer to them both, and it's an English word, not Greek or Roman. If we used the Greek word for 'art' to refer to Greek art and just called Roman art 'art', this would support your position, but really this is just an example of the first option I describe above. Applying the same logic to this argument you should call manga 'Japanese comics'...

Also, why is everyone trying so hard to refute my opinion that I've already stated as such?

Well, there are two answers to this, for me. The first one is because you're by your own admission ("I'm gonna refute some arguments") trying so hard to refute my opinion, which leads me to conclude it's something you actually want to discuss. The second one is simply that I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, but the fact that our opinions differ significantly and both of us claim a sound basis for our positions leads me to want to find out what actual fundamental points we differ on in case you've thought of some rationale I might want to modify my own opinion by.



The thing with the trademark laws in the EU is an interesting modification of the point, though - Parma Ham has to come from Parma, and so on - but these names do include a geographical location as part of their name, so there's also the argument that to use 'Parma Ham' to advertise something not produced in Parma is actually fraudulent advertising. Personally I think that whole set of laws is silly anyway, and that 'Parma Ham' (and most other such trademarks/names) passed into the realm of generic terms ages ago...

[mikey]

The thing with the trademark laws in the EU is an interesting modification of the point, though - Parma Ham has to come from Parma, and so on - but these names do include a geographical location as part of their name, so there's also the argument that to use 'Parma Ham' to advertise something not produced in Parma is actually fraudulent advertising. Personally I think that whole set of laws is silly anyway, and that 'Parma Ham' (and most other such trademarks/names) passed into the realm of generic terms ages ago...

Agreed, they are already in most of the cases generic terms, although naturally there has to be a certain procedure and ingredients to make "Parma Ham", and that's perfectly fine, since procedure and ingredients is what it should describe. But as you mentioned before, the country of origin (where it was first invented) isn't really relevant (apart from the historical POV that documents why it's called Parma Ham and why the world started to use this name for this kind of ham), so it's the way and specs of the product (see McDonald's Big Mac) that's the real point. For manga they may be defined even 99,9% or whatever by Japanese artists, but especially in these times when actual countries and cultures interact more and more, the definition of something like manga is really less and less a matter of the nations and more that of (increasingly international) communities.

[lordcloudx]

tch. fine then. Here's my answer.

I disagree. The way I see it, there are three options.

And pardon me for not quoting all that other stuff. I'd have to agree with your option three. You're right that's the option I prefer.

However, note that you're using the same word - 'art' - to refer to them both, and it's an English word, not Greek or Roman. If we used the Greek word for 'art' to refer to Greek art and just called Roman art 'art', this would support your position, but really this is just an example of the first option I describe above. Applying the same logic to this argument you should call manga 'Japanese comics'...

As for this one, of course art is a generic english term. As is animation but not anime. Back to greek and roman art, that didn't stop the various authors of school-texts on mythology from making the differentiation did it now? I'll leave it at that.
and I'll call manga whatever I please thank you. I do call manga japanese comics but I won't call any other country's comics manga.

Well, there are two answers to this, for me. The first one is because you're by your own admission ("I'm gonna refute some arguments") trying so hard to refute my opinion, which leads me to conclude it's something you actually want to discuss. The second one is simply that I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, but the fact that our opinions differ significantly and both of us claim a sound basis for our positions leads me to want to find out what actual fundamental points we differ on in case you've thought of some rationale I might want to modify my own opinion by.

Jez fine. I did want this discussion to continue but another reason was that I wanted to defend my own opinion which I felt had been challenged even though I specifically stated that it was just my opinion when you quoted me... but reading back a few posts coupled with the clarification you just made, It seems it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

Or that and the fact that someone else indirectly called my first post on this question silly.

Because the point of a good debate is to try to convince everyone that who agrees with your theory is right and everyone else is wrong. Laughing .

That's the purpose of a good debater I believe but we're really just having a spontaneous argument rather than a debate. The purpose of a true formal debate is to gather useful information from the affirmative and the negative side on an unresolved issue in a controlled environment with set parameters, definition of terms etc etc. The purpose of a contest debate is to test the debating skills of the participants. blibble bla bla

edit: A few things for mikey's post.

-The practice of drawing huge eyes in anime came from copying characters from older american shows and because the big eyes are considered more friendly by japanese audiences

-Characters are often portrayed in bloomers during p.e. sessions because this is the way actual students in japan dress

-Until recently pubic hair was not drawn in nude characters (for some reason which I forgot.)

-The hairstyles which sometimes defy the laws of physics and their colors are used to distinguish the characters

-women's voices in japanese anime are often deliberately high-pitched because the japs believe that a high-pitched voice is more feminine.

From what I can remember from the intro of a very old vhs... or something.

Yah so I'm just gonna say unless animations from other countries which use the anime-styled drawings can claim to have originated their art style in the exact same way as japanese anime, then they still cannot claim to be producing anime, but only anime-styled animations or emulations as I like to call them.